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31 minutes ago, Giledhil said:

Why the **** is that guy limited to Republic, and not accessible to scum and rebels?...

There really is no good mechanical reason. It definitely feels like its more on the 'business side' of things, and I will refrain from elaborating further to avoid sounding conspiratorial and bringing down the mood.

Besides unlike Jedi boosting through gas clouds Rebels are unlikely to want to do this too much. It isn't a great lost, but it is definitely a symbolic loss at least.

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I'd say the better solution would be to simply print ships that largely aren't combat ships with 1 attack

2 dice attackers already struggle to land anything at 2 dice when the meta gets too defensive 1 attack dice ships might as well be 0 attack dice ships in some matchups, which is why sometimes making the range too wide is actually bad: 2 or 3 being 90% of the ships in the game allows them to consistently design defensive ships at a level where they can generally be chipped away at even by 2 dice ships, and a 4+ attack generally requires close range or special powers or weapons so you don't have a fat ship suddenly detonating because someone brought a fleet of 4 dice ships. You get into a funky situation where that 1 red is meaningful vs say... a Y-wing, but may as well not exist vs a TIE.

This squeeze an explicit goal of 2.0 even: Later releases pushed the scale of dice up to the point where 2 greens didn't mean much more than 1, and 3 red didn't mean much more than 2, as everyone was blasting away with 4 red base attacks.

Because the red dice serve the dual purpose of being both accuracy AND power, its fine for a dinky aftermarket blaster cannon to make the space tug able to hurt some stuff if it gets a lucky shot. And the game wouldn't be served well by reducing the spacetug's points and giving it 1 red because it would be overwhelming in some matchups and dead points in others.

I think if they wanted to make a ship less powerful than 2 it would be better done in a way other than literally making it roll 1 red. Like, for example, needing to spend a charge to make an attack, or gaining strain after attacking so it needed to 'cool off.'

Edited by dezzmont

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Do you have to roll for damage with new Q7? It doesn't say to ignore them so assume yes. Seems like damaging yourself while arc-dodging is a bit counterproductive

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9 minutes ago, Zura said:

Do you have to roll for damage with new Q7? It doesn't say to ignore them so assume yes. Seems like damaging yourself while arc-dodging is a bit counterproductive

If the obstacle is a gas cloud you are only potentially getting a strain, not so bad. I would also do it through debris. In the end, it is unlikely you get the crit, and stress on jedi is not crippling (it would be fun to take the risk 😃

I wouldn't do it through rocks though, specially since you can't shoot if you land on them =S

 

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Yeah I think Q7 is ok on Jedi with gas. Land on it, maybe get a strain, still get your Fine-Tuned move off of the gas. 

But honestly I still think it isn't that great. The fact that it isn't in other factions isn't a huge loss to them lol

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1 attack die ships was something the designers expressly stated in an interview once (Davy, I think it was) that they considered to be a mistake in first edition. And they were right. That's why they only made one ship with it even back then. Single die rolls are now the domain of minor effects. Like checking for damage against self with an ability.

This is one of the inherent difficulties in X-wings architecture that accuracy and damage potential are linked. And that the disparity can get so out of whack between even 2 and 3 dice pools in terms of what they can accomplish that you have to start tacking on so many other limiters to keep say a 4 die attack in check. Just look at basic Proton Torpedoes. Range restricted, lock required, and still got moved to 13 points. Going to 1 is the inverse problem, it then costs the ship negatively.

You don't want to create the possibility that a game state could stall out as much as possible. Single attack die pools would be very prone to getting the game to a point where no progress can reasonably be made. And that's just no fun. 

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5 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Why the **** is that guy limited to Republic, and not accessible to scum and rebels?...

In-universe, the Q7 series of astromechs were designed and built exclusively to partner with the V-wing. They didn't even have a traditional astromech body, instead being round (and using repulsorlift generators to move around), and were generally considered a poor substitute for a full astromech unit in any craft that could fit them. Those units that got picked up by third parties post war were either dumped due to the repulsors being expensive to maintain (and there being other performance issues with the unit) or rebuilt into R2 or R4 configurations.

For game balance; Rebels are getting a talent which allows their X-wings to move through/overlap obstacles while their wings are closed, so an astromech which would allow them to always do that would render the card junk. I'm no expert on Scum, but I believe that there are only two Scum ships with astromech slots native (Y-wing, Kimogila) and two which can get them via titles (Punishing One Jumpmaster, Havok Scurgg). None of these have the boost action, all have red barrel rolls. I don't see the need for this droid in the faction; there's an argument for whether or not it should still be allowed, but then FFG would have to find a means to release the card in a Scum expansion to quiet any complaints about being 'forced' to buy outside of a given faction to obtain upgrades that they can theoretically use.

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7 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

...but then FFG would have to find a means to release the card in a Scum expansion to quiet any complaints about being 'forced' to buy outside of a given faction to obtain upgrades that they can theoretically use.

Like my buying a couple of HMP Gunships to get the Sync Lasers even though I have zero interest in playing Seps? 😁

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47 minutes ago, Spinland said:

Like my buying a couple of HMP Gunships to get the Sync Lasers even though I have zero interest in playing Seps? 😁

Well, those will be released shortly...ish for the Empire in the TIE Brute expansion, and I would expect that the Rebel and (hypothetical) Scum & FO Squadron packs will find a way to squeeze that one in there somehow. If the Resistance are to get the upgrade, it'd likely come in the Resistance B-wing expansion (if such a thing gets made, of course).

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6 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

If the Resistance are to get the upgrade, it'd likely come in the Resistance B-wing expansion (if such a thing gets made, of course).

Makes sense. Rebel is one of my factions and I got the cards to adorn my existing two Bs. 

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2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

1 attack die ships was something the designers expressly stated in an interview once (Davy, I think it was) that they considered to be a mistake in first edition. And they were right. That's why they only made one ship with it even back then. Single die rolls are now the domain of minor effects. Like checking for damage against self with an ability.

This is one of the inherent difficulties in X-wings architecture that accuracy and damage potential are linked. And that the disparity can get so out of whack between even 2 and 3 dice pools in terms of what they can accomplish that you have to start tacking on so many other limiters to keep say a 4 die attack in check. Just look at basic Proton Torpedoes. Range restricted, lock required, and still got moved to 13 points. Going to 1 is the inverse problem, it then costs the ship negatively.

You don't want to create the possibility that a game state could stall out as much as possible. Single attack die pools would be very prone to getting the game to a point where no progress can reasonably be made. And that's just no fun. 

Honestly, you're probably not wrong here. 1 die attacks would be miserable and the points would potentially be a concern, but there are only a few ships that would realistically fit the criteria for being considered for a 1 die attack.

Since that isn't going to happen, there are multiple options to differentiate combat potential of 2 die ships, some of which FFG has used already such as Advanced Optics (Works on 3 dice of course, but biggest use has been for the RZ-2 at this point) or some of these newer configs. Other things like playing with range, additional combat effects, or even bonus attacks haven't been used much or at all yet, but IMO would be welcome

We will see what the future holds though, since I really don't have more than minor complaints about the ships and upgrades we've gotten in the last year or so. Point values aside anyway

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19 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Detonators specify that each must be placed using a different template, so I'd assume they don't work with Finch (no template) but work fine with the rest as long as you don't use the same template twice. 

For Finch, I would simply say that the 2 tokens cannot be overlapped. Keep It Simple.

 

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2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

1 attack die ships was something the designers expressly stated in an interview once (Davy, I think it was) that they considered to be a mistake in first edition. And they were right. That's why they only made one ship with it even back then. Single die rolls are now the domain of minor effects. Like checking for damage against self with an ability.

This is one of the inherent difficulties in X-wings architecture that accuracy and damage potential are linked. And that the disparity can get so out of whack between even 2 and 3 dice pools in terms of what they can accomplish that you have to start tacking on so many other limiters to keep say a 4 die attack in check. Just look at basic Proton Torpedoes. Range restricted, lock required, and still got moved to 13 points. Going to 1 is the inverse problem, it then costs the ship negatively.

You don't want to create the possibility that a game state could stall out as much as possible. Single attack die pools would be very prone to getting the game to a point where no progress can reasonably be made. And that's just no fun. 

I don't really consider it an inverse problem.  A 1-die attack ship should be a sign that the ship should be doing something else for a living than lining up shots. 

Giving everything 2 dice simply says:  "You think everything the game looks like a nail?  Here's a hammer."

3 hours ago, Target_2.0 said:

Instead of using 1 die for non-combat ships, they could have limited range.  Or had a slot for 'defensive weapon.'  Then there would be an additional design space while also showing more difference between a TIE/ln and a space tug. 

Also this.  There are a lot of creative ways to give a ship 1 attack as an inherent primary but a way to circumstantially buff it.

7 hours ago, dezzmont said:

which is why sometimes making the range too wide is actually bad: 2 or 3 being 90% of the ships in the game allows them to consistently design defensive ships at a level where they can generally be chipped away at even by 2 dice ships, 

I think if they wanted to make a ship less powerful than 2 it would be better done in a way other than literally making it roll 1 red. Like, for example, needing to spend a charge to make an attack, or gaining strain after attacking so it needed to 'cool off.'

The first part certainly makes sense.

And the second is a great idea to make a ship functionally a 2 die ship while pseudo-statistically be a 1 die per round attack.

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2 hours ago, AceDogbert said:

If the Resistance are to get the upgrade, it'd likely come in the Resistance B-wing expansion (if such a thing gets made, of course).

FFG added the B-Wing keyword into the points list back when they added the builder keywords which makes me think they have plans.

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27 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I don't really consider it an inverse problem.  A 1-die attack ship should be a sign that the ship should be doing something else for a living than lining up shots. 

Ok so your pricing the ship as a 0 attack ship in that reality. In which case vs 1 and 0 agility ships suddenly your list is comically deadly. If you price the 1 dice to be between 2 and 0 then your still too deadly vs low agility ships but now are actively low key bad vs anything higher. There isn't much room to wiggle on this unless there are effects that make that 1 dicer able to actually do damage very consistently with a cap of 1, in which case they are better than a regular 2 dicer because the main downside of 2 dice is they are very inconsistent and often fail to hurt more agile ships, which makes it this weird case where the ship that is meant to have the worse gun generally does more damage?

As for 'Here is a hammer' well... this is a game where everything is indeed a nail. A ship without the capacity to be a hammer is such a dead ship that, again, its really hurting any 2 dice attackers without ways to boost their consistency anymore. The scale of 'No passive mod 2 dice attacks' and 'modded 2 dice attacks' already low key might be too wide a space. A pure non-combat ship would need to have a pretty fantastic and game warping ability to justify itself, and FFG already sorta cleverly makes ships less combat focused by the combination of 2 red and dial, which does a lot more to make a gun unwieldy in a fun way than just reducing reds. That said, if they REALLY wanted to make a 'this isn't a combat ship' effect, 0 dice is infinitely more healthy than 1 dice because you don't have to decide if you price around certain lists being disproportionately affected by the 1 red. Now its worthless vs EVERYONE and you don't have this 'binary imbalance' pricing issue where the ship is either broken vs some lists or so bad vs the majority of ships in the game it never sees play.

Trying to 'close the gap' on attacks is downright something they seem to be prioritizing this wave with stuff like ATP, Patience, and now Esh:  Low attack dice effects need to be more consistent, not less.

Edited by dezzmont

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Back when the Sheathipede came out in the dark days of 1.0, I had hoped it would be a pure support ship.  Instead of a front/back arc, I would have been happier with a 2 dice range 1 turret. 

For 2.0 I would have liked to have seen a single arc turret with range 2 and the ordnance symbol to prevent the extra R1 die.  1 or 2 crew.  Give it a chassis ability for support (maybe link any action into coordinate or extended range coordinate or something).  Any linked actions emphasize support or defense. 

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2 hours ago, dezzmont said:

As for 'Here is a hammer' well... this is a game where everything is indeed a nail. A ship without the capacity to be a hammer is such a dead ship that,

IMHO, having the game be nothing more than "hammer vs nail" is one of the main weaknesses of XWM in the first place.  But that is a whole different thread.

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Ok so your pricing the ship as a 0 attack ship in that reality. In which case vs 1 and 0 agility ships suddenly your list is comically deadly. If you price the 1 dice to be between 2 and 0 then your still too deadly vs low agility ships but now are actively low key bad vs anything higher. There isn't much room to wiggle on this unless there are effects that make that 1 dicer able to actually do damage very consistently with a cap of 1, in which case they are better than a regular 2 dicer because the main downside of 2 dice is they are very inconsistent and often fail to hurt more agile ships, which makes it this weird case where the ship that is meant to have the worse gun generally does more damage?

I'm not sure I follow this.  My expectation would be that a 1 die attack might be a little lower, basically to offset the real cost of the ship's true offensive capacity, which might be Jam tokens, a secondary weapon, support crew that aid the list, etc.

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I have very occasionally treated one of my ships as having 0 attack dice. If it's there to nuisance things up, or offer heavy support, sometimes it may be better to have it skirt the action as a bait, move in to block, or simply hide off screen until it needs to jump in as meat shield.

Sometimes, Soontir may as well have 0 reds....

If it's offering something different, over and above a simple jam/coord action, then there's space for it at certain cost values.

Not really any ships I can think of that can do this in a way that makes up for never being able to shoot atm.

A permacloaked Quad with DMS and Baffle was only a certain sort of bad.

There's a tiny smidge of value in having a LAAT that just runs round disarmed atm.... admittedly, the choice of shoot/not shoot is way better and kinda clutch there.....

I almost flew a Squad Ldr MTG with no real care about whether it got to shoot or not... that list was probably bad.....

I think there's interesting space for 0. 1 attack dice seems pointless to me. If it's high likelihood of hitting, it's just pseudo 2 dice.

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

One die attack ships would have a place if there were ways to score points other than killing things.

The doubt I have about 1 attack die is the amount of times it would just be unnecessary extra rolls against anything more than unmodded 2 die defence, where there's generally HP to burn.

The 1 die attack needs to achieve something that isn't damage related....

There are mechanics for missed attacks already.....

I mean, I don't know. Cue bigger brain.

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