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moggle121

valkary rule question

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the valkary states that when a follower is killed he can take it as his own insted of placing it on the discard pile!

if a card states, discard a follower or lose a life, is that considered killing a follower? thus is a follower killed when he hits the discard pile any way shape or form or only when the word killed is associated with it or when its life force is drained or drops down the chasm etc?

 

i would assume it is killed when it hits the discard pile even if it satets, he then drifts off to the discard pile!

 

please clarify 

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i thought the same thing but there is nothing really that mentiones killed only 1 or 2 places example would be the vampiress who can drain the life force  which isnt the word killed or slain.

second opinions?

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I would be inclined to let her take any follower which goes to the discard for any reason.  I think that if you limit her ability to situations which use the word 'killed' (or 'slain', or anything else that entails death) the ability will suck.  I'd be interested to her session reports on how many followers end up in the discard after a full game (and then how many of those were "killed").

I also think it's silly not to apply this to situations where Death is implied but not explicit (such as vampire food, etc).  But this thinking will lead to uncertain cases, so we need a hard and fast rule.  Personally I'd rather a rule which includes followers which clearly didn't die than a rule which excludes followers which clearly did die (but don't say 'killed').

I'd expect to see this addressed when the FAQ is updated for the Highlands and Frostmarch.

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If a card said, "Lose a life or discard a follower," it implies that the follower is being discarded because their life is forfeit in place of yours. So, in that instance, I would say that the follower was killed and the Valkyrie can take him.

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We play that when in doubt, discard = death. If the card obviously says otherwise, say, the Treasure …Hunter? Seeker? The adventurer follower from the Highland that allows you to stop at objects… says, paraphrased “Wanders off to the discard pile”, that’s not death.

 

But an enemy that kills you and makes you discard a follower, or, lose a life, for us at least, it’s pretty clear… it’s another death. Otherwise, it makes the Valkyrie ability pretty crappy. Not “+1 in the Cave” crappy (cf Dwarf) but close.
 

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crimhead said:

 

I would be inclined to let her take any follower which goes to the discard for any reason.  I think that if you limit her ability to situations which use the word 'killed' (or 'slain', or anything else that entails death) the ability will suck.  I'd be interested to her session reports on how many followers end up in the discard after a full game (and then how many of those were "killed").

 

 

So how do you beat Valkyrie + St. Josephine again? Down to 1 Life, discard St. Joe, back to 4 Lives. Oh wait, St. Joe "died", so Valkyrie takes her back ready for more. Same deal with Hieromantyr, Valkyrie loses battle or psychic combat, discard Hiero to prevent life loss, oh, Hiero "died", she takes him back ready for more.

As for the usefulness of her ability, it's not like the Troll gets a lot of use out of his. If Valkyrie applied her ability to any discard pile hitting Follower, regardless of how, she'd easily become unbeatable like the Alchemist (pre-playing him of course).

I also think it's silly not to apply this to situations where Death is implied but not explicit (such as vampire food, etc).

Just because a Follower is dumped at Vampire's Tower, doesn't mean s/he is dead right away, could be kept in the larder for weeks/months, so the Follower wouldn't die right off the bat. For the Vampiress, her sucking blood and discarding a character could be that the Follower became too weak to continue to travel with her, but isn't dead, or became a spawn, revitalizing the Vampiress, but losing the Follower abilities it had.

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Dam said:

Just because a Follower is dumped at Vampire's Tower, doesn't mean s/he is dead right away, could be kept in the larder for weeks/months, so the Follower wouldn't die right off the bat. For the Vampiress, her sucking blood and discarding a character could be that the Follower became too weak to continue to travel with her, but isn't dead, or became a spawn, revitalizing the Vampiress, but losing the Follower abilities it had.

Dam,

this is getting way too much complicated.

I think the best houserule for the Valkyrie is : Resurrect every follower that got discarded anyhow *BUT* those that the Valkyrie chose to discard to benefit from an ability. This would eliminate the St..Jospehine loop.

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That's the thing, houserules tend to complicate things where trouble isn't found. Or at least seems so in this case. Use Valkyrie when Follower hits discard pile, except when discarded for X serio.gif . Also, would the Valkyrie be able to take a Follower if another character discarded said Follower, say. St. Joe? If so, why couldn't she take it when she herself discards it?

I prefer the strict reading of killed (or slain is mentioned a couple of times I think). Will she get tons of use out of her power then? Depends, she can still be unbeatable in battle with Champion or Faithful Hound (Follower steps up, loses, is killed, resurrect), but won't enable crazy combos with Hieromantyr and St. Joe for example. Does the Dwarf get complaints for his two abilities which work with just 1 card each from the Adventure deck (and with nothing from Dungeon or Highland AFAIK), namely Maze and Cave? He could very well be without two abilities and one wouldn't even notice them. Valkyrie starts with 7 points of stats, effectively 8 due to her first ability. Getting benefit from Graveyard as Evil is another useful ability. Her having one less useful ability doesn't really break her down much, does it? I would probably let her go at "any discard", if her ability was "You may resurrect each Follower once per game."

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I haven't the higland yet, but i think I'll  use her ability like this: you may take any follower discarded BY OTHER PLAYERS during your turn. no problem this way.

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Dam said:

That's the thing, houserules tend to complicate things where trouble isn't found. Or at least seems so in this case. Use Valkyrie when Follower hits discard pile, except when discarded for X serio.gif . Also, would the Valkyrie be able to take a Follower if another character discarded said Follower, say. St. Joe? If so, why couldn't she take it when she herself discards it?

I prefer the strict reading of killed (or slain is mentioned a couple of times I think). Will she get tons of use out of her power then? Depends, she can still be unbeatable in battle with Champion or Faithful Hound (Follower steps up, loses, is killed, resurrect), but won't enable crazy combos with Hieromantyr and St. Joe for example. Does the Dwarf get complaints for his two abilities which work with just 1 card each from the Adventure deck (and with nothing from Dungeon or Highland AFAIK), namely Maze and Cave? He could very well be without two abilities and one wouldn't even notice them. Valkyrie starts with 7 points of stats, effectively 8 due to her first ability. Getting benefit from Graveyard as Evil is another useful ability. Her having one less useful ability doesn't really break her down much, does it? I would probably let her go at "any discard", if her ability was "You may resurrect each Follower once per game."

Maybe the best thing would be making a list of all the effects that can discard/kill a follower and decide, for each, if they qualify for resurrection. I could also add that to my Unofficial Faq.

 

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talismanamsilat said:

Any Follower that is killed/dies/eaten/falls etc, not discarded Followers.

I think this explanation closes every possible issue. Champion/Faithful Hound loops are still possible, but what shall the Valkyrie do with Champion? Force the opponent to face an auto-win Enemy until it gets bored and gives up play? You can't be beaten, but you can't win either. Faithful Hound will be a better option, since it can make the Valkyrie safe from a Character that relies on Psychic combat to take her down, but in this special situation, why not? 

I think that playing with this Character will show some strange combination that has not been individuated so far.

I hope the Warhorse is "discarded" when you lose a combat...

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Dam said:

So how do you beat Valkyrie + St. Josephine again? Down to 1 Life, discard St. Joe, back to 4 Lives. Oh wait, St. Joe "died", so Valkyrie takes her back ready for more. Same deal with Hieromantyr, Valkyrie loses battle or psychic combat, discard Hiero to prevent life loss, oh, Hiero "died", she takes him back ready for more.

You can beat her with a mesmerism spell or by toading her.  She can also die to The Reaper, Hand Of Doom, Crown & Sceptre, Battle Royal (if she has no Talisman), or you can simply bypass her by defeating the Frost Queen or Eagle King.

St. Josephine is one card out of 300+, so it's unlikely even to be drawn in the first place - much less wind up with the Valkyrie.  From there she can have it stolen by several game effects; and even if she keeps St Joe all game she can still lose to any ending except Crown Of Command!  Well on the one hand this combo seems overpowered, it's surely obscure.  And it's not the only perpetual healing situation which can occassionally arise in this game (though it's admittedly the nastiest).

I hope they update the FAQ soon, 'cause until then I find myself hoping noone even draws the Valkyrie.  :(

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crimhead said:

You can beat her with a mesmerism spell or by toading her. 

Either of those options used if I was playing Valkyrie, I'd be hunting down the character who took St. Joe, attacking them (assuming I can beat them of course) until they are forced to either use her or die, either way, St. Joe comes back to the Valkyrie.

crimhead said:

She can also die to The Reaper, Hand Of Doom, Crown & Sceptre, Battle Royal (if she has no Talisman), or you can simply bypass her by defeating the Frost Queen or Eagle King.

Haven't tried any of the HL endings (no HL still), but apart from Hand of Doom, I doubt any will take the Crown of Command's place as the go-to ending. Hand of Doom just for its Horrible Black Voidness, but the others don't offer much in terms of end-game (phase from the moment someone reaches the CoC until the game ends), which is why the default CoC ending is my favourite.

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Hunting a character down and killing them is easier said then done.  If you're always in range it takes six turns (on average) to even land on them, and you have to kill them four times.  You're looking at twenty four turns, and that's if they never get out of range, never heal, and never win or tie in battle against you.  Hardly a viable strategy.

furthermore the act of pursuing a character or board space can take you away from the pursuit for general power, which makes you the underdog when you do catch them.

As for Crown of Command, I speculate that random hidden endings is the most popular way to play.  This makes CoC less than 15% likely to come up, if you're using the web based endings in the first place. 

If happen to be in a CoC ending (by choice or by chance), then perpetual healing is an occasional annoyance you simply have to live with - Valkyrie or not.

 

All this said, I do agree the combo is a bit distasteful. 

 

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Dam said:

 

 

Haven't tried any of the HL endings (no HL still), but apart from Hand of Doom, I doubt any will take the Crown of Command's place as the go-to ending. Hand of Doom just for its Horrible Black Voidness, but the others don't offer much in terms of end-game (phase from the moment someone reaches the CoC until the game ends), which is why the default CoC ending is my favourite.

 

 

Battle Royal is pretty awesome, I think.  Frost Queen and Eagle King can be interesting if a charcter has made it there in the ten to fourteen range.  Danse Macabre has some endgame too.  Some of these endings also change the staregies leading up to the endgame - especially when the ending is unkown.  The drawing of an edning itself is highly climactic, even if an anticlimactic ending is revealed.  I'm sorry you're not enjoying the new endings.  :(

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BR would probably be an insta-end, like Warlock's Quest ending. Talismans are rarely hoarded for long, City -> Alchemist is their traditional fate, even if Gold has pretty much no real worth (few specific Adventure cards notwithstanding). That is assuming you somehow got a Talisman in the first place. 3 in the 300 card Adventure deck (of which around 1/3 is generally seen). Ice Queen = Eagle King basically, those endings just create more need to grind for stats, then the game ends in one turn upon a character reaching CoC. Hand of Doom has the random element I like. But even that can be foiled, Fate + Twist of Fate Spell = auto-win, ditto for Lucky Charm and a few others. Crown and Sceptre just took the Sudden Death and added around one turn for each player on top of that, but CaS is basically Sudden Death.

Crown of Command is the only ending that offers an all-but guaranteed end-game. Could end fast if everyone was down to 1 Life, but not very likely. The tension of the catch-up when you're sitting on the Crown and another char who can kick your ass is storming across the regions toward you, man, it's awesome. It is also nervous for the character moving as Inner Region offers no chance for healing, so while you know you can kick ass, you're hoping those Command Spell rolls don't come up 4+.  Of course, could be the CoC ending is unplayable with the Alchemist, his Object-gold-lives all in one turn scam makes those nervous Inner Region strolls a thing of the past sad.gif .

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Picked up my HL today and played the first game (Alchemist won, big "surprise"). Sprite came across the Friendly Giant Follower, who when combined with the Valkyrie can provide a stand-off finale. FG can fight instead of the character at Str 6 or Craft 3, if it loses or stand-offs, it is killed, thus being perfect for the Valkyrie's wording. Rinse-repeat. If you somehow managed to lose to the FG, then it would just go away, but supposing your character has both stats at 12, Valkyrie comes to the Crown with FG, stalemate unless you can take a Follower somehow.

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I still think that I will houserule => No resurrecting followers killed in direct combat (ehm... maybe they are so eager to reach Valhalla), nor those that are actually discarded to "use them". This leaves still room for chasmed / vampiretowered / reaped / vampiressized / etc...

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