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Thenger

Two Weapon Weilder (Melee vs. Ranged)

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Okay I have a quick question and maybe I am missing something here.

Ranged - Two Weapon Weilder = Ambidextrous (-10) /  Gunsliger (-10).  Okay so as a ranged with these three talents you are able to reduce the penality to 0.  Which is amazing and great.

Melee - Two Weapon Weilder = Ambidextrous (-10).  Okay so this leaves all attacks while using Two Weapon Weilder at -10.  Is there a talent I am missing, or does melee always get the -10 when using a second weapon?

I just want to make sure since ranged have the correct number of talents to not have any penalities and yet the melee does not.  Thank you.

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Indeed.

I just thought I'd mention, however, that with TWW(melee) and Lightning Attack, you're looking at 4 melee attacks (3 / 1) at "only" a -10 penalty, as opposed to 2 attacks which may or may not be autofiring, and will likely struggle to do as much damage or penetration as a good chainsword.

Or 3 attacks with a badass weapon, and a +10 parry via a sword in the offhand. You don't even need to attack with it; just keep it around offhand to parry. You can do this without TWW though, so it's kind of a moot point.

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The Hobo Hunter said:

Or 3 attacks with a badass weapon, and a +10 parry via a sword in the offhand. You don't even need to attack with it; just keep it around offhand to parry. You can do this without TWW though, so it's kind of a moot point.

That is a great point, but how do you get the +10 parry with the other weapon?  Sorry just woke up and don't have a chance to look into the book as of yet.

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 That is a great point, but how do you get the +10 parry with the other weapon? Sorry just woke up and don't have a chance to look into the book as of yet.

Swords are Balanced, so they get +10 to all parries.

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I had this same "problem" come up and did some math.

If you have ambidextrous and two weapon wielder and swift/lightning with 2 weapons your chance to miss with every attack is bigger than if you swift/lightning attack with just one weapon if your weaponskill is "low" but you're expected damage value is bigger.

However at about weaponskill 45-50 (before you aply the  -10 from attacking with two weapons ) the difference in this begins to decrease rapidly while still having a higher expected damage value. 

So at higher weaponskill the -10 is balanced because of the extra attack and eventually will hit more than swift/lightning attack with one weapon.

 

Hope my numbercrunching has helped :D

 

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Cifer said:

 That is a great point, but how do you get the +10 parry with the other weapon? Sorry just woke up and don't have a chance to look into the book as of yet.

Swords are Balanced, so they get +10 to all parries.

Wow.... yeah I was tired this morning and I can't belive I missed that.  Thanks.

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Pretty much. Since a parry is not considered an attack, you can use that arm to parry without the -20 "offhand" penalty. So grab something defensive and hold it in the other hand, and lay about with your main weapon instead. Of course, a good chain/powersword and TWW means you can just as easily attack with it as parry, rather than a shield or sigilite.

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I've gone for the mighty eviscerator+naval shield combo (tech-priest of course) hopefully adding a shotgun pistol or something... maybe sometime I will get my hands on an omnissian axe to dual wield it but atm I lack the agility anyway

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Except you won't be able to use that Eviscerator then.  An Eviscerator is a 2-handed weapon.  If you have a Naval Shield on, you won't have two free hands.  Tech Priest...extra limbs...OK...if you're playing Munchkin...but by the rules your mechadendrites won't be able to support either of these because they are too heavy.  This leaves you with 2 arms and needing three.

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 The Omnissian war axe is also a two-handed weapon, so dual wielding it with anything is out.

According to the RAW, though, he could attach the shield to one of his mechadendrites, provided he took Machinator Array. Then he'd just look silly, though.

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The Boy Named Crow said:

 The Omnissian war axe is also a two-handed weapon, so dual wielding it with anything is out.

According to the RAW, though, he could attach the shield to one of his mechadendrites, provided he took Machinator Array. Then he'd just look silly, though.

Even by RAW, no he couldn't.  Because it says he "may mount a single Pistol weapon or one-handed Melee weapon rather than the usual compact laser design".

The shield is neither a melee weapon nor a pistol so could not be mounted on a mechadendrite.  Can the shield be used as a melee weapon?  Yes.  But by the quality "Defensive" it is not a melee weapon.

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 I don't see anything in the description of the defensive quality that precludes it being a weapon. In fact, the description refers to something possessing it as a "defensive weapon". The naval shield is also listed in a table explicitly stated as containing melee weapons, as are all the other shields I can find.

I might be missing something, but I think a shield still counts.

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The Boy Named Crow said:

 The Omnissian war axe is also a two-handed weapon, so dual wielding it with anything is out.

According to the RAW, though, he could attach the shield to one of his mechadendrites, provided he took Machinator Array. Then he'd just look silly, though.

Why bother with that ?

The utility mechedendrite comes with a defensive knife, so if you have one of them then you should use the gun mechedendrite for an attack weapon.

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The Boy Named Crow said:

 I don't see anything in the description of the defensive quality that precludes it being a weapon. In fact, the description refers to something possessing it as a "defensive weapon". The naval shield is also listed in a table explicitly stated as containing melee weapons, as are all the other shields I can find.

I might be missing something, but I think a shield still counts.

Similarly why a table can be used as a weapon but that still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  A shield is a shield.  It is can be used as a melee weapon just as a table.  Doesn't mean it is a melee weapon.  The same would apply for a Breacher.  It is being used as a weapon, even have stats for it, but it isn't a melee weapon.  I also don't know any other 1-handed melee weapon that weighs 9kg.

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Redeucer said:

The Boy Named Crow said:

 

 I don't see anything in the description of the defensive quality that precludes it being a weapon. In fact, the description refers to something possessing it as a "defensive weapon". The naval shield is also listed in a table explicitly stated as containing melee weapons, as are all the other shields I can find.

I might be missing something, but I think a shield still counts.

 

 

Similarly why a table can be used as a weapon but that still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  A shield is a shield.  It is can be used as a melee weapon just as a table.  Doesn't mean it is a melee weapon.  The same would apply for a Breacher.  It is being used as a weapon, even have stats for it, but it isn't a melee weapon.  I also don't know any other 1-handed melee weapon that weighs 9kg.

 

"Defensive weapon" includes the word weapon, meaning it is a type of weapon. So I don't see where you are getting the idea that a shield isn't a weapon.

A shields primary purpose is combat, while the table and breacher were designed for other things.

 

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

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Thenger said:

Ranged - Two Weapon Weilder = Ambidextrous (-10) /  Gunsliger (-10).  Okay so as a ranged with these three talents you are able to reduce the penality to 0.  Which is amazing and great.

Also, gunslinger only applies to pistols and not other weapons that can be fired one handed.

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Bilateralrope said:

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

A chain axe is also two-handed, so it isn't applicable so much.

 

Redeucer: 

So, are you saying that a shield doesn't fall under the RAW definition of a melee weapon? Or a practical definition of one?

 

In terms of RAW, I have to disagree. The shield is, in my opinion, quite clearly a melee weapon. They have a list of melee weapons, and it's there, not with gear, or armor. The designers made a conscious choice to put it there.

 

Practically, I can agree with you. A shield is a defensive item. Sure, people hit each other with them, but that's not what the object was designed for. However, if we look at it from that angle, it also raises the question of that exactly about the mechadendrite makes it suitable for mounting a sword or a knife and not, I don't know, a teapot. (or whatever)

 

SIDE NOTE:

Whether it is allowed by the RAW or not, I recognize that it is not necessarily in line with the spirit of the rules.

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The Boy Named Crow said:

Bilateralrope said:

 

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

 

 

A chain axe is also two-handed, so it isn't applicable so much.

 

Redeucer: 

So, are you saying that a shield doesn't fall under the RAW definition of a melee weapon? Or a practical definition of one?

 

In terms of RAW, I have to disagree. The shield is, in my opinion, quite clearly a melee weapon. They have a list of melee weapons, and it's there, not with gear, or armor. The designers made a conscious choice to put it there.

 

Practically, I can agree with you. A shield is a defensive item. Sure, people hit each other with them, but that's not what the object was designed for. However, if we look at it from that angle, it also raises the question of that exactly about the mechadendrite makes it suitable for mounting a sword or a knife and not, I don't know, a teapot. (or whatever)

 

SIDE NOTE:

Whether it is allowed by the RAW or not, I recognize that it is not necessarily in line with the spirit of the rules.

Yup.  What I'm saying is that it isn't a melee weapon.  Please note that the wording specifically says a "Pistol" or one hand "Melee" weapon.   A table can be used as a melee weapon.  They have stats for it as well (called an improvised weapon).  Still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  Same with the horse shoe, iron pipe, etc.  They are improvised melee weapons by RAW.  Still wouldn't let one be attached to a mechadendrite.  A shield being used as a melee weapon is still nothing more than an improvised melee weapon.  They give stats for it sure, but it is not a melee weapon.  It is a shield.  A shield requires more than just a hand to hold it.  It requires an entire arm.

Chain Ax...hmmm...  I missed that one.  That's a lot of weight.  I would house rule that one as a "no" for a mechadendrite because of the weight.

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Redeucer said:

 

 

 Please note that the wording specifically says a "Pistol" or one hand "Melee" weapon.   A table can be used as a melee weapon.  They have stats for it as well (called an improvised weapon).  Still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  Same with the horse shoe, iron pipe, etc.  They are improvised melee weapons by RAW.  Still wouldn't let one be attached to a mechadendrite.  A shield being used as a melee weapon is still nothing more than an improvised melee weapon.  They give stats for it sure, but it is not a melee weapon.  It is a shield.  A shield requires more than just a hand to hold it.  It requires an entire arm.

Why, exactly, wouldn't you allow an iron pipe? Isn't that mostly what a mechadendrite is? 

Jokes aside, I'm not sure what your justification is for disallowing it. If you approach it from a RAW standpoint, the shield is a weapon, and can be put on. If you approach it from a practical standpoint, the "weapon" stipulation may as well be ignored, because there's no reason that a mechadendrite could hold a chainsword and not a 6kg dumbbell. What I think is happening is you're using a practical definition of a weapon to restrict a simulated restriction based in the rules. 

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The Boy Named Crow said:

Bilateralrope said:

 

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

 

 

A chain axe is also two-handed, so it isn't applicable so much.

 

 

Um, where does it say that a chain axe is a two handed weapon ?

The melee weapon table in the DH core rulebook doesn't list it as two handed and the errata doesn't mention them.

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Redeucer said:

The Boy Named Crow said:

 

Bilateralrope said:

 

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

 

 

A chain axe is also two-handed, so it isn't applicable so much.

 

Redeucer: 

So, are you saying that a shield doesn't fall under the RAW definition of a melee weapon? Or a practical definition of one?

 

In terms of RAW, I have to disagree. The shield is, in my opinion, quite clearly a melee weapon. They have a list of melee weapons, and it's there, not with gear, or armor. The designers made a conscious choice to put it there.

 

Practically, I can agree with you. A shield is a defensive item. Sure, people hit each other with them, but that's not what the object was designed for. However, if we look at it from that angle, it also raises the question of that exactly about the mechadendrite makes it suitable for mounting a sword or a knife and not, I don't know, a teapot. (or whatever)

 

SIDE NOTE:

Whether it is allowed by the RAW or not, I recognize that it is not necessarily in line with the spirit of the rules.

 

 

Yup.  What I'm saying is that it isn't a melee weapon.  Please note that the wording specifically says a "Pistol" or one hand "Melee" weapon.   A table can be used as a melee weapon.  They have stats for it as well (called an improvised weapon).  Still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  Same with the horse shoe, iron pipe, etc.  They are improvised melee weapons by RAW.  Still wouldn't let one be attached to a mechadendrite.  A shield being used as a melee weapon is still nothing more than an improvised melee weapon.  They give stats for it sure, but it is not a melee weapon.  It is a shield.  A shield requires more than just a hand to hold it.  It requires an entire arm.

Chain Ax...hmmm...  I missed that one.  That's a lot of weight.  I would house rule that one as a "no" for a mechadendrite because of the weight.

Redeucer said:

The Boy Named Crow said:

 

Bilateralrope said:

 

As for the weight issue, a chain axe weighs 13kg, so weight isn't a good way to distinguish weapons from not-weapons.

 

 

A chain axe is also two-handed, so it isn't applicable so much.

 

Redeucer: 

So, are you saying that a shield doesn't fall under the RAW definition of a melee weapon? Or a practical definition of one?

 

In terms of RAW, I have to disagree. The shield is, in my opinion, quite clearly a melee weapon. They have a list of melee weapons, and it's there, not with gear, or armor. The designers made a conscious choice to put it there.

 

Practically, I can agree with you. A shield is a defensive item. Sure, people hit each other with them, but that's not what the object was designed for. However, if we look at it from that angle, it also raises the question of that exactly about the mechadendrite makes it suitable for mounting a sword or a knife and not, I don't know, a teapot. (or whatever)

 

SIDE NOTE:

Whether it is allowed by the RAW or not, I recognize that it is not necessarily in line with the spirit of the rules.

 

 

Yup.  What I'm saying is that it isn't a melee weapon.  Please note that the wording specifically says a "Pistol" or one hand "Melee" weapon.   A table can be used as a melee weapon.  They have stats for it as well (called an improvised weapon).  Still doesn't make it a melee weapon.  Same with the horse shoe, iron pipe, etc.  They are improvised melee weapons by RAW.  Still wouldn't let one be attached to a mechadendrite.  A shield being used as a melee weapon is still nothing more than an improvised melee weapon.  They give stats for it sure, but it is not a melee weapon.  It is a shield.  A shield requires more than just a hand to hold it.  It requires an entire arm.

Chain Ax...hmmm...  I missed that one.  That's a lot of weight.  I would house rule that one as a "no" for a mechadendrite because of the weight.

 

Why do you think that a mechadendrite has less lifting capacity than a fleshy arm ?

 

As for the shield needing a whole arm, a ballistic mechedendrite is a 2 meter limb, much longer than a flesh arm.

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