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Robbr

Embrace progress! And stop acting like old nags...

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I actually heard about Descent for the fist time two months ago.  Since  corona, my family and I got into boardgaming.  I saw a copy of Descent at the local gameshop and at home I immediately searched the internet.  A couple of weeks later I learned about Legends oft the Dark.  In my opinion, with my fresh point of view, I must say this game looks overwhelmingly awesome to me.  What really shocked me though, was the amount of negativity about it on all kinds of forums.  To me, it all sounds a little bit like the way my mom reacted when I was 16 years old and started playing my metal and punk tapes really loud.  I get that, when you like a game realy much, you want the publisher to keep creating content.  But for new potential buyers, like me, it is only normal that new games are going to be developed.  I really hope the best for this NEW game (whitch is not the 3rd edition to your beloved Descent 2nd).  FFG is a company.  Companies have to make money in order to stay a company.  With money the make new things.  With money they improve and support older products as well.  So I guess it would be a great idea to positively stimulate new products that create new revenue, and maybe lead to improvement and support for older products.  For me, ...  I've already preordered my copy.  I paid 140 euro.  That's about 165 dollars.  Most big kickstarter games are more expensive.  So what's the fuzz?

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The problem is only one: when you're used to the old stuff and see a thing like this game (artwork being the most important point, imo). And then you were on high hopes to see something better, you see the 'new content' is actually worse. All the hype for this, was a cold bath for most of the people here.

I agree with your point of view about company, but nevermind the support for old stuff part.

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Progress just for the sake of progress is never good. They had an amazing story, theme and game engine at their disposal and decided to literally threw it all away to make something bloated and over priced with what unfortunately can only be seen as distorted horrible game art compared to the standard.

There was a natural progression here, from Descent 1 to 2 then Imperial Assault. The next step building on all of that would have been fantastic. Instead we got this mess.

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To make money a company should produce good products. You think that this is a good product, so you will invest a lot of money in it and hope that other people will think and do the same.

Future will say if you are right 🙂

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What an odd thread.  It's like someone walking into a Minnesota bar right after Vikings player Gary Anderson shanked the game winning field goal in the 1998 NFC championship, and asking "so what's the fuzz"?  🤨

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On 11/6/2020 at 2:28 PM, Robbr said:

I actually heard about Descent for the fist time two months ago.

That probably explains your opinion more than the rest of your post. The vast majority of people talking about this game come from a background having played Descent 1st and/or 2nd editions.  You don't have any basis for comparison because you haven't played the previous Descent(s), and thus the 'fuzz' over Legends of the Dark doesnt make sense to you. Honestly, you are probably their target audience now.

 

Edited by LiquidLogic

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On 11/6/2020 at 2:28 PM, Robbr said:

I actually heard about Descent for the fist time two months ago.  Since  corona, my family and I got into boardgaming.  I saw a copy of Descent at the local gameshop and at home I immediately searched the internet.  A couple of weeks later I learned about Legends oft the Dark.  In my opinion, with my fresh point of view, I must say this game looks overwhelmingly awesome to me.  What really shocked me though, was the amount of negativity about it on all kinds of forums.  To me, it all sounds a little bit like the way my mom reacted when I was 16 years old and started playing my metal and punk tapes really loud.  I get that, when you like a game realy much, you want the publisher to keep creating content.  But for new potential buyers, like me, it is only normal that new games are going to be developed.  I really hope the best for this NEW game (whitch is not the 3rd edition to your beloved Descent 2nd).  FFG is a company.  Companies have to make money in order to stay a company.  With money the make new things.  With money they improve and support older products as well.  So I guess it would be a great idea to positively stimulate new products that create new revenue, and maybe lead to improvement and support for older products.  For me, ...  I've already preordered my copy.  I paid 140 euro.  That's about 165 dollars.  Most big kickstarter games are more expensive.  So what's the fuzz?

Most similarly priced Kickstarter boardgames offer far more content as a rule. As a veteran of both previous editions of descent , though i played the second edition far more than the first, i can tell you that the proposed iteration and its asking price comes as a serious disappointment. Even when they took mansions of madness in the second edition and turned it into a full coop app driven experience, they at least had the good sense to make as much of the first edition material as they could usable in the second. we dont even that that little smidgen here  

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2 hours ago, LudVanB said:

Most similarly priced Kickstarter boardgames offer far more content as a rule. As a veteran of both previous editions of descent , though i played the second edition far more than the first, i can tell you that the proposed iteration and its asking price comes as a serious disappointment.

I agree the price is very steep, its one of my own concerns about it. Other than that, as a fan of Descent: Journeys since 1st Ed. I am super excited about this new game and the (what I see as, you my not) improvements on the formula by going to a fully coop app driven experience.

 

Quote

Even when they took mansions of madness in the second edition and turned it into a full coop app driven experience, they at least had the good sense to make as much of the first edition material as they could usable in the second. we dont even that that little smidgen here  

Well, the difference is that Descent: Legends is a completely different game. MoM 2nd Ed. was not. When Descent: Journeys 3rd Ed does come out, if it does not convert any material from the first two editions then that would be a legitimate complaint.

I know people say that they "get it" when other say how "this is not Journeys, this is a new game," but then they keep offering complaints that show that they don't really grasp the concept. We didn't complain when Heroes of Terrinoth, or Legends of Dragonholt, or Runewars MG came out and didn't offer a conversion kit for Descent: Journeys material into that game.  

Because they were new games.

This is a new game.

 

Edited by kris40k

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16 hours ago, kris40k said:

Well, the difference is that Descent: Legends is a completely different game. MoM 2nd Ed. was not. When Descent: Journeys 3rd Ed does come out, if it does not convert any material from the first two editions then that would be a legitimate complaint.

actually its far more similar to descent 2e ed than mom 2 ed was to the first. legend of the dark function basically with the same mechanics. mansions of madness first ed used completely different game mechanics than the second edition. As for a descent 3rd edition, i seriously doubt there will be any

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21 hours ago, LiquidLogic said:

You don't have any basis for comparison because you haven't played the previous Descent(s), and thus the 'fuzz' over Legends of the Dark doesnt make sense to you. Honestly, you are probably their target audience now.

This! So exactly zero of my Descent 1st edition friends made the jump to 2ed. ZERO! I probably wouldn't have either except I never actually owned any of 1st and got a craving for Descent.

They're after the next generation, this isn't a game that was made for you and me.

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2 hours ago, LudVanB said:

actually its far more similar to descent 2e ed than mom 2 ed was to the first. legend of the dark function basically with the same mechanics. mansions of madness first ed used completely different game mechanics than the second edition. As for a descent 3rd edition, i seriously doubt there will be any

I think the Legends launch uses a lot of what they learned from the MoM 2nd Ed release. In fact, I would say its because of the feedback from that game that Legends exists as a separate game from Journeys

Kara Centell-Dunk explicitly spoke to the experience she developed working on one-shot scenarios with MoM 2nd Ed., and wanted to expand on that with a persistent campaign across multiple acts, but also, I think the big push back received from removing the Keeper (aka Overlord) from the game was recognized. They decided to keep Journeys as a competitive experience for those that enjoy that, and develop Legends without tethering it to the other game, or its existing content. 

The fact that they didn't write off the importance of the 1vM gameplay of Journeys, as they mistakenly did with MoM 2nd Ed., and respected it, leads me to believe that we will see a 3rd Ed of Journeys. Probably after the release of Legends Act 3, as there is a non-zero amount of audience crossover between these games and you don't want to detract from your own games sales. 

Edited by kris40k

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1 hour ago, Bucho said:

This! So exactly zero of my Descent 1st edition friends made the jump to 2ed. ZERO! I probably wouldn't have either except I never actually owned any of 1st and got a craving for Descent.

They're after the next generation, this isn't a game that was made for you and me.

It took me forever to make the jump from 1st to 2nd edition. Basically, I had to get older, gain kids, lose friends, and reach that point of adulthood where I am no longer capable of playing 4hr boardgames with/against other like minded, competitive adults and play some 2hr coop games alongside my 10 and 13 year old. Sure, I miss those old days, and the 1st Ed Road to Legend campaigns running for months, but I just don't have time for that, anymore. 2nd Ed. Road to Legends is a different experience, but still a fun and worthy experience.

Legends also really is a different game than Journeys 2nd Ed., and that's not a bad thing. As you say, its a different audience, although there is some crossover in the venn diagram.

Edited by kris40k

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On 11/6/2020 at 8:28 PM, Robbr said:

I actually heard about Descent for the fist time two months ago.  Since  corona, my family and I got into boardgaming.  I saw a copy of Descent at the local gameshop and at home I immediately searched the internet.  A couple of weeks later I learned about Legends oft the Dark.  In my opinion, with my fresh point of view, I must say this game looks overwhelmingly awesome to me.  What really shocked me though, was the amount of negativity about it on all kinds of forums.  To me, it all sounds a little bit like the way my mom reacted when I was 16 years old and started playing my metal and punk tapes really loud.  I get that, when you like a game realy much, you want the publisher to keep creating content.  But for new potential buyers, like me, it is only normal that new games are going to be developed.  I really hope the best for this NEW game (whitch is not the 3rd edition to your beloved Descent 2nd).  FFG is a company.  Companies have to make money in order to stay a company.  With money the make new things.  With money they improve and support older products as well.  So I guess it would be a great idea to positively stimulate new products that create new revenue, and maybe lead to improvement and support for older products.  For me, ...  I've already preordered my copy.  I paid 140 euro.  That's about 165 dollars.  Most big kickstarter games are more expensive.  So what's the fuzz?

Ow I have embraced it already, by not going for this version* of descent en spend my money elsewhere ;). I’m glad this is something for you, i hope this will gives your money right.

a small note om your point of cost tho. With most big kickstarter projects you get a complete game to play for that amount of money. What could make it more expensive is de FOMO of the addons, which is great marketing. But most titels will give a sh*tload of campaignplay with just the base game and not just the first act...

and the fuzz.. well I guess you aim on all the individuel opinions of the game so far. Well I respect them, the pro and con people, including yours that will get the game. I personally would wait with preordering before I have seen some more gameplay. But thats me.

again, I hope this game will bring you the joy you experiencing now!
Ow and thanks for calling me a nag😘

 

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On 11/13/2020 at 12:02 PM, kris40k said:

It took me forever to make the jump from 1st to 2nd edition. Basically, I had to get older, gain kids, lose friends, and reach that point of adulthood where I am no longer capable of playing 4hr boardgames with/against other like minded, competitive adults and play some 2hr coop games alongside my 10 and 13 year old. Sure, I miss those old days, and the 1st Ed Road to Legend campaigns running for months, but I just don't have time for that, anymore. 2nd Ed. Road to Legends is a different experience, but still a fun and worthy experience.

Legends also really is a different game than Journeys 2nd Ed., and that's not a bad thing. As you say, its a different audience, although there is some crossover in the venn diagram.

I personally think it’s very unlikely we’re going to see meaningful investment ion 1vM board games from FFG for the foreseeable future. The zeitgeist for games with that kind of player setup right now is TTRPGs which have never been more popular. There’s nothing to say that won’t change again between now and whenever LotD finishes its third act, of course, but solo and/or cooperative experiences, along with the traditional PvP are the dominant force in board games right now.

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On 11/13/2020 at 4:53 PM, kris40k said:

I think the Legends launch uses a lot of what they learned from the MoM 2nd Ed release. In fact, I would say its because of the feedback from that game that Legends exists as a separate game from Journeys

Kara Centell-Dunk explicitly spoke to the experience she developed working on one-shot scenarios with MoM 2nd Ed., and wanted to expand on that with a persistent campaign across multiple acts, but also, I think the big push back received from removing the Keeper (aka Overlord) from the game was recognized. They decided to keep Journeys as a competitive experience for those that enjoy that, and develop Legends without tethering it to the other game, or its existing content. 

The fact that they didn't write off the importance of the 1vM gameplay of Journeys, as they mistakenly did with MoM 2nd Ed., and respected it, leads me to believe that we will see a 3rd Ed of Journeys. Probably after the release of Legends Act 3, as there is a non-zero amount of audience crossover between these games and you don't want to detract from your own games sales. 

The truth of this statement as actually being in any way a real of valid point is entirely dependent on reprints of the 2nd edition material, something I've not heard about if its happening.. If not then 2nd edition is no longer in production and is a dead game in terms of the market and calling this anything other than 3rd edition is just a sales gimmick.

People mention MoM 2nd Edition which I own just about all of (and obviously enjoy), but if I could remove the monster from the app and put there rules and AI in the box I'd do it in a heart beat.. The fact this new app goes the other way makes me wonder what feedback they've actually listened too, because its not solid critical feedback. The only reason I wish this game to do well is purely because I love the descent series (owning all the expansions for 1st and 2nd edition), if it doesn't I don't see them ever doing anything I would consider purchasing for the series in the future.. On the other hand I kind of want this to flop, they have a massive audience and could have reached out and actually got feedback to what people who love the series are looking for.. I have feeling that while many would support a optional app as they have used before this overly (in my opinion) app heavy approach is a blind leap in the wrong direction and the price point is prohibitive as well.

I'll touch on the price point in more detail, I don't consider $175 that bad a price point, I back plenty of crowd funding projects and invest 3/4 times that amount, but a game with such a app heavy investment is a risk and for a plus $100 you really want one of two things, either to be appealing to an existing fan base who don't mind investing in something they love, which I from reading the forums get the feeling they've missed the mark on the majority of (but could be wrong, as the largest group of support are always those who a silent), or you need a non divisive game system and an app isn't that, its so divisive for a huge variety of reasons... This game is priced out of the range of games you'll take a chance on, its priced towards a fan base the games direction appears wrong for and is heavily invested in something that will reduce your market audience.. If I was someone who brought stocks and shares I wouldn't take a risk on this title for those reasons. It could be amazing but will enough people take the plunge when its entry cost is twice that of there other app heavy dungeon crawler... maybe that's there market, but I wouldn't bet on that risk.

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2 hours ago, crimsonsun said:

The truth of this statement as actually being in any way a real of valid point is entirely dependent on reprints of the 2nd edition material, something I've not heard about if its happening.. If not then 2nd edition is no longer in production and is a dead game in terms of the market and calling this anything other than 3rd edition is just a sales gimmick.

Its second hand information, but someone over at BBG posted their interaction with FFG customer service where the response, dated after the announcement of Descent: Legends, is that the plan is that all Descent: Journeys 2nd Ed. expansions are going to be reprinted

 

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10 hours ago, kris40k said:

Its second hand information, but someone over at BBG posted their interaction with FFG customer service where the response, dated after the announcement of Descent: Legends, is that the plan is that all Descent: Journeys 2nd Ed. expansions are going to be reprinted

 

I hope that holds true for those that are still seeking the expansions - There's some more monster and boss packs I would like but I've got some of both and all the boxed stuff already but I guess time will tell.

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15 hours ago, kris40k said:

Its second hand information, but someone over at BBG posted their interaction with FFG customer service where the response, dated after the announcement of Descent: Legends, is that the plan is that all Descent: Journeys 2nd Ed. expansions are going to be reprinted

 

  I have to say, though as mentioned before - I am not in the game industry but have been involved in branding, etc. for a long time: I am holding in my hand the physical copy of The Doom of Fallowhearth which arrived minutes ago, and still believe that this is not the sort of tie-in done for a 'dead line'.  Of note, too, is that they have redesigned the Descent: Journeys in the Dark Logo and used it here.  This is just not done unless something is (or was) in the works.  Like the second hand info above, take this insignificant detail with a grain of salt; I'm just thinking out loud and all is speculative (and when not speculative, fluid), but its got my eyebrows raised.

Edited by Cotgrave

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On 11/17/2020 at 10:31 PM, kris40k said:

Its second hand information, but someone over at BBG posted their interaction with FFG customer service where the response, dated after the announcement of Descent: Legends, is that the plan is that all Descent: Journeys 2nd Ed. expansions are going to be reprinted

 

I find it borderline unbelievable that someone working in customer service is informed enough to know which lines and products are going to be reprinted and authorized to say which lines are bestsellers.

 

On 11/17/2020 at 8:15 PM, crimsonsun said:

People mention MoM 2nd Edition which I own just about all of (and obviously enjoy), but if I could remove the monster from the app and put there rules and AI in the box I'd do it in a heart beat.. The fact this new app goes the other way makes me wonder what feedback they've actually listened too, because its not solid critical feedback.

MoM 2nd ed, as well as the app content for IA, Descent, and JiME have all been very popular. I suspect they're listening to the feedback that matters the most, which is sales.

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I want Descent Legends to be THE Game. I really do.  I want this to be the game that puts FFG at the top of the mountain.  I loved Descent 2E and have a decent size collection. I am not "one of those people who will hate the game no matter what. " I was a big fan of of 2E,  MoM, and Star Wars IA. I want to be supportive of FFG, because when those games were in production, I believe it was the premier game company.

That being said, I am somewhat disappointed with what we've been shown of Descent Legends. I can only go by what I've seen so far. I am not particularly fond of an app dependent game. I can see technology for managing stats ect...but after a certain point it- either make it a video game or don't. I wouldn't mind if there was an option to it such as RtL app. It made the game more versatile. It's possible that this unreleased app  knocks my socks off with something unexpected...but I don't see how.

I don't want any of the people who work on these games to lose their job . I really don't think the art is improvement over 2E at all. It is strikingly reminiscent of the 90s games Monkey Island, and King's Quest VII. I like the idea of 3D tiles, as I have made my 3D objects for 2E. The 3D tiles still do not make it look better than the previous versions. This is my opinion, but I don't think I am in a minority. It's interesting to make the new terrain interractive-I don't think it's justification for making the game less visually appealing. I don't think that was their goal.

Board games are certainly getting more costly. If you make a game that retails for $175, you had better justify it with some serious game play.

From the demo video, it really does seem like the designers really want to put effort to make certain aspects of the game better. I understand it's not 3rd edition. I will do my best to be objective but I don't really understand the logic: The first two editions were games MANY people enjoyed. Instead of improving the aspects of the game people enjoyed...they are redesigning a game in the hopes of making it better. I am unsure of the wisdom in this- and I am not alone.

I really don't understand the logic of discontinuing games people already enjoy in an effort to make new games related to games people enjoy. The best board games are timeless. (Chess, monopoly, Heroquest, ect.)

If FFG follows through and releases the game admits the complaints- there will be a lot of banking on the gameplay.  Something will have to make it outshine some of the "cons" mentioned here. I am not writing off buying the game- but that's some serious hopefulness.

I, for one, will take a wait and see attitude. Regardless of how this product does, I really hope for the future of the original Descent/Terrinoth lines. They were great, and I am happy to have played them.

 

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