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Humantorch101

Changing heroes that have been badly received?

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Do you think fantasy flight will ever update or amend heroes that have been badly received by the community? 

I am thinking of specifically Hulk and Thor who are amoung the most powerful marvel heroes but in the game have been nerfed so badly in many players opinion that they are just not that much fun to play, or are seen as weaker than most. 

I feel it could be a possibility as it could be as easy as just replacing the hero identity card to make a big difference. 

Hulk for example could really benefit from Bruce banners hand size being increased and the same could be said of Thor. 

Maybe Thors base damage could be increased to 3. 

With Banner why as he is one of the smartest characters in the marvel uni can he not break the six hand size rule and start at 7? This would give a play style for Hulk more like Iron Man where you build him up before unleashing the Hulk. 

What's your thoughts? 

Would they ever do it? And should they do it? 

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I think many would hops so. I think it may just depend on their pride. If they feel that changing adjusting the hero to make the players(buyers) happier will be humiliating then they won’t. No one really likes to be wrong. But if they do swallow pride and do something that will really make the players happy. Then the players will feel they were heard and that FFG is a part of this community. Instead of the mighty hand from on high that just gives(sells) content. I hope they do something and join us in the present not just plan for a future change 10 months down the road. Even a print and play change would be great.

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They probably won't change there products, cause...

1. That would be unfair to anyone who has those previous products.

2. Some heroes are going to be weaker than others, and I don't think changing a few stats would be the right way to alleviate that. I would think Hulk and Thor would be a little op if you changed them how some people have changed them on discord.

3. If we're talking about swallowing pride, I think those solo players should swallow there pride. I know a lot of solo players don't hate Hulk and Thor, and I know that a lot of multiplayer players hate Hulk and Thor, but the majority of the hate comes from solo players. Thor is honestly the most op in any minion heavy deck, and Hulk is just great in game, as long as he has some friends to handle threat and attachments and whatnot. They're both great heroes in multiplayer. But they get a bunch of hate from solo players. They've even said that the game was geared towards multiple players, even though it works by yourself.

Bottom line is, if you don't like a product, don't freaking buy the product. Sorry if you're one of those people that pre-orders every product that's there's beforehand, maybe don't pre-order everything if you don't like all of there products. They're great characters, and if you want to play them how they're not meant to be played, go for it. But swallow your pride and don't expect to be tailored to buy the devs.

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The best thing about this game is precisely that the heroes are different. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

That said, it is true that some of them have not been well received by the community. I don't doubt that the same people who say they don't like the Hulk because he's not powerful enough, would soon complain if the Hulk could deliver 10 damage hits every phase, he would beat all the villains with two rounds. They would get bored.

But when they make up for it by discarding the whole hand at the end of the phase, they complain that it is not powerful enough ... human beings are like that.

I don't think any heroes need to be reissued, basically because they are perfectly themed. The Hulk change from hero to alter-ego in an uncontrolled way ... just like the Hulk in the comics. Spiderman can entangle his enemies in spiderwebs. IronMan must assemble his armor before he can do anything. Dr. Strange has his own spell deck and uses his levitation cloak and Agamotto's eye. Thor can launch and search for Mijolnir. Captain America can launch his shield to damage multiple targets at once ... etc, etc ...

You may not win the game, but when you play, you really feel like your chosen hero.

However, it seems that the 'constructive criticism' has permeated FFG. The last aspect cards I have seen seem to be able to modify or compensate for the defects of heroes that have not been well received even though it seems to make no sense within the aspect itself.

I've seen Justice cards capable of dealing damage to an enemy when the aspect's objective is scheme. I have also found Aggression cards that can scheme when an enemy is defeated, when the objective of the aspect is to deal damage or Protection cards that can deal damage when you defend and do not take damage yourself ...

A few months ago, an Aggression deck depended on the allies or the hero for the scheme and a Protection deck served to heal your characters and others but having to exhaust yourself to defend you depended on your allies to do damage ...

I think it's intentional that the Aspects start to mix and start to lose the differences between each other. The pool of cards allows you to be faithful to the design of your hero and strengthen his strengths or choose those cards within your aspect that cover his defects. In a way you can change the hero if you don't like it. The more the pool of cards increases, the more possibilities you will have.

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Thor is dependent on the amount of minions in a scenario and ranges from fine to great based on that.   He plays better than most people thought from just looking at his cards, and getting engagement-manipulating cards in other aspects will improve his options.

Hulk missed the mark on a few things so I'd expect more aspect cards designed to prop him up than errata or a complete re-do anytime soon.

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There are three relatively easy things to do...

1) Make a new version of the Hero someways down the road that does not replace the current Hero but gives a different option.  They did this with LotR Heroes.  This is perhaps the least likely because they would have to decide if they also want to create alternate signature cards and how they would do that.

2) Make some aspect/basic cards that are tailored to helping out the more challenging Heroes. They can make cards that play off the keywords.  For example, a 1-cost card card that removes thwart equal to the number of Asgard cards in play would boost Thor trewmendously.    Or perhaps a 0-cost card that draws cards equal to damage dealt to a minion would accelerate Hulk.  Or just making an aggression dual resource cards that can only be used to pay for attacks that cost exactly 3.  Or dual resource cards that can only be played if the number of cards you control is less than your hand size.

3) Make scenarios where these Heroes shine.  It would be a fairly simple math model.  Just make a scenario that puts out 4 or 5 thwart a turn and pumps out confuse locks so that a thwarting hero just cant keep up, but a high damage hero can.  Alternatively they can make "Battle" scenarios that use ATK instead of THW when thwarting or "Siege" that uses DEF instead of THW.

Edited by IceHot42

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I've really liked all the heroes, except Black Panther. I don't know why, I just kind of found him boring the few times I've played him. Thor and Hulk are a couple of my favorites just for how much damage they can kick out. 

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7 hours ago, maniakmedic said:

I've really liked all the heroes, except Black Panther. I don't know why, I just kind of found him boring the few times I've played him. Thor and Hulk are a couple of my favorites just for how much damage they can kick out. 

I agree with you. Black Panther is by far my least favorite hero to play, and I can't figure out why.

I find him very effective, and I've built some decks with him in multiple aspects that kick ***. I just don't have fun playing him. I haven't gone back to him in a few months though, so I probably should. But in short, I don't think he is a bad hero, just my play style doesn't seem to have fun with him.

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15 hours ago, aeixea said:

I've seen Justice cards capable of dealing damage to an enemy when the aspect's objective is scheme. I have also found Aggression cards that can scheme when an enemy is defeated, when the objective of the aspect is to deal damage or Protection cards that can deal damage when you defend and do not take damage yourself ...

Chase Them Down was in the core set. Aggression removing Threat has been in the game since the beginning. Counter-Punch is in the core too. Protection dealing damage has been in the game since the beginning.

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On 11/17/2020 at 8:53 AM, Venompuppy said:

Bottom line is, if you don't like a product, don't freaking buy the product. Sorry if you're one of those people that pre-orders every product that's there's beforehand, maybe don't pre-order everything if you don't like all of there products. They're great characters, and if you want to play them how they're not meant to be played, go for it. But swallow your pride and don't expect to be tailored to buy the devs.

And here we have it. I and many players like Hulk. FFG markets buy and play your favourite hero. Hulk is many players favourite hero. Then we play it and instead of a Green goliath that every hit is harder than the last we get someone more like The Leader do complex math to try and do damage. I like him. I play him duo. He feels subpar or i should say at the bottom of the barrel. I can change him myself but it would be nice if FFG who said they nerfed him in play testing would maybe unnerf him a bit. For now i'll pull him out every so often to check if any new cards help. But I don't think the signature cards should depend on new aspects or basic cards to make them great.

Edited by Pharce
addition

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Taking a quick peek around here after putting away the game for the last several months, I'm glad to see discussions remain the same. 😂

I've just ordered Kang, Ant-Man and the Hulk. Personally, I don't think I will play Hulk much. I've been a little disappointed in how he turned out after watching some videos. I thought he might be the quintessential tank-style Protection hero (as opposed, say, to the more elusive style with Spiderman), but I don't know that it's feasible right now. I think Groot will earn that title more easily.

10 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

I agree with you. Black Panther is by far my least favorite hero to play, and I can't figure out why.

We all have those, and I can't figure out why either. :P In my case, it's Iron Man who has earned my complete and somewhat unexplainable disinterest. 

Edited by Ascarel

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10 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

I agree with you. Black Panther is by far my least favorite hero to play, and I can't figure out why.

I find him very effective, and I've built some decks with him in multiple aspects that kick ***. I just don't have fun playing him. I haven't gone back to him in a few months though, so I probably should. But in short, I don't think he is a bad hero, just my play style doesn't seem to have fun with him.

I enjoy Black Panther.   Captain Marvel is the least interesting to me followed by She-Hulk.  

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This is derailing a bit.

How about we start a threat where everyone ranks the heroes from favorite to their personal bottom of the barrel?

With a favorite aspect added for each hero & a snippet on reasoning why.

It's a good moment to do so me thinks, as Wasp will not release until January. 

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@Ascarel
"I thought he might be the quintessential tank-style Protection hero (as opposed, say, to the more elusive style with Spiderman), but I don't know that it's feasible right now. I think Groot will earn that title more easily."

Hulk is well positioned to be a brutally effective Tank; 3 DEF, 4 REC, and 18 HP is, by far, the beefiest character in the game.
Pop on Armored Vest for 4 DEF, Downtime and his Laboratory for an astounding 8 REC, Immovable Object + Endurance for 25 HP, and Immovable Object + Electrostatic Armor + Boundless Rage + Counterpunch for the ability to deal 7 damage to an enemy while entirely shrugging off the first 5. 

If you have Desperate defense, that can block 7 damage and ready Hulk, or use Indomitable to pre-establish the ready, and Unflappable to help mitigate Hulk's hand size.
Another nice benefit of going Protection is that Banner's Laboratory helps pay for basically all those upgrades. (I'd also consider adding in Resourceful to help fence the Banner lab resource into a hero side resource for future turns).

 

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6 hours ago, Noccus said:

 

This is derailing a bit.

How about we start a threat where everyone ranks the heroes from favorite to their personal bottom of the barrel?

With a favorite aspect added for each hero & a snippet on reasoning why.

It's a good moment to do so me thinks, as Wasp will not release until January. 

identity card stat lines

Best ATK score: 3 (Ant-Man (giant), Hulk, She-Hulk)

Best THW score: 2 (Black Panther, Black Widow, Captain America, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, Iron Man)

Best DEF score: 3 (Ant-Man (giant), Groot, Hulk, Spider-Man, Wasp (giant))

Best REC score: 5 (Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk)

Best HP: 18 (Hulk)

Worst ATK score: 1 (Ant-Man (tiny), Doctor Strange, Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Quicksilver, Rocket Raccoon, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Woman, Wasp (tiny))

Worst THW score: 0 (Hulk)

Worst DEF score: 1 (Captain Marvel, Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, Quicksilver, Rocket Raccoon, Spider-Woman)

Worst REC score: 3 (Ant-Man, Black Widow, Captain America, Doctor Strange, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Quicksilver, Rocket Raccoon, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Woman, Wasp)

Worst HP: 9 (Black Widow, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Quicksilver, Rocket Raccoon)

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I don't think they'll errata or change existing heroes. They simply don't have the time or products to do so - they've got 80 years worth of Marvel characters to cover! 

I do think they'll subtly use Aspect and Basic cards to give heroes a boost here and there. 

I think Thor is fine, to be honest. Yeah he's a little clunky in solo, especially with Aggression - but all low THW heroes will struggle more in solo aggression - it's just the way the game works. 

Hulk is another kettle of fish as far I'm concerned. His kit is a mess, and his identity card - and those can't be changed, even if he does receive favourable Aspect/Basic cards over the game's lifespan.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I don't think they'll errata or change existing heroes. They simply don't have the time or products to do so - they've got 80 years worth of Marvel characters to cover! 

I do think they'll subtly use Aspect and Basic cards to give heroes a boost here and there. 

I think Thor is fine, to be honest. Yeah he's a little clunky in solo, especially with Aggression - but all low THW heroes will struggle more in solo aggression - it's just the way the game works. 

Hulk is another kettle of fish as far I'm concerned. His kit is a mess, and his identity card - and those can't be changed, even if he does receive favourable Aspect/Basic cards over the game's lifespan.  

 

 

One thing I’d note is that Hulk, because his default deck has only 3 allies, you must be extremely self-conscious about getting those into play to have mitigation for turns where none of the thwarting event cards come into hand. I’d strongly consider adding in Nick Fury, Miles Morales, or perhaps War Machine, just to give another option. 

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I created a Hulk aggression deck that beat the rise of Red skull campaign no problem solo. The trick was I was completely damage focused, so I killed most of the villains in 3-4 rounds. I only had two allies. Mockingbird to stun him some more, and Lockjaw in case I was desperate.

Then I tried expert with him, and let's just say you need a better plan of attack, that's not just attack. 😂

Crossbones got too many experimental weapons out (and those power gauntlets are just the worst for Hulk), and Absorbing man piled on the threat everytime somehow. But it worked great for standard.

 

Edited by Venompuppy

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15 hours ago, Derrault said:

@Ascarel
"I thought he might be the quintessential tank-style Protection hero (as opposed, say, to the more elusive style with Spiderman), but I don't know that it's feasible right now. I think Groot will earn that title more easily."

Hulk is well positioned to be a brutally effective Tank; 3 DEF, 4 REC, and 18 HP is, by far, the beefiest character in the game.
Pop on Armored Vest for 4 DEF, Downtime and his Laboratory for an astounding 8 REC, Immovable Object + Endurance for 25 HP, and Immovable Object + Electrostatic Armor + Boundless Rage + Counterpunch for the ability to deal 7 damage to an enemy while entirely shrugging off the first 5. 

If you have Desperate defense, that can block 7 damage and ready Hulk, or use Indomitable to pre-establish the ready, and Unflappable to help mitigate Hulk's hand size.
Another nice benefit of going Protection is that Banner's Laboratory helps pay for basically all those upgrades. (I'd also consider adding in Resourceful to help fence the Banner lab resource into a hero side resource for future turns).

 

The theory is convincing, I know that. I'm just not sold on the reliability of it. Things happen in the course of a game, obviously, and the choice between reacting and building is made much worse by a low hand size and no reliable card draw engine to come with it (including the draw 1/discard 1 on the alter-ego, which is disappointing for genius scientist when you compare it with, say, Captain Marvel). Protection is _a lot_ about building your board, and cards like Counterpunch (which I otherwise love) cripple your choices even more when your turn starts. Basically if you don't have Unstoppable Force you will likely face tough choices a lot of the times. Not saying you can't pull it all off. I just don't think it can be _reliable_. Sure Hulk is Hulk, but then in this case I'd rather play the tank in Aggression instead.

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I like a lot of the ideas they had for Hulk, I just think it really comes down to an issue where it’s a little hard to do anything.

I think you could keep the theme, but make him a bit better if you gave Hulk immune to stun and draw a card whenever he takes damage (to represent his growing rage) and swapped Banner’s ability for “You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry! - Discard a card to search your deck or discard pile for a copy of Limitless Strength and add it to your hand. Shuffle your deck”

That way you could keep the feeling of a desperate scientist getting by on his wits and an uncontrollable monster, but with the ability to have some more explosive turns...

Edited by FearLord

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48 minutes ago, FearLord said:

if you gave Hulk immune to stun and draw a card whenever he takes damage (to represent his growing rage)

This is such a good idea, it hurts. 😂

Edited by Ascarel

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28 minutes ago, Ascarel said:

This is such a good idea, it hurts. 😂

Either that or something like ‘add a rage token every time you start the hero phase in Hero form. Hulk’s hand size is +1 for each rage token. When he switches to alter ego remove all rage tokens from Hulk’ - with a max of say 5 - that way your hand size grows as he gets angrier and more powerful, but it all goes away when he changes back...

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Either that or something like ‘add a rage token every time you start the hero phase in Hero form. Hulk’s hand size is +1 for each rage token. When he switches to alter ego remove all rage tokens from Hulk’ - with a max of say 5 - that way your hand size grows as he gets angrier and more powerful, but it all goes away when he changes back...

I would have liked...

Response: Add a rage token to Hulk every time you defend with Hulk.

Hero Action: Remove all the Rage tokens from Hulk -> draw a card for each Rage token removed.

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