How much do Heavy Weapons change things?

[H.B.M.C. 191]

Hello there,

I'm about to begin writing the meat of our campaign's 4th Act, and this is the first time one of the characters (our Arbite) will get to use the Heavy Stubber he's had since the very start of the campaign (he took it off the dead body of a fellow Arbite). He hasn't used it so far due to being inside:

1. A mine (not so good for Heavy Weapons).
2. A small Hive City settlement (was visiting a local town - not going into a war).
3. A Forge World (was indoors).
4. A star ship (you don't use HW's inside star ships).
5. Another star ship.
6. A space station (ditto for space stations).

The next part of the 4th Act takes place mostly outside, with a lot of the missions being fights within open city streets, in and around churches/cathedrals, out in wilderness/forest areas, attacking fortresses, raiding convoys, and so on, so it seems like a good place to finally put that big Heavy Stubber to use? Nice areas of open ground ready for Bertha (as the Stubber is called - the Arbite names all his weapons).

But I haven't used any heavy weapons yet. So far they've faced exactly 3 Heavy Bolters - two on Servitors, one on a Praetorian-Class Battle Servitors. In all cases they never got to shoot either because the group carefully blinded them before moving into Close-Combat, or because the Priest and Tech-Priest in the group madly charged the Praetorian before it could begin shooting - so I don't know yet what sort of paradigm shift this is going to be.


Do people find PC heavy weapons make encounters ludicrously easy, or just add another fun element without being over-powered? I want to get them into some meaner fire-fights, including a few involving vehicles and fixed turret positions, but given how much time I've spent learning the basics of encounter balance, I'm afraid that this new 'heavier' element is going to throw that out of whack.


Who's used HW's before? What impact do they have?

BYE

[ItsUncertainWho 3]

If you players are smart about deploying a heavy weapon they will make your life difficult and theirs much easier.

Expect suppression followed by aimed shots by the rest of the group to pick off individual enemies. This is very effective in controlling a large group of enemies in my experience as the man with the Heavy Stubber. If your HW shooter has a good BS and starts targeting individuals he will generally take them one a round with 3-4 hits per FA/burst which will take out all but the most heavily armored targets.

Ammo is a concern for the HW due to weight so keep that in mind. Cover is your and your player's friend. High ground is also good for either side.

I wouldn't say a HW makes an encounter easy, just easier. 
 

[Sister Cat 0]

For what it's worth, I just recently ran my players through a mission where both they and the enemy had access to limited heavy weapons.

The players had a standard configuration Chimera with a hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, and a pintle-mounted Multi-laser.

The cultists (Pilgrims of Hayte) had access to converted Civilian Insurrection Vehicles with Heavy Stubbers, and a few had Missile Launchers with 2 Krak Missiles and four Frag Missiles each.

What I found was that, with the exception of a driver for the Chimera (requisitioned from their Inquisitor's personal troops), none of the players had skill at using heavy weapons.  And even if they had been, for the most part, the player's heavy weapons got used for anti-vehicle purposes, suppressive fire, and for destroying enemy barricades.  The enemies' Heavy Stubbers were next to useless, and it took 3 separate combats before one of the missile-firing cultists managed to cripple the Chimera.  Even when the enemy tried suppressive fire with the stubbers, they tended to fail the BS roll (with the -20 penalty for suppressive fire), so it was uniformly unaffective.

So effectively, I feel like I could have done the same thing, without vehicles or heavy weapons, and had the exact same outcome, except that it would have taken the players longer to get through all of the barricades (and perhaps had to waste a few more grenades) and get where they were going.  No real change.

Granted, the players also had access to very nice armor, from their Inquisitor's armoury.  But if I hadn't had any heavy weapons, I wouldn't have allowed quite as good a selection.  And let's face it, even with good armor, when it comes to heavy weapons, if it does get through, it is likely to hurt ... A LOT!    So I didn't see any unbalancing here, except for my poor cultists' pitiful die-rolls.

[jross2000xxx 0]

Good places to employ heavy weapons could be on any imperial world. (most buildings are spaced far enough apart that you wont risk hurting civvies)... Hive city battlegrounds or outskirts of hive cities the players would be moving slowly through somewhat dense groups of barricades and other hazards where a heavy weapon would be useful. If your players are able to carry the weight on them then I would allow it. Your players will find a time to use it. Even if that is in a sewer or any long stretch of hallway, corridor or open space.

One way that I have found to coral the use of heavy weapons in combat encounters would be the use of mounting for the weapon. If you give your players a mount for their turret or rocket launcher then they will use it. If your players are not used to heavy weapons then it could take up to 2 turns to set up the mounting properly. If they are familiar then it could take only one. That gives your NPC enemies time to formulate a plan or to rush the PCs before they are ready. Also it could give the PCs a mediocre bonus, 10 is usually good.

It also depends on what sort of game you are running. If your PCs are after cultists then they will most likely be in underground lairs or lower levels of hive cities. Less space to use a Heavy Weapon.

A trick I have used on my PCs with heavy weapons was to have a bigger tougher enemy chase them. The Heavy Weapon in question will slow them down or notify their enemy of their position. Have your PC it. Then it is gone and not have to be worried about.

[H.B.M.C. 191]

If it weighed 12kg, it might be more useful.

BYE 

[w176 1]

A lovely formula to is:

PCs with heavy weapons+ Antagonistic pyromancer= PC running in every direction and then a big BOOM!

[MKX 248]

We sort of have "The BFG Box" agreement.

If you open the BFG box, it means that everyone understands what happens when the BFG is taken out and shot at someone, I don't actually have a problem with the BFG, I just don't expect that it be-

A: Dragged around everywhere as a 45kg security blanket, doing so will attract attention, attention is bad, like at dinner parties (chicks think you are compensating for something), or while going down the shop to get some lho sticks (shop owners hate you because everything gets broken) or you sleep with it religously (you really have issues!)

B: Used as the preferred problem solver ALL the time, because that means the problem itself will just have to be expotentially increased to include BFG casualties in a situation that at some point has escalated from intimidation and a punch to the face in a back alley, to being akin to a full blown war.

By all means, if you're expecting a full blown war, bring a BFG or if you find yourself in the midst of a war requiring a BFG, run home and get it!

[talsine2 0]

MKX said:

We sort of have "The BFG Box" agreement.

If you open the BFG box, it means that everyone understands what happens when the BFG is taken out and shot at someone, I don't actually have a problem with the BFG, I just don't expect that it be-

A: Dragged around everywhere as a 45kg security blanket, doing so will attract attention, attention is bad, like at dinner parties (chicks think you are compensating for something), or while going down the shop to get some lho sticks (shop owners hate you because everything gets broken) or you sleep with it religously (you really have issues!)

B: Used as the preferred problem solver ALL the time, because that means the problem itself will just have to be expotentially increased to include BFG casualties in a situation that at some point has escalated from intimidation and a punch to the face in a back alley, to being akin to a full blown war.

By all means, if you're expecting a full blown war, bring a BFG or if you find yourself in the midst of a war requiring a BFG, run home and get it!

 

This is similar to what i have encountered in my games. If my players want to escalate the weapons they can but I, unlike them, don't have to pay for my ammo. and Missles are expensive. So far they've deployed a missle launcher a couple of times (mostly againest vehicles, once againest a cultist house they couldn't find a way into, so they made one) and a heavy stubber after capturing a hardpoint in the middle of a hive gang way (totaly their fault, they shot a midlevel gang boss in the underhive within easy eye shot of the rest of the gang. Sure he was a cultist, but they should've known better) Since everytime they've used them as been an appropriate use of force, i havn't busted them out too much. But our IG just got his hands on a relic heavy bolter and he really wants an excuse to use it, so we'll have to see how the next couple of sessions go

[Dalnor Surloc 1]

Heavy weapons are horrible if the bad guys can be bottled up, and lack access to smoke grenades or don't use smart tactics.  Also you should consider what reaction the NPC will have to the heavy.  If you have 3 guys with rifles and 1 guy with a heavy stubber.   Any sane group of NPCs will target the stubber until he goes down.  Also sane NPC won't throw themselves against a heavy weapon dug behind cover.  They will retreat and snipe the the heavy weapon guy.  They will set fire to the building.  They will flank the PC, or call in backup.  They will go break out their heavy weapons out of storage.....

[ZillaPrime 3]

On the topic of the original post, you will find that the Heavy Stubber is really not that much more heinous than someone blazing away full-auto with an Autogun loaded with Manstoppers.   It is huge and heavy.  It is very dangerous when properly used.   It sounds like you are giving the player a "propper use" scenario so I don't see an issue with it.

The biggest limitation of heavy weapons in Dark Heresy is they are utterly unsubtle.  People WILL notice them and know that some well connected heavy hitters from out of town have arrived on the scene.  This makes covert investigations very difficult!  But for those occasions when the Inquisition intends to brutally make their authority felt it would be inappropriate to leave the big stuff behind:  No half-measures for the condemned!

Pre-Ascention the cost of ammo for most heavys will be an effective check on escalating arms races.   Post-Ascention use of heavys is usually part of your end-game maneuvers as you seal the fate of those you have painstakingly gathered damning evidence against and really are quite fitting for the power level anyways.   Heavy Bolters are alot less of a "dragon fight" when you have Inquisitors, Temple Assassins, Death Cultists and Primaris Psykers tearing up the opposition.

[Friend of the Dork 15]

I love heavy weapons. First of all, they are generally more effective, enabling the acolytes to face more and harder adversaries than usual without killing them. Secondly, they are large and cumbersome enough that they can't always rely on them, and it's basically up to you to limit when and where they can use HW.

 

However Heavy Stubber by RAW is hardly that good. Ammo cap is good, but that's pretty much it. The actual damage output isn't that much greater than normal Autoguns (with manstopper), Manstopper ammo doesen't stack with inherent Pen, and having to Brace it means you either have to set up an ambush or waste a whole round Bracing (Full-auto only means Full-round only).

Range is good, meaning you can outshoot someone at longer ranges or rely on short-range modifier in most combats.

As it is it's good for gunning down mooks in tight formations or suppressing areas for multiple rounds.

The Arbitrator is better off picking a heavy stubber on his own, or maybe something really tough such as MP Lascannon, or HW from IH.  

 

Just FYI, I've added +1 to HS damage. helps to set it apart from other SP weapons. I'd also allow special Armor Piercing ammo for it, of course more expensive and rarer than normal Manstoppers. 

The gun was used to great effect in a combat where the PCs Airship (think Zeppelin) was attacked by an enemy ship, both used HS. 

[H.B.M.C. 191]

Yeah I already decided that we're using the RT profile for the Heavy Stubber, and his Stubber is the one with the 40-round Magazine (got it off an Arbite, and the actual Arbite model had the mag-based Stubber rather than the belt-fed one, so we kept it that way).

BYE

[Polaria 15]

I've used heavy weapons a lot in my campaign and they are not gamebreaking as long as you tune them to your adversaries and mission objectives. In one of my first scenarios I gave the players a Rhino with pintle-mounted stormbolter and put them facing large groups of adversaries in places where they could use the Rhino as backup fire-base but couldn't drive it inside all the places they need to go. It was fine. They still had to clear the mines and buildings out "old-fashioned" way by going inside but I could kick up a notch and have a few dozen people charging them in open with them still having a fighting chance.

In second scenario I put them against a honest-to-god traitor marine (normally way too overpowered for them) but gave them a few meltabombs and chance to have shuttle mounted lascannon shoot down the traitor if they manage to outsmart him out of the bunker into open with clear line of sight from the sky. Worked okay in the end even though I was a buit worried.

Then I've had them sneaking through a warzone into enemy headquarters. I gave them heavy stubber and grenades for actually getting to HQ and a chance to call in orbital laser strike (later dubbed "The Finger of God Emperor") to obliterate the HQ... The catch was that they wouldn't get the orbital strike untill the could actually confirm that the ultra-dangerous demonhost they were looking for would be hit by the strike. That worked quite nice too.

[TanithCmdr 0]

I believe that they don't change the game too much. It just allows the players more intresting ways of completing there missions.

[riplikash 157]

Kind of chiming in and agreeing with others here:

Heavy weapons can, and should be, devestating in the proper scenario. In a warzone an entrenched heavy weapon should spell doom to just about any group in the open down range.

But heavy weapons are given a small role for a reason. Outside of that EXACT scenario (group downrange) they are pitiful. If you are flanked, moving, in tight spaces, not in a warzone, or up against an individual, heavy weapons flows shine like a sun.

This being the case, they are a very balanced, situation weapon that can add some fun, but not destroy a compaign if your smart.

[the 8 spider 0]

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

[talsine2 0]

the 8 spider said:

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

 

its a vehicle mounted gattling chain gun that no real person could realisticaly use without hurting themselves and others. You could use it as a reflavored stubber without much work.

[graver2 4]

talsine said:

the 8 spider said:

 

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

 

 

 

its a vehicle mounted gattling chain gun that no real person could realisticaly use without hurting themselves and others. You could use it as a reflavored stubber without much work.

Usually called a Minigun... and while they can't juyst be toted around by some guy, doing such is very 40k ;-)

[ItsUncertainWho 3]

Instead of minigun, in 40K terms call it a Compact Man Portable Assault Cannon. 

Require 45 Str, Heavy SP Training, Must be Braced. Something along those lines. Don't have books to look up numbers but it should be doable with the right traits.

[Gregorius21778 249]

Everyone talking about the Heavy Stubber in here points towards "needs to be braced" (among other things).

The feral world IG (are their any other IG´s around, anway??) has the muscle and the intention to get "Bulging Biceps". As far as I understand, this allows him to use a heavy stubber without any bracing. I expect him to get "Rambo I" about things from their on.

But since the major benefit seems to be that he will be able to spew out a lot of shots it might be fine.

[Friend of the Dork 15]

Graver said:

talsine said:

 

the 8 spider said:

 

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

 

 

 

its a vehicle mounted gattling chain gun that no real person could realisticaly use without hurting themselves and others. You could use it as a reflavored stubber without much work.

 

 

Usually called a Minigun... and while they can't juyst be toted around by some guy, doing such is very 40k ;-)

 

Wait he said Russian character - the Minigun (actually a Microgun and definitely too heavy to use standing) was used by a black american and maybe by Schwarzenegger himself at one point. I can't remember what the Russians used if any... maybe a DSHK 12.7mm heavy machinegun? It looks very fitting for a heavy stubber, but so does any MG really. the DSHK is the equivalent of the M2HB .50 cal, and is often mounted on a wheeled carriage with gun shield. 

world.guns.ru/machine/dshk_001.jpg

[talsine2 0]

Friend of the Dork said:

Graver said:

 

talsine said:

 

the 8 spider said:

 

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

 

 

 

its a vehicle mounted gattling chain gun that no real person could realisticaly use without hurting themselves and others. You could use it as a reflavored stubber without much work.

 

 

Usually called a Minigun... and while they can't juyst be toted around by some guy, doing such is very 40k ;-)

 

 

 

Wait he said Russian character - the Minigun (actually a Microgun and definitely too heavy to use standing) was used by a black american and maybe by Schwarzenegger himself at one point. I can't remember what the Russians used if any... maybe a DSHK 12.7mm heavy machinegun? It looks very fitting for a heavy stubber, but so does any MG really. the DSHK is the equivalent of the M2HB .50 cal, and is often mounted on a wheeled carriage with gun shield. 

world.guns.ru/machine/dshk_001.jpg

 

He said "Predators" which is the new spin off from Predator, which is what your thinking about.

[ItsUncertainWho 3]

Here is an interesting link just found that discusses the problems with the hand held minigun. 

 

Gun Weight:  30 lbs (14 kg)
Ammo Weight: 35 lbs (16 kg) per 1000 rounds
Battery Weight: 7 lbs (3.5 kg) for 1000 rounds fired
Caliber: .223 NATO.
Overall Length: 39 inch (100 cm).
Action: Electrically Powered Gatling.
Mode of Fire: Full Auto Only.
Range: 1,000 feet (300 meters).
Magazine: 1000 round Backpack.
Cost: $ 25,000 for the Minigun alone.

[Friend of the Dork 15]

talsine said:

Friend of the Dork said:

 

Graver said:

 

talsine said:

 

the 8 spider said:

 

from france

i asked it in an another post butthe answer wasn't clear. i saw "predators"  does any one have seen the movie?  what is the weapons used by the russian character?  it lok like a hevay stubber but i have never seen it before.

 

 

 

its a vehicle mounted gattling chain gun that no real person could realisticaly use without hurting themselves and others. You could use it as a reflavored stubber without much work.

 

 

Usually called a Minigun... and while they can't juyst be toted around by some guy, doing such is very 40k ;-)

 

 

 

Wait he said Russian character - the Minigun (actually a Microgun and definitely too heavy to use standing) was used by a black american and maybe by Schwarzenegger himself at one point. I can't remember what the Russians used if any... maybe a DSHK 12.7mm heavy machinegun? It looks very fitting for a heavy stubber, but so does any MG really. the DSHK is the equivalent of the M2HB .50 cal, and is often mounted on a wheeled carriage with gun shield. 

world.guns.ru/machine/dshk_001.jpg

 

 

 

He said "Predators" which is the new spin off from Predator, which is what your thinking about.

 

Ah my bad. Hadn't heard about it until now. Maybe I'll see it next week for some brainless action...

[cycliclife 0]

I had a similar question myself. One of my PCs has just managed to “recover” a multi-laser off of a crippled IG sentinel. I was wondering how much of a pain this weapon is going to be. The PC is big enough to use it and could probably shoot it without bracing if need be. What I am concerned about is that I know the thing is going to be useless in the upcoming stage since they will be on a space hulk and the IG in the group already carries a sunfury plasma gun that he was given at the end of an adventure by their Inquisitor. I have already compensated for the plasma gun in the last arc, made their lives a little harder since he was carrying it around everywhere and they couldn’t really pass unnoticed. Am I worrying to much about the additional weapon unbalancing the game?