New List Archetype?

[JBFancourt 1,258]

Good Afternoon, Pilots!

 

So, I have been noticing something lately with my recent squad building and games played (casually) online that I don’t know if it is new or just “new” to me.  Feel free to comment, and if I’ve missed it thus far then I’m finally now on board. 

It is the rise of the Minion or Swarmet List Archetype. Basically, it is Ace + some sort of support/tech element + 3 “sturdy” minions (so not TIE/ln fighters or drones). 

I think this is arising from recent ship releases (especially Xi and LAAT), aces/toys going up, generic efficiency coming down, the general rise of a higher count ship meta making 2-die guns more prevalent. 

Now there are still all of your other classic list archetypes, too, but I feel this may be the new kid on the block. Here’s some examples:

First Order

Kylo + Malarus (Xi) + 3 TIE/fos (won a little store even with this recently)

Holo/Vonreg + Malarus (Xi) + 3 TIE/sfs

Republic

7B Jedi + Warthog + 3 Torrents (Vwings?) 

ETA Ace + LAAT + 3 Torrents

Imperials

Vader + Lyttan Dree + 3 BOTE V1s

Soontir + Named Striker + Lyttan Dree + 2 BOTE V1s

Rebels

Unsure, but definitely using the Awing as your 3 ship generic efficiency? Still seems a bit expensive compared to FO, Scyk, Torrent and V1. 

Luke + Hawk/Title + 3 As?

Seppies..... 🤷‍♂️ Sorry don’t own any. 

Resistance.... 🤷‍♂️ Just the Fireball here... idk... stick to As and T70s maybe

Scum

Fenn Rau + Drea/dorsal + 3 Scyks w/ Autoblasters

 

Clearly not an exhaustive list but centering around those 25 pt sturdy generics. 

My thoughts: I really like the multiple elements of the game is this archetype! I’d say it’s very cancer free/good clean Xwing fun at its purest, good for new players both to pilot and fight against. Has a fun blend of just general beefiness and ship numbers, but still having the fun and interesting decisions of aces and support. 

Can be flown really well, but you don’t instantly die if you make a mistake. Five arcs for good coverage. 

Also, turns out that the 3 agility works pretty good in the general meta right now with lots of 2 die attacks. 
 

Anyway.... bored at work. What do you think. 

[wurms 5,313]

I think it just falls under Ace + MiniSwarm archetype. The support ship is 98% of the time for your generics, and flies with them in formation creating a "mini-swarm". 

It is one of the more fun archetypes cause it gives you both jousty and ace play in a single list. Ive tried the Kylo Malarus + 3 and its pretty good. Enjoyed it alot. 

[HanScottFirst 349]

What about this for Rebels?

Free crit flipping if A-Wings get bullseye. Double mods for Wedge torps. Cassian for blocks.

You can also drop Cassian and put 1 A-Wing to just Starbird (could be good w/Wedge) to get K-2SO on AP-5 instead of Cassian. 

Green Squadron Pilot (30)

Marksmanship (1)

Deadeye Shot (1)

Green Squadron Pilot (30)

Marksmanship (1)

Deadeye Shot (1)

Green Squadron Pilot (30)

Marksmanship (1)

Deadeye Shot (1)

Wedge Antilles (54)

Proton Torpedoes (12)

Servomotor S-Foils (0)

AP-5 (32)

Cassian Andor (5)

Total: 199

 

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Edited December 2 by HanScottFirst

[JBFancourt 1,258]

42 minutes ago, wurms said:

I think it just falls under Ace + MiniSwarm archetype. The support ship is 98% of the time for your generics, and flies with them in formation creating a "mini-swarm". 

It is one of the more fun archetypes cause it gives you both jousty and ace play in a single list. Ive tried the Kylo Malarus + 3 and its pretty good. Enjoyed it alot. 

RIGHT?!?! 
 

It’s such a fun archetype! 

[Hoarder of Garlic Bread 2,556]

One of the most successful variants of this archetype is Vader + Scimitars, dating back to the launch of 2nd edition. Not as many bodies as Vader + TIE/ln's, but significantly more sturdy and higher dps. It lost favor once bombers and barrage rockets were increased, but now that Thread Tracers exist and Ion Missiles are super cheap, you can still have the whole squad focus. And since Thermal Detonators are very inexpensive, you can fly something like this:

An Elder Entity Awakens

Darth Vader (66)    
    Fire-Control System (2)    
    
Ship total: 68  Half Points: 34  Threshold: 3    
    
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (27)    
    Ion Missiles (2)    
    XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (2)    
    Thermal Detonators (3)    
    
Ship total: 34  Half Points: 17  Threshold: 3    
    
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (27)    
    Ion Missiles (2)    
    XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (2)    
    Thermal Detonators (3)    
    
Ship total: 34  Half Points: 17  Threshold: 3    
    
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (27)    
    Ion Missiles (2)    
    Thermal Detonators (3)    
    
Ship total: 32  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 3    
    
Scimitar Squadron Pilot (27)    
    Ion Missiles (2)    
    Thermal Detonators (3)    
    
Ship total: 32  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 3    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z173XW113WWY208XW101W332WWW339WY208XW101W332WWW339WY208XW101WWWW339WY208XW101WWWW339W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

It'll probably be better if you dropped some bomber fat and FCS for Afterburners on Vader, but I like symmetry in listbuilding.

[JBFancourt 1,258]

I’d call it a subset of Ace + mini swarm. 

[Vontoothskie 1,278]

Yeah this was very common in 1.0.

[Biophysical 15,760]

1 hour ago, wurms said:

I think it just falls under Ace + MiniSwarm archetype. The support ship is 98% of the time for your generics, and flies with them in formation creating a "mini-swarm". 

It is one of the more fun archetypes cause it gives you both jousty and ace play in a single list. Ive tried the Kylo Malarus + 3 and its pretty good. Enjoyed it alot. 

I agree, and it's my favorite archetype. 

[Cuz05 3,547]

I think it just wasn't quite as good, or varied at least, in earlier 2.0. Too prone to the 3 and 4 ship powerhouses. The gang has been buffed, the meta setters nerfed.

I imagine this being such a fun archetype is largely behind the resistance to gang nerfs.

I agree. But the mid Init uniques and their implausible synergies also needs to be good in order to keep the dark side of the gang at bay. They punish same same same same same efficiency boredom.

I mean, we're nearly there. It's good.

[Boom Owl 13,232]

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

I agree, and it's my favorite archetype. 

Same Team 



Random questionable notes copied from much older threads about the topic because the archetype is so **** fun. 

Ace + Squad 

• Why?
  • Requires you to be able to play at multiple init levels
  • Usually requires a couple different type of dials
  • Tactically interesting, the Squad doesn't always want to move or engage the same way the ace wants to, solving that is possible & critical.
  • Typically avoided by players looking for fewer dials to set or more obvious jousts
• Stuff:
  • Includes a “end game” or “high init” piece that is usually meant to be protected
  • Wants opponent to have to work through the Squad first, and to take time
  • Can setup 2 Optional Flanks, opponent’s choice unless they allow both
  • Squad Components usually include 3-4 Durable Pieces that can contribute + Ace
  • Some Ace + Squads allow 5-6 ships next to the Ace 
  • Fits a middle Ground between Beef and Trip Ace, but its usually not the best at either style which makes it good but typically not great 
    • Averages out your matchups against Higher Ship Count & some Aces lists
    • Hurts in some matchups against Ace Jousters & Reactionary 2-3 Ships or 4 ship ace lists
  • Capable of "mini" trades or multiple split engagements
  • Including a low init low cost blocker frees up pts for bid/other things risks init kill
  • Highlights the importance of Trading up
  • Benefits from 2-3 (3 dice pieces) but its not strictly necessary, 2 dice works
  • If it is overly “block” dependent for wins its probably not up to the power curve
  • Allows so much tactical flexibility its kinda endlessly interesting
  • The Squad element can expand or collapse as needed 
• Tactics
  • Squadron Screens
    • Ace deploys “behind” a wall, tends to trail or flank
  • Hold Back Ace
    • 100% held back until the board state has traded up
  • Full Joust
    • All pieces including Ace in on a “clustered” joust
  • Distributed Joust
    • Most common, all pieces in on a joust but “loosely” organized
  • Ace + Threat + Threat Pair
    • Similar to above but more about a 3 sided “box”
  • Individual Elements
    • Most distributed, everything operates as its own element and tries to arrive
  • Ace + Box Formation
    • Actually really useful a bunch of the time but risky and often unnecessary
• Vulnerable to:
  • Ace Flanker Traps
  • Tends to struggle against a variety of full ace lists which can cause it fits
  • Early Init Kill of a Squad piece followed by a ship count mismatch
  • Typically throws single modified dice ( decent # of exceptions )
  • Can be “out jousted” by a bunch of things, not a pure Jousting list typically
  • Most variants are difficult to include consistent mods on one or both sides of dice

Also happened to be our first worlds runner up archetype. 

Edited December 2 by Boom Owl

[ForceSensitive 2,623]

It's an older code, but it checks out.

It's never really left. Z2'S were doing this with ACE/ace/ace/gen/gen just last season. 

[JBFancourt 1,258]

I also like:

That it’s friendly for new opponents... they may never shoot at your Kylo the whole game but boy they can hammer away at your TIEs. 

Avoids NPEs for new players that have no idea how to treat outright swarms/2 ship/ aces lists.

Helps to teach target priorities. 

[Hoarder of Garlic Bread 2,556]

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I also like:

That it’s friendly for new opponents... they may never shoot at your Kylo the whole game but boy they can hammer away at your TIEs. 

Avoids NPEs for new players that have no idea how to treat outright swarms/2 ship/ aces lists.

Helps to teach target priorities. 

When I flew 3 ship Super Kylo, I'd refer to Rivas as the "28 point shield upgrade" for that reason. It's also why I love Plo crew on an ARC.