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JediPartisan

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Since AMG stated that they wanted to make their own games, I was hoping that they would create a smaller scale version of Legion like Armada is to X-Wing. They could easily have AT-ATs and AT-TEs or even LAATs and large scale forces where you do have an actual army, not just a few squads. Anyone else thinking of something like that, or maybe something else entirely?

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This is what I was hoping Legion was from the beginning. Each squad would be 5 or so troops on the same base and be around 5mm tall. Then you could have true legions worth of troops on the battlefield. Plus AT-ATs, Juggernauts, and flying vehicles that could cover ground like they actually move fast.

Unfortunately I feel that ship has already sailed (and dropped all the product to the bottom of the ocean).

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1 hour ago, thestag said:

This is what I was hoping Legion was from the beginning. Each squad would be 5 or so troops on the same base and be around 5mm tall. Then you could have true legions worth of troops on the battlefield. Plus AT-ATs, Juggernauts, and flying vehicles that could cover ground like they actually move fast.

Unfortunately I feel that ship has already sailed (and dropped all the product to the bottom of the ocean).

I hope not. You never know, because each type of game has its own attractors and detractors. There are lots of people that like the large scale of Armada, but not so much the individual scale of X-Wing. And there are players like me, who would enjoy both. So I don’t think anything is off the table yet. If FFG was still in charge, I’d say you’re probably right, but with AMG, there might still be a chance, even if it is slim.🤞

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It's certainly possible. But that depends on what the devs want to focus on. If they think the ground vehicles can support a game (because to be honest, at 5-15mm scale the vehicles become the modeling focus over the characters), and that's a part of Star Wars they want to focus on, then we'll get that game. 

I think that scale works best with the Clone Wars though, and not so well with GCW (besides the Empire really). Unless Disney lets them use the vehicles and such from some of the "Legends" video games, which isn't entirely impossible. I suppose they could use a bunch of fighters for ground attack craft, but then it starts to step on X-wing's toes... 

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2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Since AMG stated that they wanted to make their own games, I was hoping that they would create a smaller scale version of Legion like Armada is to X-Wing. They could easily have AT-ATs and AT-TEs or even LAATs and large scale forces where you do have an actual army, not just a few squads. Anyone else thinking of something like that, or maybe something else entirely?

I would really like a ground based game like this with vehicles and atmosphere air units. I don't know how much material there is to support GCW era though. It could be the first game to start from Clone Wars era instead of GCW.  

Edited by codytx2

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6 hours ago, codytx2 said:

I would really like a ground based game like this with vehicles and atmosphere air units. I don't know how much material there is to support GCW era though. It could be the first game to start from Clone Wars era instead of GCW.  

Here come those Ewok Boyz with their Dreadnought!

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11 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Since AMG stated that they wanted to make their own games, I was hoping that they would create a smaller scale version of Legion like Armada is to X-Wing. They could easily have AT-ATs and AT-TEs or even LAATs and large scale forces where you do have an actual army, not just a few squads. Anyone else thinking of something like that, or maybe something else entirely?

My theory is something in between Imperial Assault and Legion i.e. Star Wars Crisis Protocol. I have been informed by some that this is not marketable. I think though it presents a wonderful opportunity to sell 40mm scale or larger unpainted Star Wars models to both gamers and hobbyists. My question is whether AMG is a game company or a model company?

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

My theory is something in between Imperial Assault and Legion i.e. Star Wars Crisis Protocol. I have been informed by some that this is not marketable. I think though it presents a wonderful opportunity to sell 40mm scale or larger unpainted Star Wars models to both gamers and hobbyists. My question is whether AMG is a game company or a model company?

I think they will do this and I think it just might work with marvel crisis protocol since they’re both Disney.  Having Luke, Vader, mace windu and Han Solo vs Spider-Man, hulk, red skull, captain America and captain marvel is probably a nerd fantasy.  It’s not for me but maybe there’s a community that would love something like that.

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1 minute ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I think they will do this and I think it just might work with marvel crisis protocol since they’re both Disney.  Having Luke, Vader, mace windu and Han Solo vs Spider-Man, hulk, red skull, captain America and captain marvel is probably a nerd fantasy.  It’s not for me but maybe there’s a community that would love something like that.

I'm not thinking a combined game but I wouldn't entirely throw out the possibility. But I certainly look for them to create a way to sell unpainted models of Star Wars characters in the same size format they sell the Crisis Protocol models. There is likely merit to the idea that they'd be in competition with themselves for doing so.

It rather seems to me though they hold a monopoly on producing unpainted miniatures for two of the largest and most popular IPs. So the hobbyists buy Star Wars instead of Marvel -- they buy them from AMG. Not to mention all those folks who aren't interested in super-heroes who now buy Star Wars unpainted models. Those folks who don't want to paint entire squadrons of Legion Stormtroopers but very much want to paint Luke, Han, and Leia? 

Miniatures Games companies need to sell models. Look for them to find ways to sell more models. 

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2 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I'm not thinking a combined game but I wouldn't entirely throw out the possibility. But I certainly look for them to create a way to sell unpainted models of Star Wars characters in the same size format they sell the Crisis Protocol models. There is likely merit to the idea that they'd be in competition with themselves for doing so.

It rather seems to me though they hold a monopoly on producing unpainted miniatures for two of the largest and most popular IPs. So the hobbyists buy Star Wars instead of Marvel -- they buy them from AMG. Not to mention all those folks who aren't interested in super-heroes who now buy Star Wars unpainted models. Those folks who don't want to paint entire squadrons of Legion Stormtroopers but very much want to paint Luke, Han, and Leia? 

Miniatures Games companies need to sell models. Look for them to find ways to sell more models. 

So they buy the individual models of Luke, Han, and Leia from Legion if all they want is those specific characters to paint. More models are sold by having a game that requires that model than by just making the model. That's why many model companies also produce some kind of ruleset, or at least team up with a game dev to feature their miniatures in the rulebook. If they want to just produce the model, then it's cheaper by far to just release the model with no game attached. 

The other selling point of these games is the rulesets, as we see from people who dislike the Legion rules and want the game to be different, moreso the ones who state the rules are keeping them from buying in. I play A Song of Ice and Fire for the rules alone, I have never watched Game of Thrones, and only read a bit of the first book before deciding it wasn't to my liking.  But I really enjoy the game that has been constructed in that universe, and find the aesthetic fine for a fairly generic fantasy universe. 

People in general only have a limited amount of hobby money to spend. So if they want to play an MCP style Skirmish game and a wargame, and love Star Wars, then they will buy just the Star Wars version of both games. If the Star Wars version doesn't exist, then they buy MCP and Legion. So AMG would be producing two games in different universes, which by the separate license agreements may not even be ALLOWED to cross over. Since they both have similar rules, scale, etc, they would fill a similar niche in the gaming market. 

Another major challenge with making an MCP style game in the Star Wars universe is that Star Wars doesn't have anywhere near the depth of characters. It strikes me as a larger version of Imperial Assault, which had MANY generic models in it. But MCP doesn't really seem to lend itself well to a having minion groups of faceless mooks. 

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1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Another major challenge with making an MCP style game in the Star Wars universe is that Star Wars doesn't have anywhere near the depth of characters. It strikes me as a larger version of Imperial Assault, which had MANY generic models in it. But MCP doesn't really seem to lend itself well to a having minion groups of faceless mooks. 

TBF if it's set in the Clone Wars era there are literally dozens of Jedi so I don't really see that as a realistic barrier.

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Actually, Star Wars probably has a better market for minion groups and Faceless mooks.

See how GA-GA we all went when the mandolorians showed up and how much passion for different types of Stormtroopers, Scout troopers, Flame troopers there is (not to mention the many iterations of clones) Marvel will run out of well-known named characters in the next 18months at their current breakneck pace. The movies have a much greater and wide-spread audience than the comic books ever did.  A well designed game will take this to the next level and sell well I think in the Star Wars universe.  There are more tv shows and movies coming for Star Wars as well.

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3 minutes ago, Bobthe4th said:

TBF if it's set in the Clone Wars era there are literally dozens of Jedi so I don't really see that as a realistic barrier.

Okay... Dozens of Jedi fighting who exactly? I don't think Disney is likely to Okay a game where Jedi are fighting each other as a core component.

 Compare this to MCP where there are literally HUNDREDS of characters. Not to mention alternate universe versions... 

EDIT: The issue with faceless mooks in MCP style games is that they are only really a threat to the heroes in large numbers. So making fielding a solo Stormtrooper to fight Luke and Leia balanced will get the feel of the universe off a bit. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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24 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So they buy the individual models of Luke, Han, and Leia from Legion if all they want is those specific characters to paint.

MCP and Legion models are not the same scale. I am suggesting a gameline with larger than Legion scale figures. 

26 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If they want to just produce the model, then it's cheaper by far to just release the model with no game attached. 

I don't think you're looking at this like an IP licensor or IP licensee. There is already a company that is probably licensed to produce Star Wars models. The license here is to produce Star Wars miniature games of which models are a part. They probably can't make just models. Like FFG can't make Star Wars board games (with exceptions) AMG probably can't simply release models. But unpainted game pieces?

The money is to be made in selling models. FFG gives away the rules. The rules don't have to be any good if the models are nice enough. Gamers will make up their own rules. Better rules and better games sell more models. No disagreement. But I think it is pretty short-sighted or lacking in imagination to think there isn't a market for 40mm or larger unpainted Star Wars character models because you don't know what sort of game would make sense around that. 

It doesn't have to be a long-lived market. It needs to be long-lived enough or popular enough to make the company enough value to be sold at a profit. 

 

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@Frimmel I understand you are talking about a different scale. But if all someone wants is a model in a different scale, they can easily find that through any number of 3rd party 3D printing sites these days. If they want an official model, then just buy one a little smaller. Edit: or buy an action figure and repaint it, like quite a few people do.

I also understand how the license stuff works. But we still have AT-STs from Bandai in a similar scale to Legion, and if AMG thought the market was only enough to support a few upscale versions of specific characters, they could always negotiate with Disney or release them as convention exclusives. The game at a larger scale still needs to be approved by LFG, so if they don't think it captures the "feel' of Star Wars because it allows for Yoda to team up with Palpatine, or always requires Jedi to be fighting each other due to a lack of character options, they aren't likely to allow it to exist even long enough to sell a few miniatures. 

The rules have to be good enough to support the models existing. People may buy generic fantasy or sci-fi models to use with a different ruleset, but the models will sell SIGNIFICANTLY better if the customer KNOWS they can walk into any game store and get a pickup game with an established rule set rather than having to convince people to play using random home brew rules. The most successful model only companies that I know of are either historicals (which have so many generic rulesets you can always find some game to use the models for) or are piggybacking on GW. There has to be some widely accepted game to use the model for in order to drive sales to the point of being very profitable. There are many people here that ONLY want to play a Star Wars game, they don't want to be pitting their Stormtroopers against Necrons with make do rules and "counts as," they want to have tables full of Stormtroopers and Rebel fighting for the fate of the galaxy. 

If the money was to be made solely in selling the models, then Bandai should have flooded the market in these scales long ago. Why pay a game designer at all to spend time writing a game and further have them spend hours trying to balance it?

WotC wanted to produce starship miniatures for use with the RPG. The Lucas Film Group would not let them produce the models without a ruleset to make the models a stand alone game, so they produced a very basic, rather bad ruleset to fulfill the requirements. The game failed hard and people didn't buy the models because the game was bad. It didn't matter that the models were the ONLY models on the market at the time (well before 3D printing) or that "people could make up their own games." There was zero innate incentive to buy the models since the game was bad. If X-Wing hadn't rebooted to v2, the game would likely have ended due to all the issues with the game. But according to you, they shouldn't have bothered. There is always more money to be made by keeping a game running successfully for longer than scrapping it and having to start over. 
Say they release the MCP size game you want but only make a rule set long enough to get a profit. Star Wars continues to be a thing years after that game ends, but now there are a whole bunch of NEW characters that people want at that same scale. So now in order to release that, the company has to restart manufacturing from scratch, which is costly. On the other hand, if they made the rules sturdy enough to continue the game for those years, then it is MUCH easier to add the new characters in and make a profit. 

I'll say it again, customers only have a limited amount of hobby funds to spend. If I have the option of spending money on more expensive "licensed product" miniatures with a terrible or non existent game attached, or cheaper generic sci-fi miniatures  with similarly no game attached, I'll lean more towards the generic sci-fi miniatures since I can get more of them for my dollar, and they are better suited to a variety of game settings. 

Edited by Caimheul1313

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I do have to agree that "Legion" is a horrible misnomer for the type of game they set out to make, but it is what it is. And to be honest, I remain much more irked by how they're misusing the term "corps". Anyway, I would love an "Epic" scale game (to use 40K terminology), but it really is much more authentic for the Clone Wars, outside maybe the tail end of the Galactic Civil War post-Endor. Then again, nothing authentic about Palpatine on the battlefield, either.

I also see room for a game with extra fancy "Inquisitor" scale miniatures, but due to aforementioned thematic issues most definitely not a Star Wars adaptation of MCP (outside maybe The Old Republic, but this would lack the draw provided by movie characters). What would work at such scale is something along the lines of said 40K spinoff, an RPG-y dungeon crawler. In other words, a revamp of Imperial Assault (which is also quite a bad fit of a name, by the way).

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On 11/19/2020 at 9:48 AM, lologrelol said:

I'd prefer 10mm for a mass battle game version of legion. In plastic. That would be pretty cool.

If you want to have recognisable characters, smaller than 15 mm will be challenging.

Edited by Rumar

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