Jump to content
Pa Weasley

Is there a point value that angled deflectors become viable-ish?

Recommended Posts

The title kind of says it all in this instance.  My gut produces a general gurgling sound that I usual take to mean a card has something going for it.  Buuuut a high price point in addition to loosing a shield is more than I can justify.  For example:  I can gain reinforce for Wolffe with AD for six and a shield or opt for Plo (crew) for 10 to keep the shield and include a **** fine ability.  At the current price scale it's just a bad investment. 

So is there a price point, short of zero, that would make you considering AD? I know it will never be even a B tier card but there has to be a balanced place where it feels like a viable option for a funsies list at a minimum. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So 1 agi is where it is most useful but most expensive. I don't know where to put it for 1 agi at all. Maybe Sinker? But why bother with Sinker anymore when there is the LAAT?

It seems decent on Malarus, especially in the 3 Silencer build. Make those rerolls stay and trigger Fanatical sooner! My only problem with that is Terrex is the best crew with them and accidentally jamming your possible reinforce away isn't fun. Sure, opening lock fixes that, but what about the 2nd self-jam? Maybe I'm not leveraging it fully.

I've unironically considered it with a shield upgraded Kyle Katarn, but since Kyle has only 2 turns of purely passive support (unlike Malarus' completely passive Howlrunner effect), I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shield sacrifice is already a heavy cost. If we look at shield upgrade I'm already paying 4-6 points right there. Not to mention reducing my half points limit on my ship. 6 points on top of that seems steep for a 1 agility ship.

Then I have to consider is whatever I'm putting it on have good action econamy to make good use of it?

It came with the Resistance transport, those ships were DOA, 2 attack, 1 agility neither makes them offensive or tanky. Plus their support actions are all red, so they can't do that efficiently either. They could really do with the that reinforce, even with the shield sacrifice. 

However make any of them efficient you have to invest alot of points into them.

Nodin for instance can have the action economy to use focus and reinforce but needs Korr Sella, R4, Larma D'Acy to trigger every turn. I've already invested 12 points just to get his ability to work. Now do I spend 6 more points will shore up his defences and sacrifice a shield doing it? Better just to take a shield upgrade or look at offence.

If angled deflectors had an additional linked action. Reinforce > Red focus then it might be worth fielding on 2 agility ships. 

This card could have been good if it included large bases and was priced for those. Starfortresses could really use it. However there was so many people freaking out about this card when it was revealed that it could never have been possible. 

In summary, shield sacrifice is the main cost that puts me off, the action economy to use it second. The price could come down but I can't see anything I'd still use it on.

 

Edited by Tyhar7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends entirely on where you use it.  Braylen with Angled Deflectors and closed S-foils (flying with a coordinator) is the tankiest B-wing ever.  A swarm of I3 FOs with Angled Deflectors and Fanatical (maybe Advanced Optics if you want to spend the points) is consistent on offense and defense.  It could also be worth a try on E-wings, Miranda, Vader, Luke (maybe with Brilliant Evasion for ultimate defense), Nom Lumb with Lando crew, a Resistance ship that also has Rose, etc.  On the surface it's probably too expensive but there are several places where it may be worth most of it's points.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For starters, it'll probably never be good on 3 agility ships.  There just aren't enough of them that have enough total health to care.

For two agility... again, I think health totals are pretty much all too low to bother with this.  Closest is Xi.  With low offense, but some nice auras, maybe it'd be OK, but Reinforce doesn't add a lot to 2 agility defenders, so probably not even quite worth it.

For one agility... well, I'd say at 3 points it might be worth it (it could probably be 3 points at all agility values... well, maybe more at Agi 0, but there are no Agi 0 medium or small base ships).  That's the cost of a hull upgrade, and trading 2 health for a reinforce action seems "worth it" if you have a ship which is willing to dedicate it's action to Reinforce. But is there anyone who actually wants to take Reinforce actions?  Kinda no.  The solution, then, isn't to keep reducing the price on this to a point where it just adds so much toughness that it's hard to reject, even at the lost of offense (coordinate ship doesn't help, since that's another ship giving up offense!).  The solution is just to make peace with the fact that, even if it's at a fair price, most players don't want to spend their turns doing Reinforce actions.  Sometimes it's enough that an upgrade exists, and folks have the option to use it, even if they choose not to.

tl,dr: Even at a fair price (probably 3 @ agi 1), folks don't use it, so just leave it fair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FFG has a real problem costing upgrades that already include an inherent penalty: Angled Deflectors, Static Discharge Vanes, Saturation Salvo, Feedback Array.  They seem to be so afraid of a corner case where the card is good that they cost it into oblivion.  That said while none of these are competitive, they are fun when you use them.  Pre-nerf SDV was super useful in Republic lists with Chopper or Illicit lists with Feedback Array, and the more I think about it Deflectors on Vader or Luke sound more and more appealing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm not certain I would put it on any ship even at 1 point, as the real cost is the shield and the action. The one ship I want to put it on is the StarFortress, and that ship cannot take it as the upgrade is restricted to small and medium base ships.

I think at 1 point I could consider it for Torani Kulda, maybe. Or Scurrgs... maybe. Both because they don't necessarily need to use rely on their attacks to do damage. Definitely needs to be cheaper than a hull upgrade to be even potentially worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the card was "White reinforce linked to red calculate" then it may be worth 3-4 points when accounting for losing the shield.

I think the difficulty is you lose a shield, it takes your action (big opportunity cost), and reinforce is not as good in 2.0 bc it does not stop 1 hit (thank goodness for that, though).

Linking a red calculate would at least give you a mod. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there's a place for it on a single ship, actually a subclass of one; Renegade U-Wings. The Pivot Wing with Contraband Cybernetics allows it to tank a Reinforce at 1AG for 2AG cost. It's a little cheeky, but putting it on Saw, who is okay with becoming damaged, can add a neat element to casual play with. 

 

It should totally have a negative cost. Reinforce is not as good as it used to be due to higher swarm play/avg enemy ship count. Lots more shots coming in, and low AG ships aren't melting the meta. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

No, it should be a negative points cost.

I think Angled Deflectors generally worth negative points, but I don't think it should have an actual negative cost in game.

The places where Reinforce might be strong and annoying are ships which don't need to have costs reduced.  4-LOM is a good example of that, or a Sloane Reaper.

Then there's breakpoints.  5 Reinforcing B-Wings, or 6 Reinforcing Ion Republic Y-Wings, are just things that I don't think should exist.  Busted?  Eh, maybe not, but like... I just don't think they should exist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Norra Wexley would pay a few points for deflectors. Not 6 but I'd pay 3.

Imagine a range one incoming shot of 4 hits and before rolling your one defense die knowing the most damage you can take is two... That feels good

Edited by Amc879
Adding detail

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

on redline could be ok

maybe one of the best platform for angled deflectors

reinforce+lock could be good on a 1 agi ship and passing from 9 to 8 health points could be "sustainable" but not at that price (expecially considering that TO ME redline, due to its fragility and tendency to allways explode, is overcosted too).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/8/2020 at 3:24 PM, 5050Saint said:

Hard no.

Why? And notice I was not only refering to 1.0, but other changes to the reinforce ability which might make it more interesting. And would be a way to make the card more interesting without changing the text on the card. 
 

Fluff-wise, angled deflectors should be something done inflight, so ihmo the card should have been: "Spend a shield at the start of the engagement phase to perform a free reinforce action". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(I’m surprised @Wazat hasn’t weighed in yet, he has strong opinions on reinforce and Angled Deflectors.)

As a few others have pointed out, Reinforce in 2.0 is lackluster at best and Angled Deflectors is straight up hot garbage. It wouldn’t be worthwhile even at 0 points. Think about it, for it to be worthwhile you’d have to prevent at least 1 damage with it just to make up for the cost of losing a shield. But wait, it also takes an action to use, so you’d have to prevent probably 2-3 damage to make up for the action cost. But now, compare taking the reinforce action to simply taking a focus/calculate action, which every ship can already do for free anyway, plus focus/calculate can be used for offense if needed and they work if the attacker is coming at you from a different angle than you predicted. 
 

So basically, AD would have to prevent at least 3+ damage per game to be worth taking, even at 0 points. Go ahead and fly a ship with reinforce one game and track how much damage you prevent with reinforce. Even the Ghost or Decimator struggles to prevent more than 3 damage a game with reinforce, but a ship with half as much health as they have? Fat chance. 
 

On 10/8/2020 at 6:53 AM, Sciencius said:

So could they change/buff the reinforce-ability to make this upgrade worth it? back to 1.0 perhaps?

Personally, I think reinforce should have been done like this:

1. Reinforce tokens are blue, meaning they don’t clear at the end of the round. 
 

2. Reinforce action works like this:

- You may only perform the reinforce action if you have no reinforce tokens 

- (everything else is the same, pick an arc to reinforce, it prevents 1 damage in that arc but always let at least 1 damage through, etc). 

- During the end phase, you may choose to remove 1 reinforce token. 

(obviously points would have to be adjusted on some ships in order to balance it out)

And then I would change Angled Deflectors to work like so:

Add a white Reinforce action to your action bar. Whenever you perform a reinforce action, you must spend 1 shield or the action fails. Whenever you remove a reinforce token, recover 1 shield. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I've had fun using it on an FO Fanatical swarm and on Redline with LT. Sai as a wingman.  Neither was particularly effective, but it makes for some fun combos.

I feel like the FO use is probably the only sensible one. W/Malarus in the Xi, you could basically get full mods and leave the TIEs to reinforce or evade. But yeah, probably casual list at best:

Commander Malarus (43)

Omega Squadron Ace (28)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)

Omega Squadron Ace (28)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)

Omega Squadron Ace (28)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)

Omega Squadron Ace (28)
Fanatical (2)
Angled Deflectors (3)

Epsilon Squadron Cadet (25)
Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Personally, I think reinforce should have been done like this:

1. Reinforce tokens are blue, meaning they don’t clear at the end of the round. 
 

2. Reinforce action works like this:

- You may only perform the reinforce action if you have no reinforce tokens 

- (everything else is the same, pick an arc to reinforce, it prevents 1 damage in that arc but always let at least 1 damage through, etc). 

- During the end phase, you may choose to remove 1 reinforce token. 

(obviously points would have to be adjusted on some ships in order to balance it out)

And then I would change Angled Deflectors to work like so:

Add a white Reinforce action to your action bar. Whenever you perform a reinforce action, you must spend 1 shield or the action fails. Whenever you remove a reinforce token, recover 1 shield. 

I like this. I suppose they could errata the token to not be green anymore and new ships would come with blue cardboard after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Angled Deflectors:  At activation you may spend 1 shield to recover up to 3 charges; you must select front or rear.  You must spend a charge any time reinforce would trigger and gain the effect of reinforce. 

Starts with 0 charges.  Maybe place the charges on the applicable arc. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

(I’m surprised @Wazat hasn’t weighed in yet, he has strong opinions on reinforce and Angled Deflectors.)

As a few others have pointed out, Reinforce in 2.0 is lackluster at best and Angled Deflectors is straight up hot garbage. It wouldn’t be worthwhile even at 0 points. Think about it, for it to be worthwhile you’d have to prevent at least 1 damage with it just to make up for the cost of losing a shield. But wait, it also takes an action to use, so you’d have to prevent probably 2-3 damage to make up for the action cost. But now, compare taking the reinforce action to simply taking a focus/calculate action, which every ship can already do for free anyway, plus focus/calculate can be used for offense if needed and they work if the attacker is coming at you from a different angle than you predicted. 
 

So basically, AD would have to prevent at least 3+ damage per game to be worth taking, even at 0 points. Go ahead and fly a ship with reinforce one game and track how much damage you prevent with reinforce. Even the Ghost or Decimator struggles to prevent more than 3 damage a game with reinforce, but a ship with half as much health as they have? Fat chance. 
 

Personally, I think reinforce should have been done like this:

1. Reinforce tokens are blue, meaning they don’t clear at the end of the round. 
 

2. Reinforce action works like this:

- You may only perform the reinforce action if you have no reinforce tokens 

- (everything else is the same, pick an arc to reinforce, it prevents 1 damage in that arc but always let at least 1 damage through, etc). 

- During the end phase, you may choose to remove 1 reinforce token. 

(obviously points would have to be adjusted on some ships in order to balance it out)

And then I would change Angled Deflectors to work like so:

Add a white Reinforce action to your action bar. Whenever you perform a reinforce action, you must spend 1 shield or the action fails. Whenever you remove a reinforce token, recover 1 shield. 

This is good.  I like it.  
 

I was going to suggest something like passive sensors,  but it stays active until it is used in combat.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with this change is reinforce is very matchup contextual and is an extremely potent mechanic already in the matchups its good in.

A big part of why Boba is so good is the reinforce, for example, and the VCX and Deci in swarm matchups regularly block well over 3 damage.

I wouldn't mind a reinforce rework, but it probably should have the goal of equalizing the matchups a bit and 'squeezing' the expected performance down, but this just universally spikes it up so that vs swarms you just get a truly ludicrous value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...