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Total Destruction - Droid Tri-Fighter preview up!

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Anyone else realize that Marg-Sabl Closure is a Talent?  That means that we'll have at least one droid with a Talent slot!  That's unprecedented (aside from giving O-66 one a few updates back, but even then, that wasn't there on release).  I expect that it'll be the I5, but wouldn't it be great if more than one had the slot?

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3 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Guys, I think we should delete rebel Han.

To start, he's an Initiative 6 Falcon (aka boosting 'turret'), with passive mode, and almost surely taking a Force crew. He's kinda the total package.

Everyone knows it's a terrible experience to fly against him, and no fun can be had when doing so.

Thing is, folks came down HARD on Rebel Han, but just shrug Jango.  Meanwhile, Han's strength is... self-contained?  Nobody loves getting beat by it, but getting actively messed with by an opponent (Juke, Tractors, Ion... Jango is less strong but still messing with you) seems to generally be less enjoyable than a ship which is just stronger.

I dunno.  I just think an Jango meta is going to suck.

5 hours ago, Revanur said:

Maybe people aren't that mad about Jango as he is more like Quickdraw. More an I6 bruiser then he is an arc dodging ace. CIS Firespray has no acces to Slave1 which make Boba way more npe then without it. Also without the rerolls that Boba brings the force crew is also slightly less good. 

Not having to get to Range 1 is going to be a major factor, though.  Boba's "stay close" goal changes how he has to fly.  Meanwhile, he exists with access to DRK-1 probes so can easily start with locks, and I think folks are underestimating how effective Jango's ability can be, mathematically speaking.  When someone can't get a lock, and is stuck on focus with an active Jango, that's actually a rather large penalty to their attack dice.

Folks say it'll never happen, but when it does happen, it is impactful.  But it's not as easy to evaluate as a reroll, and it seems like folks just presume Jango's blank text, when he won't be.

And I really don't see how he's more QD than arc dodger.  The big reason QD isn't really an arc dodger is the lack of a boost, and the lack of passive mods.  Jango has the tools to do it.

5 hours ago, Revanur said:

That you are triggered to limit your flying against abilities like Jango or Ric is (sorry to say) more your problem.

I mean, this is kinda what I've been saying.  I'm annoyed by him, I'm mad about him, I think he'll be unfun.

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14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Not having to get to Range 1 is going to be a major factor, though.  Boba's "stay close" goal changes how he has to fly.  Meanwhile, he exists with access to DRK-1 probes so can easily start with locks, and I think folks are underestimating how effective Jango's ability can be, mathematically speaking.  When someone can't get a lock, and is stuck on focus with an active Jango, that's actually a rather large penalty to their attack dice.

Folks say it'll never happen, but when it does happen, it is impactful.  But it's not as easy to evaluate as a reroll, and it seems like folks just presume Jango's blank text, when he won't be.

And I really don't see how he's more QD than arc dodger.  The big reason QD isn't really an arc dodger is the lack of a boost, and the lack of passive mods.  Jango has the tools to do it.

Not saying the ability will never happen, but going out of your way to make it happen as the Jango player really limits your options way more then it is worth. Especially since the opponent is also still able to counteract it and blocking you will also be more easy if you only want to do blue moves with him. 

And although it might save or cause an extra damage here or there. It is not more impactfull then Luminara's ability or the extra damage dealt by Torani in Bulls eye. 

Boba might be flown resricted by some for wanting to be in range 1, but sometimes taking a range 2 shot without getting shot back is better. So it doesn't have to limit his flying, but it is active in range 1 and even while blocked and doesn't matter what your opponent dialed in or rolled. So his ability will happen way more often. 

30 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Thing is, folks came down HARD on Rebel Han, but just shrug Jango.  Meanwhile, Han's strength is... self-contained?  Nobody loves getting beat by it, but getting actively messed with by an opponent (Juke, Tractors, Ion... Jango is less strong but still messing with you) seems to generally be less enjoyable than a ship which is just stronger.

I dunno.  I just think an Jango meta is going to suck.

And I really don't see how he's more QD than arc dodger.  The big reason QD isn't really an arc dodger is the lack of a boost, and the lack of passive mods.  Jango has the tools to do it.

I mean, this is kinda what I've been saying.  I'm annoyed by him, I'm mad about him, I think he'll be unfun.

While QD doesn't have a boost, she does have a barrel roll which Jango doesn't have. A real arc dodger can do both. Boba is often more like a real arc dogder thanks to Slave 1 which gives him 2nd option to evade arcs. Plus he can opt to get into the block and deny a shot and giving himself extra passive mods through it. That extra choice Jango doesn't have.

 

I am curious. Do you also hate the Jam action? As I feel like you dislike everything a ship can do to your ships besides attacking it. 

The only thing I currenlty dislike about Jango is that I lore wise see him more as part of Scum and not Seperatist. But on the other hand I am happy that he is part of a different faction as that leaves Jango without Slave 1 which would on I6 be something I can way more understand the frustration on and gives CIS some other play options besides swarms all around.

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21 minutes ago, Revanur said:

I am curious. Do you also hate the Jam action? As I feel like you dislike everything a ship can do to your ships besides attacking it. 

Not necessarily.  I think 1e Jam was frequently pretty annoying.  With the reduced range in 2e, no longer handing out two tokens with cheap crew, and Jam tokens disappearing at the end of the turn, it's not too bad.

But I think it's got the potential to be kinda unfun.  I don't know how it'd be to play against a zippy ship like a Fang or TIE/v1, but roll/boost linked into Jam actions instead of Focus.  And Erratic C1-10P isn't necessarily a problem (might be a hair too cheap, tho) since it can backfire if no one else is in range, but something handing out free Jams stronger than Chopper might be pretty frustrating.  Probably more frustrating than the Force.

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1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Thing is, folks came down HARD on Rebel Han

Who did? When? Where?

 

The only time anyone has moaned about Han was one specific, broken build that got nuked by rule and slot changes after only a couple of weeks. 

We only got to a point last points changes where people stopped complaining that Han was overcosted

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15 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

I think it stands to reason that 2nd edition X-wing and 1st edition are two very different games, and just because a card in 2nd reads similarly to something that existed in 1st doesn't mean they work the same.

I also think it stands to reason that there is no obvious conclusion from this spoiler, so no need for outrage.

Instead of looking at what Tracers did in 1st, look at what Tracers will do in 2nd.

They definitely are very different games, but that is because 2nd edition has largely dialed back many 1st Edition upgrades. When I see a decent upgrade from 1st that has been expanded to be greater than it was from that edition, some skepticism is not unwarranted. You say to instead of looking what tracers did in 1st, look at what tracers will do in 2nd, let's do that.

Let's examine 3 focused, two-die attacks vs. 3 focused agility and 2 focus/locked three-die attacks vs. the same defense. The first scenario has all 3 ships firing primaries netting an average of 1.029 damage. The second scenario loses a primary attack since that ship is firing a Tracer, but the other 2 ships gain locks for secondary attacks pumping up their attack to 3. These 2 shots net an average 2.373 which is more than double the damage. The more it is extrapolated, the better the tracers look, doing more damage in every case, and this isn't even considering that the two-die shots would do even worse at range 3.

  2d+F 3d+F+L minus 1 shot
2 shot 0.585 0.988
3 shot 1.029 2.373
4 shot 1.530 3.933
5 shot 2.070 5.572

Certainly the damage out put was stronger in 1st with Harpoons, but the opportunity was smaller. 1st Edition would only hand out locks to range 2, while 2nd gives them to out to range 3 expanding the boost to munitions greatly.  Additionally in 1st, the Tracers and Harpoons could only be fired once without spending points on Extra Munitions if a ship even had the torpedo slot to take them. Concussion Missiles may be rolling 1 less die, but they essentially have two sets of Extra Munitions tacked on since they have 3 charges. Much better value there.

We don't have the pricing for the Tracers yet, but Tracers + Extra Munitions cost 3 points in 1st, equating to 6 points in 2nd. If they are cheaper than that, they are better than 1st edition in every way.

----------------------------

Trying a different approach, if we hypothetically brought Flight Assist Astromech or Lightweight Frame (two decent but not OP upgrades) over from 1st, and gave them slight buffs, even before the ever hit a playmat I would be worried about them. Just because we haven't seen it in the 2nd edition environment, doesn't mean that we can't suss out potential problems. Upgrades that were decent to good in 1st should be toned down when porting over to 2nd, not the other way around.

 

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5 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Guys, I think we should delete rebel Han.

To start, he's an Initiative 6 Falcon (aka boosting 'turret'), with passive mode, and almost surely taking a Force crew. He's kinda the total package.

Everyone knows it's a terrible experience to fly against him, and no fun can be had when doing so.

I used to hate Saw Han backed up by the HWK that gives him another die.  That just punches your **** in.

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3 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

Anyone else realize that Marg-Sabl Closure is a Talent?  That means that we'll have at least one droid with a Talent slot!  That's unprecedented (aside from giving O-66 one a few updates back, but even then, that wasn't there on release).  I expect that it'll be the I5, but wouldn't it be great if more than one had the slot?

Or more hilariously, it will only be on the quickbuild cards like the afterburners.

Edited by CaptainJaguarShark

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2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The only time anyone has moaned about Han was one specific, broken build that got nuked by rule and slot changes after only a couple of weeks. 

We only got to a point last points changes where people stopped complaining that Han was overcosted

Extended Han is pretty gross still.

I like Hyperspace Han though. Actually it's more of an inverse relationship with the number of upgrades he has, I guess.

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I oftenn don't like playing against lists that messens with my list. I mostly build crappy lists around  jank ideas, but if  the whole experiment gets shot down by enemy effects, I often feel I had a bad game, because I don't get to have to fun I was plantning on testning. I don't really play to win but to try new ideas.

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1 hour ago, CaptainJaguarShark said:

Or more hilariously, it will only be on the quickbuild cards like the afterburners.

You know that same talent is also in the eta actis pack, even if they didn't show it in the spoiler article. 

So... the same thing with the **** quickbuilds for the eta?... 🙄

Edited by xanatos135

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11 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

When I was hypothesizing about these, I guessed they would be a 2 dice front arc, with a 4 dice bullseye. 

It would have felt right, but I suppose they likely thought that would have been too close to the Nantex. It would have been interesting for them to get the same stat line as the Eta-2 though.

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This whole thing with structures suggests some sort of forthcoming scenarios pack with some perhaps turret models or turret cardboard or other stationary target sorts of things does it not? It clearly seems a bit much as simply a future-proofing sort of thing.

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7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Still a bit amazed that these are 3 attack die and not 2 attack. I woulda guessed a swarm of these highly mobile ships woulda been more on theme. They’re tiny also. 

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Still a bit amazed that these are 3 attack die and not 2 attack. I woulda guessed a swarm of these highly mobile ships woulda been more on theme. They’re tiny also. 

4 guns actually. It has one on the central pod too. They are scary ships, and one of their most notable characteristics is that they are super heavily armed, basically guns with an engine strapped to them.

Edited by dezzmont

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On 10/22/2020 at 9:16 AM, theBitterFig said:

To start, he's an Initiative 6 Firespray (aka boosting 'turret'), with passive mods, and almost surely taking a Force crew.  He's kind of the total package.

Add in the fact that folks who tend to be really mad about every part of that--I6, boosting turrets, passive mods, force--don't seem to care about Jango.  That's just totally baffling to me.

Third, would be my own neurosis.  When I fly against Ric, I find myself dialing in a lot of 3 speeds on everyone, to avoid his triggers, and having my dials controlled like that by an enemy ship is... irksome to me.  It's just unfun.  Jango operates in the same way.  I've got to give up control of my actions or dial in ways that I'm sure will be very annoying to play against--at least very annoying for me to play against.  I think Jango, whether or not he murders stuff on the board, will be a total buzzkill.

IG Aggressors laugh in the face of Jango! Well maybe not full belly laughs, but with 9 blue moves and the option to take Sync’d cannons, it could be a decent counter to Jango. I want to break out the Aggressors, they just need a bit more tweaking atm. 

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On 10/21/2020 at 6:16 PM, theBitterFig said:

To start, he's an Initiative 6 Firespray (aka boosting 'turret'), with passive mods, and almost surely taking a Force crew.  He's kind of the total package.

Add in the fact that folks who tend to be really mad about every part of that--I6, boosting turrets, passive mods, force--don't seem to care about Jango.  That's just totally baffling to me.

So like, Jango is in every way less remarkable than Boba, who's already priced in. Maybe you're operating in the specific subset of playing i6s or (specifically deep bidding i5s), but like, me and my droid swarms and no-bid i5s are just like, whatever he boosts after me and init kills most of my pilots either way. At least I can plausibly hurt this one.

I think the more instructive companion thread would've been "does anyone else hate Ric?", because that's a pilot we've actually had on tables for an age and yet an opinion I've never seen before.

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2 hours ago, svelok said:

So like, Jango is in every way less remarkable than Boba, who's already priced in. Maybe you're operating in the specific subset of playing i6s or (specifically deep bidding i5s), but like, me and my droid swarms and no-bid i5s are just like, whatever he boosts after me and init kills most of my pilots either way. At least I can plausibly hurt this one.

I think the more instructive companion thread would've been "does anyone else hate Ric?", because that's a pilot we've actually had on tables for an age and yet an opinion I've never seen before.

I don't think Jango is going to be so horrible or opressing, but also his effect is not so comparable to Ric's. Ric doesn't mess with the opponent's dice in any way, while Jango does. Maybe that's what is driving people mad? I guess, I don't see so much of an issue. 

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