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Thoughts: Future of DH?

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egalor said:

 

 

Maybe. But the problem is that in DH as well - there are certain "particular advances" that are required to be taken by a char to be effective in game terms. I simply cannot imagine an assassin, for example, taking security-related test in favour of something else. Maybe it's different with lore- and trade-related skills (due to their number), but that's only the part of it.

 But I would also want to see a Pilot (to drive/fly vehicles), various specialisations of IG (heavu support, etc.), Heretek, Thief, Craftsman, Hiver (not Scum/Noble), i.e. to breathe in some more life into the carreers. Generally, however, we all (including me) like the current character system in DH, anyway.

 

 

 

I don't know.  The Assassin in the game I play in has his Security practically mastered.  He's also focused on range, as opposed to the seemingly more common close combat Assassin.  And while my Adept does indeed have a plethora of lores, he's more focused on Medicae, Tech-Use, and linguistics; whether ciphers, codes or Xenos tongues.  Oh, and I'm also the groups primary pilot and one of its two drivers.  Can't climb or swim for the life of me, though.

There's a lot of room to do things differently the way things are.  Could it have been better?  Sure.  Does it work okay as is?  Pretty much.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Brother Praetus said:

egalor said:

 

 I don't know.  The Assassin in the game I play in has his Security practically mastered.  He's also focused on range, as opposed to the seemingly more common close combat Assassin.  And while my Adept does indeed have a plethora of lores, he's more focused on Medicae, Tech-Use, and linguistics; whether ciphers, codes or Xenos tongues.  Oh, and I'm also the groups primary pilot and one of its two drivers.  Can't climb or swim for the life of me, though.

Ok, so apart from Swim and Scale Sheer Surface skills which is a matter of 300 XP, we have a jack-of-all-trades here? I believe this is where all the DH characters will come after 5-6 kiloexps. Not too much diversity...

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egalor said:

Ok, so apart from Swim and Scale Sheer Surface skills which is a matter of 300 XP, we have a jack-of-all-trades here? I believe this is where all the DH characters will come after 5-6 kiloexps. Not too much diversity...

 

Part of it depends on where you spend your XP - high characteristics mean fewer skills and talents and vice versa, and many alternate ranks grant abilities not normally accessible to a given career (or grant them at a different point in the character's progression). The point is that DH characters have a vast number more options - and that's the important part - in their progression than WFRP2 characters do (given that most of a WFRP2 character's advances are mandatory), and continue to progress without running out of options for far longer than WFRP2 characters... the point is that the argument of WFRP2 having 200+ careers against DH's 9 is a fallacy, because the structure of those careers is not directly comparable.

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I think what people are getting at is, that they feel constricted by a linear progression, rather than an open system which requires a character concept made up by the player and the requisite skills/stats and backgrounds bought to make that character a reality. So, if you absolutely must be Conan the Librarian a feral world Adept that spends all his xp on "knowing stuff", getting strong and chopping ******* down with 3ft of sharp iron, you can and not really be penalised for it to the point your character is a bit of a gimp.

To some extent I agree the system needs to be far more diverse with many more elite advance options, but open systems of character creation and progression tend to be newbie unfriendly

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

egalor said:

Ok, so apart from Swim and Scale Sheer Surface skills which is a matter of 300 XP, we have a jack-of-all-trades here? I believe this is where all the DH characters will come after 5-6 kiloexps. Not too much diversity...

 

Part of it depends on where you spend your XP - high characteristics mean fewer skills and talents and vice versa, and many alternate ranks grant abilities not normally accessible to a given career (or grant them at a different point in the character's progression). The point is that DH characters have a vast number more options - and that's the important part - in their progression than WFRP2 characters do (given that most of a WFRP2 character's advances are mandatory), and continue to progress without running out of options for far longer than WFRP2 characters... the point is that the argument of WFRP2 having 200+ careers against DH's 9 is a fallacy, because the structure of those careers is not directly comparable.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

the structure of those careers is not directly comparable.

An interesting point. I would say, that the designers meant to have nine carreers multiplied by a number of ranks in each carreer. In this regard, wfrp2 and DH would be comparable then. But the problem is that this approach provides less for good roleplaying options and play styles, each one of them being limited to nine, as opposed to wfrp2. That is, of course, relevant to you if you feel the difference between playing for a Lamp Lighter or Rat Catcher (on the other hand, of course, what could these people do for the Inquisition?). :)

Ah, yes, and the linear progression also clearly indicates this.

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Getting back on topic, for a post anyway...

I think some of the ideas for background books on the various classes in the game could be really interesting. Rather than devoting a 96 page book to the Adeptus Mechanicus or to the Ecclesiarchy, why not put out a larger book at around 256 pages with sections for each of the branches of the Adeptus Terra (Adeptus Sororitas, Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Arbites, Adeptus Administratum, Psykers etc...) providing background information, heirarchies, new player optional advancement branches, replacement ranks,  and relevant NPCs for each group that are currently living in the Calixis sector. It would also be kind of cool to get a few additional maps thrown in. I'd like to see a detailed imperial shrine or temple or how about including a map of an Adeptus Arbites compound.

Another book could do the same for (Assasins, Ecclesiarchy, Imperial Guard and Scum)

A book like this would be intriguing.

I'd also love to see a book dedicated to the powers of Chaos that presents more in depth information than what was provided in Disciples of the Dark Gods. It could be partially a Creatures Anathema dedicated to Chaos and partially indepth look into the warp and it's properties. It would also allow for a section to have some of the major named Daemon Princes detailed out (with stats and backgrounds.)

The books described above, I think would be VERY welcome to most DH Players/GMs.

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N0-1_H3r3 said:

egalor said:

Ok, so apart from Swim and Scale Sheer Surface skills which is a matter of 300 XP, we have a jack-of-all-trades here? I believe this is where all the DH characters will come after 5-6 kiloexps. Not too much diversity...

 

Part of it depends on where you spend your XP - high characteristics mean fewer skills and talents and vice versa, and many alternate ranks grant abilities not normally accessible to a given career (or grant them at a different point in the character's progression). The point is that DH characters have a vast number more options - and that's the important part - in their progression than WFRP2 characters do (given that most of a WFRP2 character's advances are mandatory), and continue to progress without running out of options for far longer than WFRP2 characters... the point is that the argument of WFRP2 having 200+ careers against DH's 9 is a fallacy, because the structure of those careers is not directly comparable.

Looking at DH careers in a more comparable light bassed on the amount of stuff each WHFRPG career gives, DH would have 233 careers.  For funsies, they are:

  1. Adaptus Sororitas Novice
  2. Sister Cantus
  3. Sister Constantia
  4. Sister Diologous
  5. Sister Famula
  6. Nunciate
  7. Sister Hospitaller
  8. Curia
  9. Almoness
  10. Sister Militant
  11. Elohiem
  12. Celestian
  13. Sister Superior
  14. Ssiter Legatine
  15. Sister Oblatia
  16. Black Priest of Maccabeus
  17. Bonded Emissary
  18. Calixian Xeno-Arcanist
  19. Chaliced Commissariat
  20. Feral Warrior
  21. Legate Investigator
  22. Malfian Bloodsworn
  23. Metallican Gunslinger
  24. Mechanicus Sectutor
  25. Moritat Reaper
  26. Reclaimator
  27. Sister Oblatia
  28. Templar Calix
  29. Tyrantine Shadow Agent
  30. Warden of the Divisio Immoralis
  31. Forsaken Priest
  32. Heretek Savant
  33. Imperial Diviner
  34. Malefic Scholar
  35. Maltek Stalker
  36. Mortiurge
  37. Penal Legionnaire
  38. Saboteur
  39. Sin Eater
  40. Tainted Psyker
  41. Warp Dabbler
  42. Infil-traitor
  43. Demagogue
  44. Scribe
  45. Inditor
  46. Lexographer
  47. Loremaster Lexographer
  48. Loremaster Magister
  49. Chirurgeon
  50. Comptroller
  51. Logister Comptroller
  52. Sage Logister
  53. Scholar
  54. Archivist
  55. Scrivener
  56. Proctor
  57. Marshal
  58. Lord Marshal
  59. Intelligencer
  60. Magistrate
  61. Justicar
  62. Trooper
  63. Enforcer
  64. Regulator
  65. Investigator
  66. Arbitrator
  67. Shadesman
  68. Nighthawk
  69. Secluse
  70. Death Adept
  71. Nihilator
  72. Imperator-Mortis
  73. Freeblade
  74. Assassin at Marque
  75. Assassin Palatine
  76. Assassin
  77. Sell-Steel
  78. Minstorum Initiate
  79. Priest
  80. Preacher
  81. Confessor
  82. Bishop
  83. Hierophant
  84. Exorcist
  85. Zealot
  86. Redemptionist
  87. Cleric
  88. Minstorum Novice
  89. Guard
  90. Armsman
  91. Sergeant
  92. Storm Trooper
  93. Commander
  94. Sniper
  95. Veteran
  96. Conscript
  97. Assault Veteran
  98. Lieutenant
  99. Scout
  100. Shock Trooper
  101. Captain
  102. Marksman
  103. Neonate
  104. Aspirant
  105. Savant Militant
  106. Savant Warrant
  107. Lieutenant-Savant
  108. Preceptor-Savant
  109. Scholar Empyrean
  110. Scholar Arcanum
  111. Savant Adjunct
  112. Scholar Obscurus
  113. Scholar materium
  114. Scholar Medicae
  115. Sanctionite
  116. Outcast
  117. Outlaw
  118. Renegade
  119. Rogue
  120. Gang Lord
  121. Charlatan
  122. Cutter
  123. Fixer
  124. Stubjack
  125. Shark
  126. Dreg
  127. Mech-Wright
  128. Electro-Priest
  129. Engineer
  130. Tech-Priest
  131. Magos
  132. Magos Errant
  133. Technomancer
  134. Mech-Deacon
  135. Cyber-Seer
  136. Omniprophet
  137. Technographer
  138. Inquisitor (x8)
  139. Interrogator (x8)
  140. Crusader (x8)
  141. Vindicare Assassin (x8)
  142. Death-Cult Assassin (x8)
  143. Arbitrator Judge (x8)
  144. Sage (x8)
  145. Imperial Storm-Trooper (x8)
  146. Desperado (x8)
  147. Arch-Magos (x8)
  148. Primaris Psyker (x8)
  149. Heirophant (because you just can't have enough Heirophants apparently) (x8)

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Brother Praetus said:

I don't know.  The Assassin in the game I play in has his Security practically mastered.  He's also focused on range, as opposed to the seemingly more common close combat Assassin.  And while my Adept does indeed have a plethora of lores, he's more focused on Medicae, Tech-Use, and linguistics; whether ciphers, codes or Xenos tongues.  Oh, and I'm also the groups primary pilot and one of its two drivers.  Can't climb or swim for the life of me, though.

There's a lot of room to do things differently the way things are.  Could it have been better?  Sure.  Does it work okay as is?  Pretty much.

-=Brother Praetus=-

 

The assassin in our game at the moment is going along a poison/spymaster route. 54 Int, Lore skills everywhere (including all the chemistry-based ones), and while I'm not sure about the rest of the skills and talents, he's basically playing a face-man and information gatherer. Come to think of it, I don't think we have a single 'dedicated combat character' amongst him, our darkhold psyker, either of our clerics (one is an Int 40 Redemptionist; he's scary), our arbitrator, OR our newfound adept.

I haven't found anywhere near the versatility in RT characters, and I'm not sure I'll find the same in DW.

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I'm thinking you are right about the careers of Dark Heresy and Ascension, perhaps it was my mistake to compare them with Rogue Trader.

So, the Sister of Battle is fine as she is, but it is better start with her fron 2000 px ... after all, she wears a powerarmor and use a bolter! ^_^

 

[sorry for my poor english]

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Sebashaw said:

I'm thinking you are right about the careers of Dark Heresy and Ascension, perhaps it was my mistake to compare them with Rogue Trader.

So, the Sister of Battle is fine as she is, but it is better start with her fron 2000 px ... after all, she wears a powerarmor and use a bolter! ^_^

 

[sorry for my poor english]

 

There are still going to be novices amongst the Sisters Militant of the Adepta Sororitas.  I would think such inexperienced sisters would not likely be so equipped.  I also think they would likely not commonly be deployed except in a supporting role to their more experienced Sisters.  Though, admittedly, 2000-4000 experience is probably about right for the typical Battle Sister deployed in a more active role.

-=Brother Praetus=-

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Brother Praetus said:

There are still going to be novices amongst the Sisters Militant of the Adepta Sororitas.  I would think such inexperienced sisters would not likely be so equipped.  I also think they would likely not commonly be deployed except in a supporting role to their more experienced Sisters.  Though, admittedly, 2000-4000 experience is probably about right for the typical Battle Sister deployed in a more active role.

-=Brother Praetus=-

You mean the way the career is now? 0-1,999xp covers novices, not full Sisters. At 2,000, character can enter the Hospitaller, Dialogous or Militant branch. Only Sisters Militant are Sisters of Battle (the others are still Adepta Sororitas, but 'Sisters of Battle' is a term applied only to Sisters Militant), and Adepta Sororitas characters can't become that until 2,000xp.

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I've never been pleased with the current Adepta Sororitas. It doesn't mesh with my understanding of how sisters become sisters. I especially dislike the approach to the branching tree.

The problem, for my group, at least, was that we wanted to play a Hereticus campaign. Most of our characters were recruited from the Ecclesiarchy and were serving a Witch Finder. Our Sister Dialogous did NOT feel like a dialogous and our Battle Sister had to wait forever to actually feel like a battle sister.

Combine that with a Cleric and an adept and it really become a hassle. Our Dialogous couldn't break codes or speak languages nearly as well as our adept who didn't even WANT to do those things. He was our Forbidden Lore guy but he out paced our Dialogous in every way... and not by a little. Our Cleric was able to wade into heretics at level 1 but our Battle Sister had to burn 2 faith points before she got to the stuff that made her feel like a battle sister.

Oh and did I mention that Famula are NOT an extension of Dialogous? They are distinct orders with different skill sets. The fact that you've got Ordo Hospitaller sisters running around with a bolter is also very un-fluffy to my understanding. They work with the guard most of the time and are not issued equipment like a Sister of Battle.

I guess that's my real problem, they treat the Orders as if they were just ranks and not the core difference in adepta sororitas who are extremely different from each other.

While the current system is fine for a single Sister in a team of acolytes it never quite feels like a Sister. Why is a novice being sent out of the covenant with a group of acolytes again? What about her insular life and limited training makes her appropriate to an acolyte cell?  I present to you this example:

Inquisitor Flay: I am assigning a team to investigate the cult of misrule here on Scintilla. I have gathered a band of specialized acolytes who I believe can handle the problem.  I have Brine, an underhiver from the gun city who, while a murderer, can blend in with the belly of the beast. Viktan, a tech priest whose obsession with the removal of flesh makes him resistant to the temptations of the cult. Finally I have Arbitrator Bandis, who was part of the initial raid that discovered the cults activity.  I have come to you Canoness for the final peace to my puzzle. Someone who can decipher the cryptic writings of the cult of misrule.

Canoness Maria: Ah yes, a fine band you have here. While of raw skill and temperament they are all clearly expendable in service to He Who Is On Earth. They may prove successful in the task you have set before them. I have exactly who you need. Sister Salia, she is 16 years old and has spent the last 9 months praying in the chantry and reading ancient texts. We taught her how to use a lasgun. She is of the Orders Dialogous, who are known for their logic and linguistic training. She doesn't have any of that yet so she can't actually do what you want her to do even though it's the most basic of skills and any adept in the ministorum 2 blocks down on the left has that ability. She is pure, chaste and knows the horrors of the galaxy only through the tales the Drill Abbots told her. She is a perfect companion for your group of rugged and deadly individuals who are in no way totally insane.

Inquisitor Flaw: Ah yes, that's what my cell of acolytes needs. Someone who can sing!

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ShatterCake said:

...I have come to you Canoness for the final peace...

Final peace? As you wish, Inquisitor. *BLAM*

gran_risa.gif Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

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