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Also, the Hardcells aren't the flotillas from the original factions. They'll most likely be able to weather a few hits at medium range, vs. the flotilla's tendency to spontaneously combust when it doesn't have it's scatter available.

 

I think the fleet support being on the cheaper one threw some people for a loop. It's not a GR75 with good dice, it's a Nebulon with a fleet support.

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9 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

A Nebulon B with Slicer Tools doesn't sound like a good thing to you?  Sounds fun to me. 

Maybe? That sounds interesting. Are they speed 3? Maybe as a kraken enabler? Its just you dont see lots of neb bs. Or gozanti assault carriers with slicers.

9 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Did people think they weren't gonna be relevant?

Of course im keen as anything for more info on these things. I want them to be usable! I just see that republic have two cheap, flexible and effective versions of the consular, wheras droids get.... these things at? 52 points? 

I mean, a hammerhead scout is 41 Points and in no way a respectable ship. Hammerhead torpedo at 36 at least has being cheap on its side.

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1 hour ago, Ophion said:

Maybe? That sounds interesting. Are they speed 3? Maybe as a kraken enabler? Its just you dont see lots of neb bs. Or gozanti assault carriers with slicers.

Of course im keen as anything for more info on these things. I want them to be usable! I just see that republic have two cheap, flexible and effective versions of the consular, wheras droids get.... these things at? 52 points? 

I mean, a hammerhead scout is 41 Points and in no way a respectable ship. Hammerhead torpedo at 36 at least has being cheap on its side.

 

Well you know as much about them as I do.  I'm interested to see how they perform and what they do.  I may be going out on a limb here but I don't want to condemn a ship without even knowing much about it.

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1 hour ago, Ophion said:

I mean, a hammerhead scout is 41 Points and in no way a respectable ship. 

ill backup @geek19 on this one all it takes is Slaved Turrets and Intensify firepower fleet command and you got a mean little ship. I only recently swapped out the hammerheads in my primary list for nebulons because brace and evade with Onagers out there is just too good. 

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Not sure I will be buying into a new faction that is effectively build around a slightly modified assault  frigate without gunnery team, needs to engine tec to get up to speed three and for the the carrier version does not have the option to cart around ECM.

What makes assault frigates work is that they are good solid carriers with gunnery teamed powered red batteries, protected by the three key defence tokens all driven by ECM. Your not getting that whole package with these new frigates.

i may wait to see what comes from the next couple of waves before I decide to invest or not.....

 

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15 minutes ago, player3691565 said:

Not sure I will be buying into a new faction that is effectively build around a slightly modified assault  frigate without gunnery team, needs to engine tec to get up to speed three and for the the carrier version does not have the option to cart around ECM.

What makes assault frigates work is that they are good solid carriers with gunnery teamed powered red batteries, protected by the three key defence tokens all driven by ECM. Your not getting that whole package with these new frigates.

i may wait to see what comes from the next couple of waves before I decide to invest or not.....

 

Im buying the one starter to start (as opposed to the 2 republics im getting). I think the muni is solid enough. Its obviously designed with gunnery team as a conspicuous absence. But its scaleable. On one hand you can just take linked turbo towers like the steel squadron guys were saying and it will be perfectly servicable. But that ion slot means you can put something  like heavy ions on it to amp it up if you can get kracken to work. I like wat tambor and the tactical droid too. The gold plated version (eng tech, lasers, ions, officer) pushes into star destroyer cost territory and thats probly over investing.

I think the hardcells will be essential for token support and activations for the next few waves but i hope their destroyer thing is a bit more flexible. The thing with neb/hammerhead style ships is they tend to shoot once then they are forced to advance and whatever they just shot at then clobbers them hard.

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32 minutes ago, Ophion said:

Im buying the one starter to start (as opposed to the 2 republics im getting). I think the muni is solid enough. Its obviously designed with gunnery team as a conspicuous absence. But its scaleable. On one hand you can just take linked turbo towers like the steel squadron guys were saying and it will be perfectly servicable. But that ion slot means you can put something  like heavy ions on it to amp it up if you can get kracken to work. I like wat tambor and the tactical droid too. The gold plated version (eng tech, lasers, ions, officer) pushes into star destroyer cost territory and thats probly over investing.

I think the hardcells will be essential for token support and activations for the next few waves but i hope their destroyer thing is a bit more flexible. The thing with neb/hammerhead style ships is they tend to shoot once then they are forced to advance and whatever they just shot at then clobbers them hard.

It is sort of stepping back in time to rebel wave one builds with a few new mechanics. The republic set on the other hand seems very interesting, if only it was not £200+ for a basic buy in ( a couple of cheaper better vic analogues supported by CR90 analogues looks fun).

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7 hours ago, player3691565 said:

Not sure I will be buying into a new faction that is effectively build around a slightly modified assault  frigate without gunnery team, needs to engine tec to get up to speed three and for the the carrier version does not have the option to cart around ECM.

What makes assault frigates work is that they are good solid carriers with gunnery teamed powered red batteries, protected by the three key defence tokens all driven by ECM. Your not getting that whole package with these new frigates.

i may wait to see what comes from the next couple of waves before I decide to invest or not.....

FFG chose not to give the Munificent the Weapons Team slot for a reason, and I suspect it was to deny it Gunnery Team, Flight Controllers, and Ruthless Strategists, and any Boarding Teams.

I don't think the Munificent needs Gunnery Team anyway because its unusually narrow front arc seems to be intended for double-arcing, and the Munificent has the maneuverability at Speed 2 to pull that off. I'd much rather use a ship that can attack the same enemy ship with two firing arcs than a ship that can use the same firing arc to attack two different enemy ships, if it spends 7 extra points. Players equip Gunnery Team on Star Destroyers and Mon Cal ships (* and the Starhawk) because they have firing arcs with 6+ dice so it's worth those 7 points to be able to use their most powerful firing arc twice per round, if possible. Whereas Gunnery Team is a bad investment on a AFMk2 and it would be for the Munificent too, even if it had a Weapons Team slot.

FFG didn't give the Acclamator-I a Defensive Retrofit slot either; it seems like they do that deliberately for carriers (after Wave 2) so they aren't too tough to kill.

I believe that the Separatists' Commanders and upgrade cards tilt the scale in the Munificent's favor compared to the AFMk2. Kraken provides a weaker TRC without having to spend a def. token, boosting the effectiveness of red dice; Wat Tambor boosts Repair commands; Tide of Progress and Battle Droid Reserves mitigate damage; and Sa Nalaor gives Evade at Speed 2.

I think a Munificent will be able to kill enemy ships faster and survive longer than an AFMk2 with Gunnery Team and ECM.

Finally, the Separatists can support and synergize their ships in ways that none of the other factions can match (as far as we know ATM), which is why I believe their ships are more effective and efficient than their base stats indicate.

Edited by Captain Corvid

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5 hours ago, Captain Corvid said:

FFG chose not to give the Munificent the Weapons Team slot for a reason, and I suspect it was to deny it Gunnery Team, Flight Controllers, and Ruthless Strategists, and any Boarding Teams.

I don't think the Munificent needs Gunnery Team anyway because its unusually narrow front arc seems to be intended for double-arcing, and the Munificent has the maneuverability at Speed 2 to pull that off. I'd much rather use a ship that can attack the same enemy ship with two firing arcs than a ship that can use the same firing arc to attack two different enemy ships, if it spends 7 extra points. Players equip Gunnery Team on Star Destroyers and Mon Cal ships (* and the Starhawk) because they have firing arcs with 6+ dice so it's worth those 7 points to be able to use their most powerful firing arc twice per round, if possible. Whereas Gunnery Team is a bad investment on a AFMk2 and it would be for the Munificent too, even if it had a Weapons Team slot.

FFG didn't give the Acclamator-I a Defensive Retrofit slot either; it seems like they do that deliberately for carriers (after Wave 2) so they aren't too tough to kill.

I believe that the Separatists' Commanders and upgrade cards tilt the scale in the Munificent's favor compared to the AFMk2. Kraken provides a weaker TRC without having to spend a def. token, boosting the effectiveness of red dice; Wat Tambor boosts Repair commands; Tide of Progress and Battle Droid Reserves mitigate damage; and Sa Nalaor gives Evade at Speed 2.

I think a Munificent will be able to kill enemy ships faster and survive longer than an AFMk2 with Gunnery Team and ECM.

Finally, the Separatists can support and synergize their ships in ways that none of the other factions can match (as far as we know ATM), which is why I believe their ships are more effective and efficient than their base stats indicate.

I’m not sure, a double arching combat monkey really needs to be one of three  things to my mind.

1) a fast small base, that can take one hit going in, deliver its own hurt and then leave.

2) the big bad boy tank that rolled in taking and delivering hits.

3) the fast flanker Red dice, fast and concentrates on not being in the wrong place.

 

the muni seems to be neither fish. It’s red dice, but a bit slow and really wants to double arc...now it’s nice for a fast flanker to double, but it tends to put you on a predictable course heading into trouble a few doubling at range is more problematic.  So it’s no  fast flanker. It’s not a fast closing punchy small base nor a slogging tank......it will be interesting to see how it can operate well against the mature factions. 
 

I think it’s a ship that  will need to sit in a complex list and that’s not what you get at the start of a new faction... so not saying it’s good or bad just saying I think it’s not somthing I will invest in yet.

I think it’s import to Remember that an assault frigate combo was its ability to be a good carrier and also act as an effective (ish) flanking red dice combat ship giving it a greater chance of over heating defence tokens. In this case as a combat carrier the assault frigate was actually very good, as a pure combat ship is was and is so so.

 

Edited by player3691565
Added bit

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1 hour ago, player3691565 said:

as a pure combat ship is was and is so so.

With Ackbar and the fish twins it is a pretty menacing combat ship. Add in slaved turrets and an Intel officer for more punch. 6 rerollable red dice is no joke. 

But agree without this it is not a very great pure combat ship.

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7 hours ago, player3691565 said:

I’m not sure, a double arching combat monkey really needs to be one of three  things to my mind.

1) a fast small base, that can take one hit going in, deliver its own hurt and then leave.

2) the big bad boy tank that rolled in taking and delivering hits.

3) the fast flanker Red dice, fast and concentrates on not being in the wrong place.

 

I believe the Munificent is intended to behave like it was depicted in TCW CG animated series: The ubiquitous Separatist warship, deployed in numbers, flying in line formation, lumbering straight at its target while outputting a lot of firepower. I think Munificents are designed to be deployed in a firing line, based on their firing arcs, attack pools, shields, and lack of speed. Also, as I previously mentioned, Kraken and Separatist upgrade cards enable ships to support each other and mitigate damage, so Munificents want to stick together.

When two or more Munificents fly together, I think they qualify as #2: The big bad boy tanks that roll in, taking and delivering hits.

And it makes sense that the Separatists need 2 ships to fulfill the heavy combat role that one Star Destroyer or Mon Cal cruiser traditionally performed.

7 hours ago, player3691565 said:

the muni seems to be neither fish. It’s red dice, but a bit slow and really wants to double arc...now it’s nice for a fast flanker to double, but it tends to put you on a predictable course heading into trouble a few doubling at range is more problematic.  So it’s no  fast flanker. It’s not a fast closing punchy small base nor a slogging tank......it will be interesting to see how it can operate well against the mature factions.

The Munificent's maneuvers will be fairly predictable, but if 2 or more Munificents are formed in a wide firing line and deployed opposite of the enemy's primary ship(s), it won't really matter. The "big" ships are going to engage in battle, one way or another. Even if a Speed 3 medium or large ship tried to speed past or around the Munificents, the frigates have the range, firing arcs, and maneuverability to counter that tactic.

Munificents aren't designed to be tricky, like a MC30 or Demolisher; they're designed to be omni-present and frustrating to deal with. I think that smart Separatist players will queue Repair commands for Rounds 4-6, which will allow Munificents to continually restore shields and repair damage, keeping them in the fight while they grind down enemy ships. The Munificent is a slogging "tank" as long as there at least 2 of them (equipped with the appropriate upgrades). That interdependency and strength-in-numbers philosophy is emblematic of the Separatist faction identity.

That's why you can't use them same ol' tactics, META, and "rules" from the GCW factions and apply them to the Separatists, because their faction is fundamentally different from the Rebels, Empire, and Republic.

7 hours ago, player3691565 said:

I think it’s import to Remember that an assault frigate combo was its ability to be a good carrier and also act as an effective (ish) flanking red dice combat ship giving it a greater chance of over heating defence tokens. In this case as a combat carrier the assault frigate was actually very good, as a pure combat ship is was and is so so.

The Separatists don't operate like other factions. A single Munificent doesn't need to be both a good carrier and a good combat ship, because a Munificent Comms Frigate can be paired with a Munificent Star Frigate, fulfill both roles, and support each other.

"Over-heating" defense tokens won't be as effective against the Separatists because their ships aren't dependent on having a second Brace, Redirect, or Evade to tank or cancel damage. The Separatists' resiliency stems from their ability to mitigate incoming damage and then repair damage more efficiently than the other factions. Then the Munificent gets to attack and inflict damage that will be more difficult for the enemy to deal with.

Also, the Munificent has a built-in Salvo def. token and an impressive 2 red dice rear arc, so it will be dishing out damage when it is attacked. Its potent Salvo arc will probably deter most enemy small ships from attacking it, especially at long range, which means the Munificent is less vulnerable to small ships, like Rebel players favour. That gives the Munificent a significant advantage over the AFMk2 as a pure combat ship.

Edited by Captain Corvid

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51 minutes ago, Captain Corvid said:

I believe the Munificent is intended to behave like it was depicted in TCW CG animated series: The ubiquitous Separatist warship, deployed in numbers, flying in line formation, lumbering straight at its target while outputting a lot of firepower. I think Munificents are designed to be deployed in a firing line, based on their firing arcs, attack pools, shields, and lack of speed. Also, as I previously mentioned, Kraken and Separatist upgrade cards enable ships to support each other and mitigate damage, so Munificents want to stick together.

When two or more Munificents fly together, I think they qualify as #2: The big bad boy tanks that roll in, taking and delivering hits.

And it makes sense that the Separatists need 2 ships to fulfill the heavy combat role that one Star Destroyer or Mon Cal cruiser traditionally performed.

The Munificent's maneuvers will be fairly predictable, but if 2 or more Munificents are formed in a wide firing line and deployed opposite of the enemy's primary ship(s), it won't really matter. The "big" ships are going to engage in battle, one way or another. Even if a Speed 3 medium or large ship tried to speed past or around the Munificents, the frigates have the range, firing arcs, and maneuverability to counter that tactic.

Munificents aren't designed to be tricky, like a MC30 or Demolisher; they're designed to be omni-present and frustrating to deal with. I think that smart Separatist players will queue Repair commands for Rounds 4-6, which will allow Munificents to continually restore shields and repair damage, keeping them in the fight while they grind down enemy ships. The Munificent is a slogging "tank" as long as there at least 2 of them (equipped with the appropriate upgrades). That interdependency and strength-in-numbers philosophy is emblematic of the Separatist faction identity.

That's why you can't use them same ol' tactics, META, and "rules" from the GCW factions and apply them to the Separatists, because their faction is fundamentally different from the Rebels, Empire, and Republic.

The Separatists don't operate like other factions. A single Munificent doesn't need to be both a good carrier and a good combat ship, because a Munificent Comms Frigate can be paired with a Munificent Star Frigate, fulfill both roles, and support each other.

"Over-heating" defense tokens won't be as effective against the Separatists because their ships aren't dependent on having a second Brace, Redirect, or Evade to tank or cancel damage. The Separatists' resiliency stems from their ability to mitigate incoming damage and then repair damage more efficiently than the other factions. Then the Munificent gets to attack and inflict damage that will be more difficult for the enemy to deal with.

Also, the Munificent has a built-in Salvo def. token and an impressive 2 red dice rear arc, so it will be dishing out damage when it is attacked. Its potent Salvo arc will probably deter most enemy small ships from attacking it, especially at long range, which means the Munificent is less vulnerable to small ships, like Rebel players favour. That gives the Munificent a significant advantage over the AFMk2 as a pure combat ship.

Would you buy two starters so you can fly 2 munificents?

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2 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I wasn’t sure how keen people who already have plenty of dice and tools would be to buy two starters.  

Well, TBH I wouldn't have ordered 2 of each core if there was the option to buy single ships from this wave.

But whatever. It's not like I've used a lot of money on Armada lately.

And with Covid, what else is there to spend money on?

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16 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I wasn’t sure how keen people who already have plenty of dice and tools would be to buy two starters.  

I'm only buying one starter (and one squadron pack), but I'm in no rush to have a "competitive" 400pt build. I'll pick up the Invisible Hand in Q1 and be content with my little fleet while I wait for the real goodies: the Lucrehulk and Malevolence (fingers crossed).

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1 hour ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Would you buy two starters so you can fly 2 munificents?

I've pre-ordered one of each Clone Wars expansion (except the dial pack) and have been waiting for these previews to decide if I will buy more.

I'd really like to know more about the Consular Corvette and Hardcell too, but based on what has been previewed so far, yes, I think I will pre-order a second Separatist Fleet Starter so I can fly two Munificents together.

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59 minutes ago, Captain Corvid said:

I've pre-ordered one of each Clone Wars expansion (except the dial pack) and have been waiting for these previews to decide if I will buy more.

I'd really like to know more about the Consular Corvette and Hardcell too, but based on what has been previewed so far, yes, I think I will pre-order a second Separatist Fleet Starter so I can fly two Munificents together.

Seems like 4 consulars and 4 hardcells will be too many once additional ships are released plus at some point there’s a chance they will release these ships with extra titles and upgrades. I’m very conflicted.

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23 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Seems like 4 consulars and 4 hardcells will be too many once additional ships are released plus at some point there’s a chance they will release these ships with extra titles and upgrades. I’m very conflicted.

I know. I doubt I'll ever use 4 Consulars or 4 Hardcells. (Previews for those small ships would certainly help!)

I'd prefer to buy individual ship expansions instead, if that was an option. Unfortunately, it's not... at this time anyway. 😞

Edited by Captain Corvid

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17 hours ago, Green Knight said:

Well, TBH I wouldn't have ordered 2 of each core if there was the option to buy single ships from this wave.

But whatever. It's not like I've used a lot of money on Armada lately.

And with Covid, what else is there to spend money on?

Beer

lots of nice food

tv subscription packages

games ( ohh so many games)

children's Christmas presents

A new Mac book pro

very top end electronic piano  

stupid amounts of silver coins for my collection ( so shiny so very shiny, and come the end of  society so useful)

bills

bills

bills

bills 

bills

bills

bills.............

 

ohh yes I forgot...............face masks, hand sanitizer and did I mention bills.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by player3691565
Cus

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On 11/19/2020 at 7:03 AM, player3691565 said:

FFG chose not to give the Munificent the Weapons Team slot for a reason, and I suspect it was to deny it Gunnery Team, Flight Controllers, and Ruthless Strategists, and any Boarding Teams.

Capitan Corvid qoute ^

I was thinking about no weapons team slot, but specifically no flight controllers. The CIS don't need them/ it would be broken. Want a 2blue 2 black 8 pt fighter? Not really. Activation of cis AI sqds is built-in flight controllers blue and black is roughly 1.5 avg 2bk blue is 2.5 which is a punch for a 8 pts

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6 minutes ago, Wolf_58 said:

Capitan Corvid qoute ^

I was thinking about no weapons team slot, but specifically no flight controllers. The CIS don't need them/ it would be broken. Want a 2blue 2 black 8 pt fighter? Not really. Activation of cis AI sqds is built-in flight controllers blue and black is roughly 1.5 avg 2bk blue is 2.5 which is a punch for a 8 pts

For now. 

It's hard to imagine at least one version of the two wave 10 ships not having good squadron value and weapons team.

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1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

For now. 

It's hard to imagine at least one version of the two wave 10 ships not having good squadron value and weapons team.

Yup! That will be interesting balance wise having such cheep punch for sqds. Wounder how the aces and screen will balance things out.

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