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gamblertuba

November Points Change Wishlist

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What are your priorities for each faction?  Doesn't have to be a well-reasoned argument, just your wish list.

  1. Rebel
    1. Go up: Wookiees and Dash (I couldn't really think of anything in Rebels that bothers me except Dash, he's bothered me for 24 years.)
    2. Go down: A-Wings
  2. Empire
    1. Go up: Sloane (see next response before you flame me)
    2. Go down: Most of the generics (not aggressors or defenders though)
  3. Scum
    1. Go up: Boba Fett
    2. Go down: Kihraxz
  4. Resistance
    1. Go up: Named A-Wings
    2. Go down: Named X-Wings
  5. First Order
    1. Go up: Malarus
    2. Go down: Edit- Generic Xi Shuttle
  6. Republic
    1. Go up: Jedi with 2+ force.  The extra force is just too cheap.
    2. Go down: Generic LAAT?
  7. Separatist
    1. Go up: All ships with config should increase in price and configs become free
    2. Go down: I feel like the HMP's are kind of expensive but I suspect I'm just bad at them?
  8. Generic Upgrades
    1. Go up: Dorsal Turret? That's really, really cheap.  Maybe knock a point off some of the turret carriers as compensation?
    2. Go down: ???

 

Edited by gamblertuba

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I think in general all cheap small-based beef ships needs to go up in price. Hopefully this allows large-based ships to be more competitive.

I don't know if this is do-able, but perhaps make Sloane's price vary with the ships that are in the squadron? If you want to put her on a list with 2 or 3 ships, fine. Keep her cheap. if you want to start going above 4 or more? Start raising it. To just be able to hand out double-stresses like candy and then get extra benefits from those stresses is too much imo.

 

Controversial take... With the rule changes to tractoring, I think it's time to bring ensnare down to make it viable... the stress-rotate option after tractoring still allows ensnare to remain strong, while not completely leaving ships that fall pray to it to be dead in the water.

I think the original scum Slave 1 title needs to go up. I THINK that should deal with some of the Boba Fett problems?

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I don't think I want to see buffs on anything but the Rebel A-Wing.

I don't want to see basic TIE Fighters go down to 21; I'd rather see TIE/fo and Scyks go up to 26.  I'd rather see all average-to-above-average stuff get nerfed than below-average get buffed this time around.

44 minutes ago, player655164 said:

also, has it been confirmed that there is going to be a november point change? or is this sheer speculation?

There's new ships coming, so there will be new PDFs and new points for some stuff at least.  What else might happen is who knows.

Original Plan was to switch away from a Winter/Summer schedule to a Fall/Spring one.

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Bring down generic N1's. 

Agree with Imp generics, down in points. 

CIS, everything droid up. Discord missiles, energy cell charges. 

Scum, generics down. 

Edited by Dwing

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3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:
    1. Generic Upgrades
      1. Go up: Dorsal Turret? That's really, really cheap.  Maybe knock a point off some of the turret carriers as compensation?
      2. Go down: ???

Go down: Any upgrade that requires another upgrade to be functional (i.e.  saturation salvo, trajectory simulator, some instances of veteran turret gunner, etc) and any upgrade that forces you to take damage to use it (Static discharge vanes)

Edited by Asaverino1019
Additional thought

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1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

Jedi go up more? Are you serious?

They didn’t make any cut at all for Coruscant. They’re already expensive enough as it is.

Otherwise I feel like your list is a safe list to hope for.

I could be wrong on the Jedi but right now I think the meta has been profoundly unhelpful in determining how strong the Jedi will be going forward.

39 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Hang on, are we still mad about Dash? I thought he was still priced out of being oppressive but then again I haven't played against him recently (or played at all, really).

My hatred for Dash is totally unjustified and irrational.  Has very little to do with his second edition pricing and performance.

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3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Jedi go up more? Are you serious?

They didn’t make any cut at all for Coruscant. They’re already expensive enough as it is.

Otherwise I feel like your list is a safe list to hope for.

At this point I'm convinced you could price 7B Ani at 201 points and people would still tell you that he is underpriced

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19 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

How about no! 

Lu'lo has already been priced out at 43. They are competitive at what they are, ships are aloud to be good.

If you think Zizi, Merle, and Suralinda are priced correctly, you and I are playing different games.

Lu'lo would find plenty of success if there weren't clearly undercosted A-Wing alternatives.

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I agree mostly with your suggestions. I don’t think Jedi need to go up, regen and 7b have been priced out of being competitive. I don’t think Boba should go up, the problem with boba is a mix of Slave 1 and how initiative works. At the list building stage the Scum player can build a list around 190 and know only Int 6’s will out ace Boba, that’s an issue in my opinion. I don’t like the static initiative, but it’s what we have to work with. 

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5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd rather see all average-to-above-average stuff get nerfed than below-average get buffed this time around.

Agreed. A lot of below average stuff are at pretty tight points thresholds already and haven't budge. The T-65 for example really can't go down anymore without introducing a very silly 5 ship beef list. The problem with the meta really isn't 'some ships are underpreforming' anymore, its far more about how certain ships (especially certain types of ships) are so dominant that other things can't compete without reaching a breakpoint that dramatically rockets up their value. A 39 point X-wing is far stronger than a 40 point X-wing, especially in hyperspace. At this point, its probably more critical to look at meta bullies and why they are meta bullies than to try to let them hold at their price because they are healthy relative to each other and buff other stuff up. Nerfs are never fun, but right now X-wing has a huge 'gatekeeper of the week' effect going on that indicates buffs aren't going to cut it.

4 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

This is a great summary of the issue. X-wing currently is struggling with 'the generic swarm problem' because the nature of a swarm is to reduce the game to a very mathy state where the volume of fire makes their output super consistent, and their game plan denies a lot of space to do subtle, nuanced things to try to gain an advantage. Why bother doing anything else when you can just blast away with 16 dice a turn defended by 24 greens? The raw power of things that are capable of using more nuanced mechanics past that (like Boba) tend to be toxic in their own right.

It is the exact same problem5e 40k had where this was the only thing that mattered and resulted in the large majority of game elements you could take being worthless. It was called killhammer, and it was awful, and we are sorta in a 'killwing' meta. And a big reason for that is swarms, which also block off a lot of avenues to try to fix 'Killwing' like an objective based mode, because objective based modes would reward swarms way too much even if they hurt other NPE ships like 'Points fort Boba.' So a global nerf to generic swarms and pushing their power into more nuanced effects that make the list something more than 'create a firing line without any real weaknesses to exploit,' or forcing nuanced swarms to instead try to distrupt enemy game plans with their increased board presence and losing 'by default' unless they can do so, is probably inevitable. Its kinda wild that this game's 'zoo' lists beat 'combo' lists in general even if they just fly straight into the combo.

Edited by dezzmont

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1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

If you think Zizi, Merle, and Suralinda are priced correctly, you and I are playing different games.

Lu'lo would find plenty of success if there weren't clearly undercosted A-Wing alternatives.

Lu'lo stopped being played as soon as it was price hiked and Zizi wasn't even released.

The Reistance as a faction struggles with any competitive list at the moment, save Reywing. 5A's might be making cuts but they're falling short in knockouts. The A-wing is the only ship that is pulling its weight in the faction.

However in comparisons, Nantex named pilots are floating at the same price range and they are significantly better ships and everyone is arguing the generic I3 should be cheaper than the generic I3 RZ-2.

Tie-SF's are arguably similar with 2 more HP and are only a few points more.

I'll give you Merl and Suralinda are priced weirdly. If Zizi goes up Lu'lo would have to some down. Named Ace T-70's would have to come down significantly to compensate any other price hike. 

Poe needs bringing down regardless.

Edited by Tyhar7

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My own Google docs points change wish list that I have been working on:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/182HkVEoOdiSGmmQQrfjD-6jIuYTcCb4sgpKUmRKPcBg/edit?usp=sharing

TL;DR (warning - contains hot takes): 

Separatists
- Feethan Ottraw Autopilot gets a crew slot
- All HMPs get double cannon slots, all HMP Crew slots taken away;
- Geonosian prototype gets Sensor slot, Onderon Oppressor and DGS-286 down
- Repulsorlift Stabilizers at 1 pt, same as all Sep configs.
- Techno Union Bomber at 26, Baktoid Prototype and DBS-32C down
- Gorgol and Berwer Kret down. Ensnare at I2: 17 / I3: 17 / I4: 17 / I5: 20 / I6: 25
- Sith Infiltrator loses Torp slot. Maul and Dooku down
- DFS-311 and DFS-081 down
- K2-B4, TV-94 and Gravidic Deflection at 4
- Oh, and Dank Probe Droids are Large/Medium base only now

Republic
- ARC Oddball and Jag down
- Goji and Red Bomber at 30. Named Y-wings down except Broadside
- Aethersprite Ani, Saesee and Ahsoka down. Delta-7B and CLT stay put
- All LAAT pilots down 1 except Warthog
- All Naboo pilots down except Ani and Padme
- Torrent Oddball at 30, Kickback and Axe also down
- R2-C4 and R4-P44 at 3. R2-A6 at I1: 3 / I2: 4 / I3: 5 / I4: 6 / I5: 7 / I6: 8

Empire
- Baron of the Empire at 29
- All TIE Advanced down except Vader and Tempest
- Reaper gets Cannon and Sensor slot
- TIE Aggressor gets Sensor slot. No pilot changes
- Redline and Deathrain get Talents
- All TIE Defender pilots down except I1 Delta Sq. pilot
- Soontir at 55, Saber & Turr at 35 & 37
- All TIE Fighter pilots down except Wampa, Gideon, Iden and Black Sq. Ace
- Inferno Squadron TIE Pilots get second Mod slot
- All TIE Bomber pilots down except Scimitar
- Pure Sabacc, Countdown and Vagabond down, generics are fine
- Decimator gets Missile slot
- Sloane at 11. Palp at 10. Tarkin, Tua, Kallus, and Ciena down

Rebels
- Braylan, Ten, and Gina at 51, 49 and 46. Stabilized Config at 1 pt.
- Rebel ARC pilots down except Norra
- Attack Shuttle gets Astromech slot
- Auzituck gets Gunner slot; Kashyyyk Defender at 43, Lowhhrick at 47
- All Y-wing pilots down except Grey Sq. Bomber
- K-Wing gets Sensor and 2nd Mod slot. Warden, Miranda, Esege at 40, 41, 42. Aces get Talents.
- Named E-wings down. Generics are fine
- YT-1300 gets Sensor slot. Chewie down to 68
- All A-wing pilots down except Jake.
- All T-65 X-Wing pilots down except Wedge and generics. Biggs gets a Talent
- Rebel TIE pilots Down. Rex gets a Talent
- All Named U-Wings down except Cassian and Heff
- Rebel Z-95 Cracken down
- R2-D2 and R5-D6 same cost as generics. Han Gunner down
- Falcon and Crow Titles down
- K-2SO, Cassian, and Hera crew down. Selfless at 1 pt

Scum & Villainy
- IG-88 A, B, C, D at 63, 62, 61, 60; IG-2000 at 2 pts
- YT-1300 gets Sensor slot. Lando Falcon Title at 2 pts
- All Fang pilots down except generics; Fenn Rau at 66 for those interested
- All named Firespray pilots down Except Boba and Kohska. Andrasda and Marauder Titles down
- No crew slot for Boba
- All named Khiraxz pilots down except Cartel Marauder
- Lancer-class craft gets Sensor slot. All pilots down, Shadow Caster at 2 pts
- Kimogila gets Sensor and Cannon slot. Named pilots down
- M3-A gets Illicit slot. Cartel Spacer at 26, all other M3-A pilots down
- MG TIE gets Illicit slot. All pilots except Seevor down
- Scurrg gets Missile and Illicit slot. Havok at 0 pts
- StarViper gets Illicit slot. Named pilots down except Guri
- YV-666 gets 2nd Illicit slot. Named pilots down. Hound's Tooth at 0 pts
- All named Scum Z-95 pilots down
- Boba, Cad, Chewie, Ketsu, Latts, Tobias, Jabba crew down. Bossk and BT-1 gunner down

First Order
- Vonreg at 54, Ember at 44
- FO TIE Epsilon Cadet / Zeta Sq. pilot generics at 26 / 27
- FO TIE named pilots down except Scorch, Rivas, and Null
- TIE SF Zeta Survivor at 33, Backdraft and Phasma down
- SJE up to 49 pts. All other pilots (named & generic) down except for Kylo
- Xi Terex and FO Courier at 37 / 36; Malarus and Hask stay where they are
- I genuinely have no idea what to do about the Upsilon
- Terex crew at 8. Pyre, Kylo, Snoke, Malarus crew down
- Sensor Buoy Suite at 2 pts, Deuterium Power Cells at 8 pts

Resistance
- Colossus Station Mechanic up at 27, Jerek and R1-J5 down. Kaz is fine
- I genuinely have no idea what to do about the StarFortress
- All Resistance Transport pilots down except for Cova
- Transport Pod Rose up, BB-8 and Vi Morandi down. Finn is fine
- RZ-2: Zizi at 45, Lulo at 42, Tallie/Greer at 37, I3 and I1 generics at 35 and 33. Merl at 35
- YT-1300 gets Sensor slot. Rey back up to 70. Han and Chewie down.
- T-70: Ace Poe at 65, Cmdr Poe at 62. All named pilots down except Nien, Jess, Bastian, and Nimi
- Underslung Blaster Cannon at 2; Han, PZ-4CO crew down; Holdo at 10; Ferrosphere Paint at 3

Upgrades
- R5 Astro at Ag0: 2 / Ag1: 3 / Ag2: 4 / Ag3: 5
- HLC and Tractor down 1, Autoblasters at 4
- Gonk at 8, Tac Officer at 4
- Brilliant Evasion and Heightened Perception at 2, Precog Reflexes down
- Agile/Suppressive Gunner for Sml: 6 / Med: 5 / Lrg: 4 / Hge: 4
- VTG for Sml: 10 / Med: 8 / Lrg: 6 / Hge: 4
- Inertial Dampeners is I0: 1 (this used to be free)
- Mult-Missile pods at 5
- Angled Deflectors at Ag0: 5 / Ag1: 4 / Ag2: 3 / Ag3: 2
- Ablative Plating at 4; Static Discharge Vanes at 3
- Cluster Mines at 6, Bomblet gen. / Ion bombs at 4, Concussion Bombs at 5; Electro-Proton at 10
- Advanced Sensors at Ag0: 6 / Ag1: 6 / Ag2: 8 / Ag3: 10
- Passive Sensors at I3 is 4 pts
- Trajectory Simulator: Sml: 6 / Med: 5 Lrg: 4
- Squad Leader at I0: 2 / I1: 3 / I2: 4 / I3: 5 / I4: 6 / I5: 7 / I6: 8
- Snap Shot down 1 across base size, Saturation Salvo at 2 pts
- Juke at 6 pts, Ion Limiter Override and Backwards Tailslide at 1 pt
- Primed Thrusters down 1 across the board; Targeting Synchronizer at 2; Pattern Analyzer at 6

Sorry for the longer post; hope to start some interesting conversations

Edited by ImperialAce95

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5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I'm willing to admit that Jedi might be fine.  But Boba Fett?  Boba Fett needs a new version like Poe and Temmin, then price the current version out of the game. Boba is a problem.

I think you and I are playing different games, sounds like you have Boba PTSD. Boba is 86 base already....

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49 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

I think you and I are playing different games, sounds like you have Boba PTSD

I am with Gambler in that any reality where Boba is viable to fly with another strong wingman is not a reality I want to live in. He can be not-meta and still be a problem because Boba hitting the table with another defensive units makes casual lists cry.

He just is too much of a gatekeeper unit, and an alternative version of Boba which doesn't have a ton of defensive power feels necessary to allow this super iconic character to exist and not be a complete drag for Jimmy Core+1 to play against. He is the worst kind of oppressive in that someone can accidently stumble into making a list that is way more intense than anyone at a local scene can handle.

Edited by dezzmont

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17 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Doesn't have to be a well-reasoned argument, just your wish list.

Just a reminder to everyone turning this into a debate. This is just everyone's fun personal list. There are no wrong answers.

 

I want Midnight down to 34 points, General Hux down to 2, generic Xi at 37, and most importantly, original Snap at 50.

Oh, and all named Rz2s up 2pts.

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Scummy wishlist:

  • IG88s down more. Give me some room.
  • Kimogilas down, Kihraxz down. All of them, even the generics. I don't think 5x Cartel Executioner would even be that oppressive, sure it's 45 hp, but agi 1, and crit sensitive, they tend to melt. Just like 5 X-wings didn't break the game, I don't think 5 Kimogilas would, no more than 5 TIE/rb do. Also they're awkward to fly in numbers. Make them an even 40.
  • M3-A down except for spacers(fine at 25), especially the Tansarii, as the upgrade from spacer isn't really worth the 4 points(the normal interval for this is 2 for most other ships), though I do love the AB+MMS swarm thing, it's still a bit overpriced.
  • I4 StarVipers down about 2-3 points.
  • Lancer down. Would love a tech slot, and/or gunner.
  • YV-666 down, especially named pilots.
  • Named MG TIEs and Z-95s down, a lot. Like 3 points, Proach and N'dru down 4. Even Seevor could go down 1. I'd even lower the Z-95 generics more, 1 pt, MG TIE generics are fine.
  • Joy Rekoff and Kad Solus down 4 points each.
  • Y-wings down 2 points? Seems crazy that we're paying more for ours than Republic for theirs.
  • Scum Falcon could do with a mixup that's not just points changes. I'd really like to see something like a cannon or tech slot. Second illicit slot.
  • Firesprays that aren't Boba down. Especially Kath and Krassix, they rarely see play.
  • More illicit slots. No scum ship should be without one.
  • In fact most of ImperialAce95's points are good. Definitely agree on Havok 0 pts, sidegrade title that only affects slots shouldn't cost anything.

Off faction:

  • Throw rebel beef a bone, most factions can do rebel beef better than the rebels can at this point. Also A-wing generics down 2.
  • Resistance A-wings up a little bit, and X-wings down by about the same. 1 point for generics, 2 for named? Maybe lower Non-rey falcons, couches, and the starfortresses slightly?(except generic couch). Rey up a little.
  • I still want to see Nantex generics up 1 more. Ensnare can come down a little. Lower cost for the Onderon and Geonosan.
  • Empire, uhm, Baron up 1, 5th Brother up 1. Sloane up 2. Non-vader x1 down.
  • FO... oopsilon down? Phasma down, Malarus up, Terex crew up.
  • Republic... Wolfpack up to double, Ahsoka crew down? Faction mostly seems fine.
Edited by Cerebrawl

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