The Minstrel's Muse and Den of the Wolf

[mischraum.de 12]

I can't use this combination to get 6 power, can I?

[ktom 598]

mischraum.de said:

I can't use this combination to get 6 power, can I?

Why not?

[mischraum.de 12]

 I am not a native speaker. I guessed the IF you win dominance THIS ROUND would only trigger once.

Another thing: Character lose all immunities:

My opponent has den of the wolf, I have Cat of the canals. My cat keeps her immunity because den can't affect her immunity or she loses her immunity because characters lose ALL their immunities?

 

Btw. immunity is everything that includes the phrase "immune to" or is cannot be killed/discarded also an immunity? If yes, are there more immunities?

[Arthur Lannister 0]

mischraum.de said:

Another thing: Character lose all immunities:

My opponent has den of the wolf, I have Cat of the canals. My cat keeps her immunity because den can't affect her immunity or she loses her immunity because characters lose ALL their immunities?

 

Cat keeps is immunity. All cards immune to locations abilities will keep their immunities. You gave the reason why so no needs for explanations

 

mischraum.de said:

Btw. immunity is everything that includes the phrase "immune to" or is cannot be killed/discarded also an immunity? If yes, are there more immunities?

 

Cannot be killed/discarded are not immunities, they are passives abilities, I daresay. Only the "immune to" are immunities.

[schrecklich 0]

mischraum.de said:

 I am not a native speaker. I guessed the IF you win dominance THIS ROUND would only trigger once.

I agree with you that the card wording seems a bit funny on the first read (it seems like it was written to be understood most easily in the vast majority of cases when there is only dominance phase at the expense of clarity for the more general case).  Maybe one way explaining why your initial interpretation is not correct is to note that in AGoT all effects are either continuous ("always on" - like "All HS characters get +1 STR") or require a point of initiation.  The Minstrel's Muse involves gaining power so it is clearly one-time effect that requires a point of initiation.  The only timing reference on the card is the dominance count, so the effect must be resolved passively after the dominance count framework action window.  So you can think of the card text as being equivalent to "After you win dominance this round, claim three additional power for your house." My guess is that this wording was not used because it could be confusing to a newer player who might think that this card implies that he/she is somehow guaranteed to win dominance.

[ktom 598]

Another way to look at it:

Suppose a card said "If you win a military challenge this round, draw a card." What would happen if you won multiple military challenges (on defense, because of an Epic Battle card, etc.)? You still won a military challenge "this round," so you'd get to draw as many cards (to the draw cap, of course) as you won military challenges.

Same thing with the Den of the Wolf/Minstrel's Muse. There are ways to win Dominance multiple times "this round." It's just a lot more unlikely and unusual than winning multiple military challenges in a single round, so it seems like it should be different.

[Rogue30 60]

BTW Is this plot text a lasting effect? For example if I use Bran and change Muse for Fear of Winter, is Muse text still active?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

BTW Is this plot text a lasting effect? For example if I use Bran and change Muse for Fear of Winter, is Muse text still active?

No. It's a constant effect. Like all constant effects, it doesn't affect the game if it is not in play (or currently revealed as a plot). If switching plots with Bran left this active, switching plots with Bran would also leave things like Threat from the North or After the Mummer's Ford active.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

If switching plots with Bran left this active, switching plots with Bran would also leave things like Threat from the North or After the Mummer's Ford active.

Wait a minute, After the Mummer's Ford is lasting effect isn't it?

"Each player may initiate an additional M challenge this round."

I remember you said somewhere that "this round" works like "until the end of the phase".

[schrecklich 0]

 Rogue30, I think you have to look at the effects in context.  Plot cards occupy a bit different space from other cards since they can have continuous effects and passive effects (including ones other than "when revealed" effects) but have a finite duration "in play" (unlike events which leave play immediately and characters, attachments, and locations which typically stick around for an indefinite amount of time). The duration of a plot is typically one round so their effects often specify "this round," but I think that is just for clarity.  The effects are just continuous effects only working while revealed. So you can only initiate an extra challenge if After the Mummer's Ford is still revealed during your turn in the challenges phase.

Events and initiated character abilities on the other hand have a finite duration and disappear from play as soon as they have resolved, so there is nothing left in play to enforce the effect.  So something like Core Set Varys sets up a lasting effect that will switch plot decks at the end of the round whether Varys is still in play or not.

[Rogue30 60]

I play for a year and still have to read FAQ again

To summarize:

After the Mummer's Ford is a constant effect, because there is no point of initiation.

Mutual Cause has point of initiation, so it's a passive effect. Moreover it's lasting effect, because of "this round" - meaning it's working until the end of the phase (even if the plot goes to the used pile)

Correct?

[ktom 598]

Correct (except that Mutual Cause's duration takes it to the end of the round, not the phase, if it is replaced).

A lasting effect must have both a start and an end to its duration defined by the text. Revealing a plot is not, in and of itself, the start of a duration any more than playing a location is. So for the most part, without the "when revealed" text (or some other "after X happens"), a plot cannot create a lasting effect.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

(except that Mutual Cause's duration takes it to the end of the round, not the phase, if it is replaced).

"Round" of course, a mistake. Thanks.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

A lasting effect must have both a start and an end to its duration defined by the text. Revealing a plot is not, in and of itself, the start of a duration any more than playing a location is. So for the most part, without the "when revealed" text (or some other "after X happens"), a plot cannot create a lasting effect.

And Fear of Winter?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

ktom said:

 

A lasting effect must have both a start and an end to its duration defined by the text. Revealing a plot is not, in and of itself, the start of a duration any more than playing a location is. So for the most part, without the "when revealed" text (or some other "after X happens"), a plot cannot create a lasting effect.

 

 

And Fear of Winter?

Well, let's apply the general principle "a lasting effect must have both a start and an end to its duration defined by the text."

If Fear of Winter is a lasting effect, what is it's end point? What is its start point? If you can answer both of those from the text on the card, I'll agree it's a lasting effect. (Hint: It's not a lasting effect.)

[schrecklich 0]

 Hmm, I hadn't thought of Mutual Cause as setting up a lasting effect before. If I wanted to make a card like that the only worked while the plot was revealed would this text work:

"When revealed, if you have more than one opponent, choose an opponent. You and that opponent cannot declare P challenges against one another."

or would it need to say something like

"When revealed, if you have more than one opponent, choose an opponent. You and that opponent cannot declare P challenges as long as (this plot) is revealed." ?

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

(Hint: It's not a lasting effect.)

I feel ktomed now

Is it constant effect then? If yes, what's the purpose of "until you reveal a new plot card"? Is it unnecessary just like new Renly's "other" word?

[ktom 598]

schrecklich said:

"When revealed, if you have more than one opponent, choose an opponent. You and that opponent cannot declare P challenges against one another."

or would it need to say something like

"When revealed, if you have more than one opponent, choose an opponent. You and that opponent cannot declare P challenges as long as (this plot) is revealed." ?

Either one would work. In the first, you don't define an end point for the effect, so it defaults to "while this text is active." In the second, you define an end point of while the plot is revealed. Either would be acceptable.

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Is it constant effect then? If yes, what's the purpose of "until you reveal a new plot card"? Is it unnecessary just like new Renly's "other" word?

 

Not "unnecessary" so much as "preemptively explanatory."

It is a constant effect (there is no defined, specific starting point for the effect in the card's text, so there is no set duration and the "while active" default takes over). The purpose of the "until you reveal a new plot card" text is to make sure no one gets caught in that ambiguity of how plots are moved between "revealed" and "used" at the end of the round and understands that the pre-plot window of the next round is included in Fear of Winter's limitation.

Just to be perfectly clear: something has to resolve in order to create a lasting effect. In order for something to resolve, it must be initiated. Simply playing a card or revealing a plot is not the same as initiating an effect (for example, if you play a location that says "Characters get +1 STR while standing," the STR boost does not initiate when the card is played; the location simply comes into play and the constant effect impacts the game while said card is in play - similarly, the STR boost does not initiate when a character stands; the active boost simply becomes applicable to the character). You specifically need to trigger an effect or have a passive effect activate in order for a lasting effect to be created.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

the pre-plot window of the next round is included in Fear of Winter's limitation.

Included? Now I'm totally lost. How can it be included? The plot is in used pile and its effect is inactive, right?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

ktom said:

 

the pre-plot window of the next round is included in Fear of Winter's limitation.

 

Included? Now I'm totally lost. How can it be included? The plot is in used pile and its effect is inactive, right?

 

Welcome to the ambiguity of plots moving to the used pile at the end of the phase without replacing them with a new, revealed and active plot until later in the plot phase. This is made more confusing by the fact that it never actually says anywhere in the rules that plots are only active in the "revealed" state. Everyone plays that way, but it isn't specified. It is just as valid to say that the last plot to be revealed is the active one, regardless of the state it is actually in (since no plot state is considered "in play"). That's the point of clarification FFG has never provided and why we keep trying to get them to repeal the whole "move the revealed plot to the used pile at the end of the round" wording in the FAQ.

Anyway, by adding the text "until you reveal a new plot" to Fear of Winter, you are being told that this plot works until a new plot is revealed, regardless of the state of Fear of Winter. So since most of the time players only reveal plots in the plot phase, the pre-plot window of the next round ends up being included in the Fear of Winter limit because of the text. It's like a card saying you can lower the cost to play it from your hand; it says it works while out-of-play, so it does. Fear of Winter says it works, even if it is not in the "revealed" state, until another plot is revealed, so it does. The text pretty much tells us that it is revealing the next plot, not moving the current one to the used pile, that inactivates Fear of Winter. Short of blanking Fear of Winter (so that the text "doesn't exist" as far as the game is concerned) somehow or revealing a new plot, it continues to be active.

[Rogue30 60]

Ok, so you are saying that it is a constant effect but with special ability which allows it to work while the plot is not currently revealed? I can agree with that but it smells like lasting effect

As for moving plots to the used pile at the end of the phase, I think it's clear - if plot is in used pile then it's not active - doesn't matter if I can see it.

 

BTW Question:

Unconventional Warfare - Any Phase: Pay 1 gold to give Unconventional Warfare the Military Battle, Power Struggle or Intrigue Gambit trait until the end of the phase.

If I use Bran after I gave this plot a trait, has it still that trait while being in used pile?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

Ok, so you are saying that it is a constant effect but with special ability which allows it to work while the plot is not currently revealed? I can agree with that but it smells like lasting effect

No, I am saying it is a constant effect that specifically works until you reveal a new plot card, which deactivates the card text. You should note that there is a good argument to be made that all constant effect plots work the same way - with their effect being valid when they are in the used pile and there is no plot in the revealed state - but that Fear of Winter has text that makes sure that interaction is clear.

It is not a lasting effect because a lasting effect would continue to work after the card text is deactivated. Lasting effects are defined in the rules as "Effects that last for longer than a single action." So there has to be an action that creates them. That means lasting effects have a beginning and an end that are defined by resolving card text. Something has to resolve in order for there to be a lasting effect. With constant effect plots, no card text is resolving.

Look at it this way: If you cannot cancel its creation, it's not a lasting effect.

Rogue30 said:

As for moving plots to the used pile at the end of the phase, I think it's clear - if plot is in used pile then it's not active - doesn't matter if I can see it.

Why? Where does it say that in the rules? What's your back-up for that position?

Also remember that I'm not saying it is because you can see it. It is because nothing has moved into the "revealed" state to take its place. Huge difference.

 

Rogue30 said:

BTW Question:

Unconventional Warfare - Any Phase: Pay 1 gold to give Unconventional Warfare the Military Battle, Power Struggle or Intrigue Gambit trait until the end of the phase.

If I use Bran after I gave this plot a trait, has it still that trait while being in used pile?

Seriously?

Go back to the criteria. Is there a starting point created by resolving card text? Yes? Is there a specific ending point defined in said resolving card text? Yes? Then it is a lasting effect and does not depend on the continued "in play" or "active" status of the original card text, once that card text has initiated and resolved. The plot keeps its trait until the end of the phase, even in the used pile. (This goes back to the point that no plot state is considered "in play," so the normal "when a card leaves play, all lasting effects on that card are considered terminated" doesn't apply; a plot does not "leave play" when it moves from revealed to used pile.)

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

I'm not saying it is because you can see it. It is because nothing has moved into the "revealed" state to take its place. Huge difference.

That was what I meant. What's the difference BTW? If you see it, there is no current plot, if you can't see it, then it's new plot on the top.

ktom said:

 

Why? Where does it say that in the rules? What's your back-up for that position?

Where does it say in the rules, that plot in used pile is not active while there is a plot in currently revealed state?

Where does it say in the rules, that plot in plot deck is not active?

I always thought it's obvious.

"At the beginning of each round each player selects a single plot card from his or her plot deck to use for the round."

"After a plot is used, it is considered to be in the plot card "used pile." "

"During the game a plot card exists in one of three possible states: in your plot deck, in your used pile, or revealed."

 

After The Power of Blood goes to used pile at the end of the round, Nobles are not safe anymore, right?

[ktom 598]

Rogue30 said:

That was what I meant. What's the difference BTW? If you see it, there is no current plot, if you can't see it, then it's new plot on the top.

You're missing something here. At the end of the round, the currently revealed plot is considered to have been moved to the "used" pile. But you have not revealed a new plot and put it on top yet. There is therefore a period of time during which you have no revealed plot. You can technically "see" the last plot you revealed, even though it is technically used, because you have no plot in the "revealed" state.

So, is it the transfer of the a plot from "revealed" to "used" that deactivates it, or is it the revealing of a new plot that deactivates the last plot revealed?

Rogue30 said:

After The Power of Blood goes to used pile at the end of the round, Nobles are not safe anymore, right?

Not necessarily. If it is the revealing of a new plot that deactivates the last plot revealed, then Power of Blood may still be applicable, regardless of its status as "revealed" or "used" in the pre-plot action window. It's ambiguous because FFG has never come out and said, one way or another, which way it should be.

Fear of Winter, though, with the "until you reveal a new plot" is not ambiguous because the text of the card gives the "ruling" for that card that FFG has never made in general.