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Jackal_Strain

I may have solved the female problem.

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Steve-O said:

 

Steve-O said.

I remember reading a bit of fluff concerning the Blood Angels geneseed (I forget which book it was in) and it was basically explaining how the geneseed transformation turned ALL Blood Angels in blond, blue eyes Aryan warriors.  According to this snippet, if a black man was given the Blood Angels geneseed, and assuming it took hold, his skin would gradually whiten as the transformation process went on.  It was a little bit revolting to me, to be honest.  I mean, I love the dark, neo-gothic setting of the 40k universe and I love the Blood Angels as a chapter (more for their colour scheme than their cheese-fest rules), but something about that idea struck a dischordant tone for me.

I am old enough to remember how WH40K first appeared in roleplaying stores. It had stickers on them restricting the sale to persons older than 16. I remember having loaned on of the first books out from a friend - and having a discussion about it with my dad. Yes, my dad. This is a conversation that took place some 20 plus years ago.

My dad wasn't concerned about the violence, he was concerned about the implicit racism and some of the, ahem, questionable one-liners.

I remember, after taking majors in history in my grammar school, getting all red and flustered about trying (in vain) to explain why a book with lines like

" to be unclean, that is the mark of the mutant"

was any good and a healthy thing for me as a teenager to interact with.

Now, as I said, I don't mind the things "bad" or questionable about WH40K. In fact, I think it is a guilty pleasure. Some of it could be explained away as criticism, like a "anti-war" war movie. Some, but not all of it. So I cheekily love the nonsense that gets thrown at me. All hail the Emperor ! Dying for the Emperor is my greatest wish ! Let me consider the merits of wasting entire planets because of a perceived threat by chaos !

In the end, all the chauvinism does get tricky is when it changes how you interact with your friends. "Because females can not be Space Marines" - Then it has had that bad influence on you that you (and I in particular) have been warned about.

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Another way to look at this is to simply remember that we are "roleplaying"; playing a role.  To me if you decide there are no female marines then that's no different than saying that there are no ork marines, or tau marines.  Sure the setting's concept excludes females from being members of the Deathwatch but that doesn't exclude females from roleplaying members of the Deathwatch.

 

On a slightly ironic side note; I think it's funny that there are a couple of threads here that are arguing back-and-forth about  a precieved "lack" of roleplaying opportunities in Deathwatch.  Right here we're discussing a great opportunity for someone to roleplay given to use by the very nature of the setting.  Interesting...

 

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There is nothing wrong with allowing female space marines in your games, but I have decided, and my players agree that we stick to the official lore. I'm all for discussing the possibilty of female space marines, but can we please keep this thread free from that discussion? There is another thread that has a lot of arguments for and against female space marines allready.

Thanks for all of the suggestions and comments about balancing a sister against the marines. I agree that one doesn't have to go to the lenght of creating an ascenscion character in order to make her shine next to the astartes, and I hope the Deathwatch book will shine some light on this subject. On the other hand, balance in itself isn't really that important imo. It's way more important to let every player around the table feel like they are contributing to the story and have their area where they shine.

Hesporos: Go ahead and steal anything you want. It's not like I can stop  you anyway gui%C3%B1o.gif I was actually thinking about using a fallen angel myself, but the main antagonist from my former dark heresy game was one, and I didn't want to repeat myself.

theDevilofWormwood: thanks for these great suggestions. I think I'm gonna stick with my reasoning behind why she's working with the deathwatch, but those are all great reasons for including a sororita with the astartes. Thanks for the tip about letting the sororita use the demeanors rule as well. I think i'm gonna use this.

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Yeah, sorry about that Jackel.  So back on topic, The trick really is makeing sure a non-astartes player doesn't feel like a 5th wheel or somehow barging in on a game they don't belong in.  I like your background, and it's one of the better ones I've seen as an excuse to bring a non-astartes ally into the Deathwatch. 

I would be suprised if they don't include a small box about using other systems with Deathwatch, the same way they did for Rogue Trader.  It will also probibly include a Rank and XP level for assosiates.  I wouldn't expect it to work perfectly, Dark Heresy to Rogue Trader sure doesn't, but it should at least get you close enough to fine tune it.

That being said, there's been some indecation that the power level of the game is suposed to be close to that of Rogue Trader.  That being said, you might find it easer (if you have the relivent book) to go in to Death Watch with an Arch-Millitant, rather then a DH Sister specificly.

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A Dialogous Sister specializing in Xenos language/knowledge would be in an interesting and useful addition to a Kill Team, acting as a translator when things get less shooty and more talky, or to read ancient texts in alien ruins. Perhaps using their knowledge of alien species' to give the Kill Team bonuses by telling them where best to shoot/hit...?

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There won't be any female marines in my game, i'm too much of a hardcore lore fanatic for that, and my one female player is totaly ok with that. She's upset that her favorite chapter, Iron hands, aren't in the game, though she didn't expect it. No, its the groups resident shim (men who play women/women who play men) thats all pissed off. Course, we're kinda sick of him anyway, so he may get the boot.

 

If i had to have a female character in the group, I'd probably just grab the Arch Militant from RT as some suggested and add some flavor/talents to make a easier to work with Sister of Battle. But i don't have to, so i won't, lengua.gif

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 If i had to have a female character in the group, I'd probably just grab the Arch Militant from RT as some suggested and add some flavor/talents to make a easier to work with Sister of Battle. But i don't have to, so i won't,

I'd go Sister of Battle -> Hierophant.

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Cifer said:

 If i had to have a female character in the group, I'd probably just grab the Arch Militant from RT as some suggested and add some flavor/talents to make a easier to work with Sister of Battle. But i don't have to, so i won't,

I'd go Sister of Battle -> Hierophant.

 

Thats a lot of work, and they loose out on at least 2 sets of attribute advancements that way. And i still don't like any of the Ascension classes for SoB, they just don't feal right to me, not based on any of the fluff from the previous SoB codexs or novellas.

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Yeah, my sugestion for using Arch-Militent really came from the anticipation that it will reqire much less autoleveling or adjustment in order to mesh with Deathwatch power levels.  If you take Zealot off the Origin chart, and/or allow them to buy off the missionary advancement list, you've essetialy created a free-form SoB.

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I'll do that, once I've figured it out myself! ;)

I thouroughly belive that a sister of battle character can bring something unique to the table, so I'll try keep a short campaign diary of some sort. If anyone is interrested that is.

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I don't get the problem here. I thought the whole point of these tabletop RPGs was that we can literally do whatever we want using our imaginations. Core Rulebooks just set the precedent and establish the game mechanics, but this isn't like some xbox game where the only way to change something is to spend three months pouring over hundreds of pages of code and altering the polygon count on character models.

If you want a female Adeptus Astartes, then just make something up, like maybe there was a secret project the Imperium has been running where they've prefected a way to exanpnd the parameters for creating space marines from more varied genetic stock, allowing women to undergo the gene-seed operations and whatnot. She can be exactly like any other space marine, only female.

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Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to drag things off topic again.

Drag them off topic, down an alley, and start beating them about the head with a bat.

I just had to register because of the absolute insanity I've seen in this thread. Chauvanism? Really!? Of all the utter nonsense I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot of accusations thrown in the direction of 40K, some of them even having some merit like the racism ones, that has to take the cake. What the hell are some of you people smoking? And where can I get some?

I've played 40K for 11 years, and fell in love with the game so much that I've digested the fluff new and old, and chauvanism is realy the last thing I've ever seen in them. How about I start complaining about how Sisters of Battle can only be female, that's no less misandrist, or retarded, than the accusations about Space Marines being restricted to males is mysoginist?

I'll shut up and go away if people could give me some actual concrete evidence besides "they can only be men", that 40K is chauvanist. But frankly, I don't think I'm going to get it, because it's just not there.

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Blood Pact said:

Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to drag things off topic again.

Drag them off topic, down an alley, and start beating them about the head with a bat.

I just had to register because of the absolute insanity I've seen in this thread. Chauvanism? Really!? Of all the utter nonsense I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot of accusations thrown in the direction of 40K, some of them even having some merit like the racism ones, that has to take the cake. What the hell are some of you people smoking? And where can I get some?

I've played 40K for 11 years, and fell in love with the game so much that I've digested the fluff new and old, and chauvanism is realy the last thing I've ever seen in them. How about I start complaining about how Sisters of Battle can only be female, that's no less misandrist, or retarded, than the accusations about Space Marines being restricted to males is mysoginist?

I'll shut up and go away if people could give me some actual concrete evidence besides "they can only be men", that 40K is chauvanist. But frankly, I don't think I'm going to get it, because it's just not there.

Obviously, some people see it as chauvinism that the most elite order of warriors in the Empire of Man, if not in the whole **** galaxy, is male only. Sororitas are cool, for many reasons, but they don't really compare favorably to Space Marines in terms of combat prowess, never mind the hype. That, technically, can be seen as chauvinism.

Not that I disagree with you. As far as I'm concerned, Space Marines aren't really men or women, they are living machines of war that exist beyond such trivial concerns. They are also very specifically described physically in a way that's not necessarily attractive (in a non-sexual sense) to all male players either. I, for one, find little aesthetic pleasure in playing someone who looks like a strongman/bodybuilder with gigantism. And yet I'm not going to complain or demand that my Marine is a slender, wiry Bishounen, because that's not what Marines are about, and I'm willing to try the new roleplaying experience.

In other words, if the game under discussion was "Macho Men And Their Manly Sexual Conquests", I could see it being chauvinistic and not very entertaining for female players. But since it's more like "Super Mutant Warriors Blowing Stuff Up (And Arguing About Honor Vigorously)", I fail to see how their sex is of any importance to the enjoyment.

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"Some people" need to make up bull where it doesn't exist, so they have something to pitch a fit about. I saw it quite often while working in the service industry, there were people who needed to complain about even the tiniest, most insignificant problems, working themselves up, and making the most minor of inconveniences in to a big deal, so they could go off ranting and screaming about them.

I started calling those people "Drama Queens" when in the company of my coworkers.

So, the most elite military force in the entire galaxy being restricted just to males, with some really good fluff backing up the reasons for that, which was written at a time when there weren't many women in any military, let alone allowed in to combat roles, really doesn't strike me as chauvanist. Perhaps they could have retconned things so that there could be female Space Marines, but they could also retcon things so that there's 'Brothers of Battle' alongside the Sisters, which would make just as much sense. How about we write out the tendency for Orks to have cockney accents while we're at it?

And for the record, I'm fine with people making up a reason for there to be female Space Marines, in fact there is a very old (but obscure) fan theory that one of the two Primarchs of the two 'mystery legions' was a woman, which would mean that her Space Marines would be female too. But throwing around accusations of mysoginy is just plain nonsense.

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As the rest already mentioned: a graceful and decent solution.

One thing though, about the demeanours, solo- and squad abilities. Why not just adapt or pick some for the Sororitas? True, fluff-wise they haven't been explored as deeply as marines but the Sororitas have different orders, those different orders having different outlooks on the galaxy, different traditions, different training regimens etc etc.

 

I'd say, don't let her miss out on the new fun bits of Deatwatch, just include them for her Sororitas character as well. The battlesisters are an elite troop force as well so why wouldn't they have competent squad tactics(-abilities) and very high personal skills expectations and training (solo abilities), same goes for demeanours. Once the book is out, just go through all the abilities and choose the ones most appropriate for her character and battlesisters in general. It's your game after all. ^^

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Well, as has been previously mentioned, the line is being designed with compatability in mind. So that you can take starting characters from Deathwatch,  Rogue Trader, and Ascension Dark Heresy characters, and run them all in the same game with little to no problem.

As for a reason why, well you don't necessarily need a female Inquisitor. Remember that many of an Inquisitor's most trusted acolytes can eventually rise to become very independent operators, called Throne Agents in the aformentioned Ascension book. So a Sister of Battle, Arbite, or what-have-you could be one of those people, seconded to the Deathwatch team for whatever inscrutable purpose that the Inquisitor has. Or leading said team, of course.

The Battle Sisters also have the claim to fame of never having fallen to the lure of Chaos in their existence, something Space Marines can't, with the exception of a few specific Chapters, notably the Grey Knights. Though, as a side note, Space Marine selection is a lot more rigorous than it was before the Horus Heresy.

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Blood Pact said:

The Battle Sisters also have the claim to fame of never having fallen to the lure of Chaos in their existence, something Space Marines can't, with the exception of a few specific Chapters, notably the Grey Knights. 

 

As much as I hate to call foul, I cite my source of the Daemonifuge graphic novels, notably the first one, where there are corrupt Battle Sisters. Good read though, lots of Inquisitorial nonsense and Battle Sisters stomping around and general awesome 40k action.

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Never read it, I stick with the Horus Heresy and.. well, pretty much anything by Dan Abnett. lol

Anyway, even with Demifuge, they can still make that claim. Personally I've always taken it with a bit of salt myself, when reading the fluff. They've been around a long time and Chaos is pretty **** insidious.

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id_doomer said:

 

Blood Pact said:

 

The Battle Sisters also have the claim to fame of never having fallen to the lure of Chaos in their existence, something Space Marines can't, with the exception of a few specific Chapters, notably the Grey Knights. 

 

 

 

As much as I hate to call foul, I cite my source of the Daemonifuge graphic novels, notably the first one, where there are corrupt Battle Sisters. Good read though, lots of Inquisitorial nonsense and Battle Sisters stomping around and general awesome 40k action.

 

 

While I certainly can't deny your source as it is a Black Library publication, I feel the need to call shenanigans on the part of GW and BL in this case.  They all too often identify the Sisters as one of the most devout of all the Emperor's servants, even while they remain indelibly human.  And I'm sure it is simply wishful thinking on my part, but all the lore they put out there beyond Daemonifuge, seems to point to the fact that even though they mack mistakes and sometimes act against the accepted path, the Sisters of Battle are incorruptible. It's one of the things that make them intriguing.

 

just a bit of a rant. Not actually to be directed at id_doomer....

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SinisterCheshire said:

While I certainly can't deny your source as it is a Black Library publication, I feel the need to call shenanigans on the part of GW and BL in this case.  They all too often identify the Sisters as one of the most devout of all the Emperor's servants, even while they remain indelibly human.  And I'm sure it is simply wishful thinking on my part, but all the lore they put out there beyond Daemonifuge, seems to point to the fact that even though they mack mistakes and sometimes act against the accepted path, the Sisters of Battle are incorruptible. It's one of the things that make them intriguing.

 

just a bit of a rant. Not actually to be directed at id_doomer....

 

Aye, it's probably one of those things, dramatic licence taken for the purposes of a story; or the sisters are statistically incorruptible. I know the Grey Knights have been stated as never having had one of their number fall to Chaos; I've never heard the same for the Sisters yet, but I also haven't read everything yet. They are, to their credit, unwaveringly strong of faith and conviction in their service to the Emperor. But they are only mortal humans, and we've all seen the ever corrupting influence of Chaos. An Imperial Governer, well, he'd have strong diplomatic relations with the other heads of the Ordos and Adeptus' on his planet, including the regional Cannonness of the Adeptus Soritis. If he's corrupted, well, he'd have access to corrupt  her, and once she's fallen, it's only a matter of time before she passes on her new religion to her staff, her students, her sisters. Of course it's equally likely she'll just burn him there and then and bring down the wrath of the Ordo Hereticus on his entire organisation; but Chaos is subtle, and one or two in every hundred are sure to slip through the cracks...

[Not an argumentative response to SinisterCheshire, just a concept of a potential starting point for a campaign...]

 

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