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Surak

Ascension and Elite Ranks

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Hi all,

one of the DH groups that I gm is getting very close to ascending, but several of the group have taken alternate ranks that mean the ascended careers either don't fit (Arbite-Mortiuge to Judge) or are incredably dangerous (Moritat to Death Cult).

I was wondering if anyone had any experience of dealing with the little oddities that crop up with alternate ranks and ascension.

Thanks,

 

Surak

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The Mortiurge could go Death Cult, Stormtrooper, or, if you allow them, Vindicare. I could even, under the right circumstances, see Desperado as an option. I really don't see too much of a problem with the Mortiurge going Judge. He's just going to be the one to send in the Arbities kill-teams first and look for evidence after the blood dries.

As for Moritat to Death Cult, isn't that the point of the Moritat in the first place?

Being flexible in your interpretations of what a career is will be the best option for dealing with oddities.
 

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Another thing to bear in mind, the Alternate Career Ranks do not change your character's core Career.  So the Mortiurge, an alternate rank for an Arbitrator would still have the same choices available to them for Transition Packages and Ascended Careers

I agree that the choices presented in Ascension are in no way the only options a character has to choose from.  I also agree that characters with alternate career ranks might be provided with one or two additional options upon ascending.  GM's are the final ruling on the matter.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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While none of my games have last this long (yet), my PC's tend to purge each other about half way there, its something i've thought about and i've basicaly come to the conclusion that as long as the idea they pitch me for an Ascension Path/Carreer they want that makes sense, i'll let them take it, reguardless of the requirements. What i really wish they had done was made one more clearly aimed at the Sisters of Battle. Looks like my next game might have one, and there is no clear path for her to ascend into.

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talsine said:

While none of my games have last this long (yet), my PC's tend to purge each other about half way there, its something i've thought about and i've basicaly come to the conclusion that as long as the idea they pitch me for an Ascension Path/Carreer they want that makes sense, i'll let them take it, reguardless of the requirements. What i really wish they had done was made one more clearly aimed at the Sisters of Battle. Looks like my next game might have one, and there is no clear path for her to ascend into.

Sisters actually have a few that work pretty well already.   Crusader and Heirophant are the obvious choices.  Inquisitor or Interrogator are likewise possible.  You could even make arguments in favour of Stormtrooper, although their special abilities are somewhat less appealing for a combat-oriented Sister since she should preffer bolters, flamers and meltas with power armour to the more typical hellgun and carapace.   There is also the "Gun Saint" ascended career that I am putting the finishing touches on.  I intend on posting a copy of my new career in the near future (once I finalize a few stray points costs and put some polish on it).  It will be soon since Kylen's character is ascending into it...

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I'm still playing with this assassin to tech-priest elite advance/alternate rank combo (maltek stalker or what was it called?) and then going magos...

is this possible?

basically maltek stalker let's you count as a Tech-Priest everywhere where "Tech-Priest" is the prerequisite and ascencion says your career needs to be "Tech-Priest"... (being wyrd at the same time and do a assassin/tech-priest psyker going psyker primaris does not work as you do count as a psyker but it needs the career imperial psyker which you aren't, so going untouchable is porbably more worth then wyrd in this case ;) )

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Sirion said:

I'm still playing with this assassin to tech-priest elite advance/alternate rank combo (maltek stalker or what was it called?) and then going magos...

is this possible?

I would say no. A Maletek Stalker is a Here-tek Assasin, not a Tech Priest. They just have access to TP upgrades.

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Sirion said:

I'm still playing with this assassin to tech-priest elite advance/alternate rank combo (maltek stalker or what was it called?) and then going magos...

is this possible?

basically maltek stalker let's you count as a Tech-Priest everywhere where "Tech-Priest" is the prerequisite and ascencion says your career needs to be "Tech-Priest"... (being wyrd at the same time and do a assassin/tech-priest psyker going psyker primaris does not work as you do count as a psyker but it needs the career imperial psyker which you aren't, so going untouchable is porbably more worth then wyrd in this case ;) )

 

Magos is the only role i would close out to anyone that is not a Tech priest, no one else has the required implants, and its not like you can just making a trip down to your local Forgeworld and have them mod you up with what ammounts to the seremonial garb of their priesthood

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welll thats exactly the point... except for a slight (or rather large) difference concerning the potentia coil he get's the equivalents for all TP implants! (they are more fleshy and less machine but they are equivalent in game terms) the one thing he definitely can't egt without an elite adv. is the rite of pure thought and therefore the second transition package for magos...

 

and well the careers are just guidelines as I thought so of course he wouldn't be a magos as per title but it is about the game effects of the career would you allow the career or a similiar one with a different name /background story? as I read you, you wouldn't

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I wouldn't, no. Some of the classes are very very distinct, Magos is one, Vindicare and Prymaris Psycher are others, though both of those give at least one extra way to get there (Sniper Guard path, teh opened eye Elite path thing from IH, i don't have my books with me).

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Maltek Stalker says, quite specifically, "for the purpose of those implants, and any further advances, the Stalker is assumed to meet any prerequisite which specifies "Tech-Priest"."

The implants they have specifically require a Tech-Priest, and their advances in their career path specifically require Tech-Priest. I personally view it as the RAW is specifically referring to their advance scheme. One could extend it that it could include elite advances if specifically worked on by a heretek that could confer more of the Tech-Priest benefits, but its unlikely. For ascending, thats not choosing an advance or elite advance, so your completely out of the RAW.

If your speaking of archtypes, Magos is a rather specific and iconic thing of Warhammer 40,000, and personally to me it seems like its still rather stretching the archtypes generosity too far. Similarily I would not allowed a techpriest-psyker. Tech-Priests are specifically discluded from becoming wyrds and nascent psykers. Trying to go Maltek Stalker-Magos-Untouchable/Psyker just seems like straight power gaming to me. Mayhaps you have some purely amazing roleplay ability, but getting the advantages of a stalker path (great damage and combat prowess) plus magos (great soak and combat prowess) and than untouchable (immune to warp magiks and able to **** with daemons) or psyker (bloody powerful in first place) just .. Yeah, thats cherry picking some of the most potent stuff you can take.

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We're trying to convince our Templar to go the Crusader route.  He's played up the fact that he bodyguards the Prime up until this point but he's been eyeballing the Primaris class.  We already have another sanctioned psyker (who has been primarily an invstigator/medic) who plans to go Primaris.

If we end up with two Primaris, I can pretty much be sure I'll be delivering the Emperor's judgement to at least one of them since they're both risk-takers.

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Justicar said:

We're trying to convince our Templar to go the Crusader route.  He's played up the fact that he bodyguards the Prime up until this point but he's been eyeballing the Primaris class.  We already have another sanctioned psyker (who has been primarily an invstigator/medic) who plans to go Primaris.

If we end up with two Primaris, I can pretty much be sure I'll be delivering the Emperor's judgement to at least one of them since they're both risk-takers.

 

Well, if the Templar has been acting the part of bodyguard, then Crusader would be a great and logical choice to go with.  A gentle reminder to the player that once ascended he will still be able to increase his Psy Rating, since the advances from the Scholar Empyrean would open up to him, allowing him to pick up the Psy Rating 6 talent with your permission.

You may also consider offering him the opportunity to acquire the elite advances of the Interrogator and Inquisitor career trait of The Psyker's Gift at the following costs;

  1. Minor Psychic Power - 250 xp
  2. Major Psychic Power - 500 xp
  3. Ascended Psychic Power - 1,500 xp
  4. Psy Rating + 1 - 1,000 xp

Remembering that an elite advance is only ever supposed to be available once.  But, I think a Templar to Crusader; especially picking either the Scourge of Heretics or Slayer of Dæmons trait, would be an interesting evolution of just such a character.  And even in an ascended game, a Psy Rating of 5-7 is not something to generally laugh at.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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After finally getting a copy of Ascension, I'm strongly considering going Primaris.

"You can't know the power of the Dark side!"

<ahem> Excuse me there, don't know what got into me.

"Oh my stars and garters!"

Really, I'll calm down, really.

"Improvise, adapt, overcome".

Ok, to the point. I'm considering Primaris with the possible following changes:

First off, I'll use the Sacrificing Characteristics rule on p. 12 of Ascension, since our GM insists that I must maintain 10 or lower IP & CP at all times to further gain training in Templar, and a recent incident left me with 11 IP (Nevermind the fact that no other class makes such a requirement. Or nevermind that when he brought a Psyker into my game at low rank, the character had a Damaskin Kineblade, just because he thought it was cool, and abilities out of the Radical's Handbook. I was wrong for having missed it when I looked at his character sheet, and wrong to get mad at double standards. But I digress).

I'll sacrifice 6 points of BS for removing 2d10 IP & 1d10 CP (she'll take the 999 words of Saint Drusus tattooed into her skin. This is appropriate, since it's her patron saint after all. But all those needles are going to cause nerve ending damage, making it harder for her to hold a gun steady). I'll further use the Crusader transition package (p. 30), to further reduce IP/CP if necessary. If I get extremely lucky die rolls, then I may use Hero of the Inquisition (p. 47) instead.

Will go Primaris, using Psychic soldier as her Ascended trait. Further recommending the following changes to the class, and calling it a Psychic Warrior.

Rank 9, remove Ascended Psychic Power (1000 exp), and replace with Sound Constitution x2 (500 exp each).

Rank 10, remove Psy Rating +1 (800 exp), and replace with Guardian (500 exp).

Rank 13, remove Ascended Psychic Power (1500 exp), and replace with Favoured by Fate (1000 exp).

Rank 14, remove Psy Rating +1 (800 exp), and replace with Weapon Master (per RT, Arch-Militant, 1500 exp).

Rank 14, remove Unnatural Willpower x2 and replace with Unnatural Toughness x2 (same exp cost).

Rank 16, remove Unnatural Willpower x3 and replace with Unnatural Willpower x2 (same exp cost).

As this version is a militant version of the Primaris Psyker, the same change of cost for improving WS vs. Intel that was used for Templar, is continued here. So WS will cost 1000 for Heroic, and 1500 for Master, and Intel 3000 & 3500 respectively.

"Now, I am the Master..."

Mind you, this version has not yet been seen by my GM, so he'll see it here fo the first time.

This cuts back the Psyker on several abilities, notably 2 levels of Psy ratings and Ascended powers, while giving appropriate cookies for doing so.

 

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I'm thinking that the unnatural toughness is malplaced for a primaris of any sort. The only two careers in the game that gets unnatural toughness is vindicaire and magos. Your primaris suggestion even get's unnatural toughness one rank ahead of magos.

For a primaris psyker, no matter how combat focused, to become tougher than any rank crusader, stormtrooper, judge or death cult assasin and gain unnatural toughness faster than magos seems very wrong. Especially considering that the inability to absorb damage is about the only weakness the primaris has.

 I'd suggest removing it in favour of something else combat related or at least switching it with the unnatural willpower so the toughness comes at last rank. Alternatly, speak to the GM about using the transition package The minds eye opens from inquisitor for another more combat focused career. 

 

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Graspar said:

I'm thinking that the unnatural toughness is malplaced for a primaris of any sort. The only two careers in the game that gets unnatural toughness is vindicaire and magos. Your primaris suggestion even get's unnatural toughness one rank ahead of magos.

For a primaris psyker, no matter how combat focused, to become tougher than any rank crusader, stormtrooper, judge or death cult assasin and gain unnatural toughness faster than magos seems very wrong. Especially considering that the inability to absorb damage is about the only weakness the primaris has.

 I'd suggest removing it in favour of something else combat related or at least switching it with the unnatural willpower so the toughness comes at last rank. Alternatly, speak to the GM about using the transition package The minds eye opens from inquisitor for another more combat focused career. 

 

The whole point was trying to create more of a hybrid class, more similar to the popular Paladin from other games, than to run a character that was heavily favoured in either Toughness or WP.

You mentioned that I should replace the Unnatural WP to Toughness later, which is certainly doable. So the first Unnatural WP x 2 could come first, and just switch the Unnatural WP x 3 with Toughness x2.

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The whole point was trying to create more of a hybrid class, more similar to the popular Paladin from other games, than to run a character that was heavily favoured in either Toughness or WP.

Yes, but in doing so you've created a hybrid which withstands damage better than other more specialised combat classes.

You mentioned that I should replace the Unnatural WP to Toughness later, which is certainly doable. So the first Unnatural WP x 2 could come first, and just switch the Unnatural WP x 3 with Toughness x2.
 

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

And if your GM disapproves, ask him to take the psykers gift for another more combat focused career. That way you can still have a combat character and still gain psy ratings and powers.

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Graspar said:

 

The whole point was trying to create more of a hybrid class, more similar to the popular Paladin from other games, than to run a character that was heavily favoured in either Toughness or WP.

Yes, but in doing so you've created a hybrid which withstands damage better than other more specialised combat classes.

You mentioned that I should replace the Unnatural WP to Toughness later, which is certainly doable. So the first Unnatural WP x 2 could come first, and just switch the Unnatural WP x 3 with Toughness x2.
 

Yes, that's what I meant.

 

And if your GM disapproves, ask him to take the psykers gift for another more combat focused career. That way you can still have a combat character and still gain psy ratings and powers.

 

 

I have looked at taking Crusader, with Psykers Gift. I have a couple of problems with doing so.

First, Psykers Gift would give those bennies as Elite advances, i.e. they would be a ONE-TIME only advance each during Ascension, which would seriously hamper any Psyker.

Second, useful Primaris Psyker bennies would therefore be superceded by the Psyker's Gift, and I like the huge advantage that being able to throw up a Psychic defense of some sort and still fighting right away, such as you get with Psychic Warrior.

Finally, Primaris Psyker (and ONLY Primaris Psyker) gain the abilities for fettered, unfettered and push on their powers, similar to RT, so anything outside of Primaris for me is totally unacceptable. I've run into too many times where the GM forces weakened veils on us every other story line, and I am sick of it.

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It sounds like you want a character that is good at everything and has no weaknesses (actually starts to sound a bit like munchkinism). Where is the fun in that? If you want to displace one of the weaknesses of a class you have to give up some of its benefits as well.

 

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I seem to remember one of Sam's replies in the FAQ about the Ascention career "elite advances" being available for purchase multiple times.  This might remove alot of people's potential obsticales.

Since I and Filidan are the GMs in question in regards to Denmar's post I figure a few details might help out here:

Because the character in question IS a Templar Calix and has expressed an interest in Crusader (not to mention gravitating to the bodyguard role a few times in game) I have offered the option of replacing the usual Crusader's "Slayer of X" class ability with the "Hey cool, I'm a psyker!" class ability from the Interrogator to avoid psychic stagnation.

The requirement to maintain IP and CP under 10 regarding Templar Calix is only in regards to initial training (already complete) and any returns to the Temple for "special training".  Since I don't have access to unpublished materials the idea was to have a pre-existing rule in place in case some fancy new "special training" option cropped up in a later book (Like a Black Priest of Macabeus and the "secret special thing they sometimes do to their heads").

Should Primaris be opted for the Templar stat flip would apply to their 5th and 6th advances as well, so WS would be cheap and Int would not...

The thing I am very reluctant to do is re-write an already devastating ascention career into a hybrid.  The Primaris Psyker is literally a walking manifestation of barely contained will trapped in a limiting meaty shell.  It the the "Tetsuo" level of psychic WTF where you can go mind-to-mind against a daemon and (maybe) win the contest!  It is a little conceptually hard to justify a "POWER OVERWHELMING!!....  well, sorta..." career package in the 41st millenium.

I am probably at least partially to blame for planting the idea-seed for a re-write, since I have in fact created a NEW ascended career for my game.  The difference here is that it was to plug a gaping hole in the existing careers and one of my player's character literally did not fit ANY of the Ascended careers as published.  It is also a complete and distinctively different career, complete with it's own special ability packages to choose from.  The other notable thing here is that because it is a completely fresh career package I literally spent about 2 months working over the details to make it balanced and fair compared to the existing options.

But the main balance factor here has already been mentioned by previous posts.  The Warp is inherently dangerous.  Those of supremely strong will and training may be able to mitigate the worst of it, but there is always some risk involved.  This is the very real price of power.   Both the Crusader and the Primaris Psyker ascended careers would be a good fit for the character in question, and I don't particularly care which one is ultimately selected, so long as the choice is enjoyable, first and foremost by the player, and hopefully the other players as well.   What I am not ready to sign off on is a Primaris-Crusader.   I likewise have no intention of making a Stormtrooper-Inquisitor for Kira, an Interrogator-Sage for Anna, a Magos-Sage for Psi, Stromtrooper-Crusader for John and so on.   So a super-tough psyker that doesn't roll Perils is rather on the broken side of things.  If the Eldar have not figured out that trick then the far more wasteful Mon-kiegh are definately a ways off still.  Let's just say there is a reason that Farseers wear a Ghost Helm...

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Brother Praetus said:

Another thing to bear in mind, the Alternate Career Ranks do not change your character's core Career. 

That's how my group runs it.  I am playing in an Ascension career where an Adept turned Malefic Scholar.  He ended up advancing as a Sage....even if I wanted to I couldn't advance to Primaris Psyker (Or some evil sorcerors equivalent). 

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