The Minstrel's Muse and Den of the Wolf

[schrecklich 0]

 Have you tried asking FFG for clarification, ktom?  With Bara nobles being a competitive deck running 2x Power of Blood and more and more direct kill effects being printed (a small but slowly increasing number of which can be used in the pre-plot player action window), this issue will become somewhat relevant when eg a Stark or Targ player wants to try to kill a Bara noble piled up with power counters within the protected two turn span of Power of Bloods.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

You're missing something here. At the end of the round, the currently revealed plot is considered to have been moved to the "used" pile. But you have not revealed a new plot and put it on top yet. There is therefore a period of time during which you have no revealed plot. You can technically "see" the last plot you revealed, even though it is technically used, because you have no plot in the "revealed" state.

And this is just what I said. I'm not missing anything here. And because I have no plot in the "revealed" state, the constant effect of any other plot may not be active. I said "if plot is in used pile then it's not active - doesn't matter if I can see it." - I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter if you have "revealed" plot on top of used pile (can't see last used plot) or not (can see last used plot). I don't know, maybe it's my weak english.

ktom said:

So, is it the transfer of the a plot from "revealed" to "used" that deactivates it, or is it the revealing of a new plot that deactivates the last plot revealed?

Both. Otherwise what is the purpose of three states of plots? What is the purpose of the ruling about moving plot to the used pile at the end of the round?

ktom said:

Not necessarily. If it is the revealing of a new plot that deactivates the last plot revealed, then Power of Blood may still be applicable, regardless of its status as "revealed" or "used" in the pre-plot action window. It's ambiguous because FFG has never come out and said, one way or another, which way it should be.

Fear of Winter, though, with the "until you reveal a new plot" is not ambiguous because the text of the card gives the "ruling" for that card that FFG has never made in general.

Great. So, many players play many years, including worlds and regionals and nobody knows how to play with plots? It is important to know if I can protect my Nobles two round in a row or not. This is not minor thing.

And how can you tell that Fear of Winter is not a mistake, just like many other cards that needed errata or clarification?

[FATMOUSE 0]

Really interesting discussion on plots.  I have a somewhat related question.  If someone triggers Den of the Wolf to repeat the Plot phase, is First Player determined again or no because the round never ended?

[Rogue30 60]

FATMOUSE said:

If someone triggers Den of the Wolf to repeat the Plot phase, is First Player determined again or no because the round never ended?

I think the first player is chosen again.

[schrecklich 0]

Rogue30 said:

 

 

I think the first player is chosen again.

I'd agree since counting initiative and choosing the first player are framework events within the Plot phase that you can't skip over.