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Cloaker

Why the next few squadron packs might make or break the game for me

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I play Rebel, Republic, and Empire.  Still have Resistance, but I don't really 'feel' the faction. 

If it weren't for Republic, I wouldn't have anything that gets me excited to buy new things.  This is the first year since I've been playing where I don't think I am going to spend up to my budget for X-wing (V-Wing and Actis will likely be left as gift options for December).  And I'm pretty sure I only hit my budget last year because I picked up epic ships. 

I'm not really bored with my options for casual, I just hop factions for a different feel.  But I do get frustrated sometimes looking at the toys the factions I don't play get.  RZ2 vs RZ1.  Side slip.  Networked calculations.  Heroic.  It would just feel nice to be included in some of the new toys.  And to be excited to purchase things. 

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6 hours ago, feltipern1 said:

What's the right way - in your opinion?  I'm curious because I've been using a Bossk w Jabba/CC/Greedo/Marksmanship build that I've quite enjoyed.  5 turns of basically consequence-free spacegunning?  Works for me!

If it works for you, you're probably flying it right! 

=====

for those who are lost, id first learn how to fly the base chassis:  Trandoshan Slaver. No upgrades or only one or two upgrades. Generally I go with Zuckuss, 4-Lom or E Baffle. These are super cheap and either up its firepower to "more than 3 dice" or improve its mobility, again probably giving you better shots. With large base ships with a stop and no turn around, the trick is definitely to fly almost as slow as you can, I also generally start then at least R3 away from my other ships, if not in the corner 95% of the time. I generally use a combo of stops and straights and slowly ponder into the fight. The first turn I might use the rest of my forces in a non-committal way and try and avoid damage. Once the Slaver gets in, I try to let that become a big problem, let it soak some damage, but keep it moving slowly to keep it relevant. 

Once you're in the thick of things, be well reminded that your 180 are is quite large and use that to your advantage to catch slippery aces. Hence again why I like a slow start from a flank/side. So that the ship just slowly meanders and turns and keep catching people in its arc. 

 

At I2 also you should plan to be blocking some thing. And generally I say, with the I2 Slaver, you should have a 2 point bid, so that you can move first. (Unless you're playing an I6 / highI5 , in which case of course, you'll probably want to move last. ) Note that this dichotomy between moving first and last can often mean victory and defeat, and also is an inherent problem in running the slaver sometimes with aces. 

Generally the ship is a better than 3 dice attack that won't go away. With a MASSIVE area of dead. It doesn't go down easily. 

Avoid using faster moves like 3 hard turn until youre either a master at the ship or you're totally past the fight (which shouldn't happen early). Also don't be the noob that flies their slaver off the board. This happens a lot with noobs, and then they complain about their opponents dice... when they flew their Slaver out of relevant combat within 2 turns and then 6-9 health right off the side of the board. Don't be this dumb. 

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@Blail Blerg & @feltipern1

Any more tips for the YV-666? One of my besties loves the ship and bought it despite not playing X-wing, and is leery about collecting more IRL because they hear its bad and they struggled using it in TTS, so any other insights to help them out would be fantastic.

Edited by dezzmont

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37 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

@Blail Blerg & @feltipern1

Any more tips for the YV-666? One of my besties loves the ship and bought it despite not playing X-wing, and is leery about collecting more IRL because they hear its bad and they struggled using it in TTS, so any other insights to help them out would be fantastic.

Previous comment not enough? 

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Sigh. Just another nail in the OT coffin. As if Force Users / Free Mod faction needed even more. At this point, what can even be done for Rebels to keep up with Aceplay options like this? 

Maybe I'll just focus on judging and OP local when the game boots up for in person play. Just really discouraged right now. Thankfully I get squadrons tomorrow, will be nice to find my locals on there and catch up. 

 

swz79_extreme-maneuvers.png

Edited by Cloaker

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20 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also don't be the noob that flies their slaver off the board. This happens a lot with noobs, and then they complain about their opponents dice... when they flew their Slaver out of relevant combat within 2 turns and then 6-9 health right off the side of the board. Don't be this dumb. 

Or use Moralo Eval!  Then it just doesn't matter.  However, you've got to use that blink off the board - blink on the board trick carefully.

19 hours ago, dezzmont said:

@Blail Blerg & @feltipern1

Any more tips for the YV-666? One of my besties loves the ship and bought it despite not playing X-wing, and is leery about collecting more IRL because they hear its bad and they struggled using it in TTS, so any other insights to help them out would be fantastic.

The YV can be used as an area control piece with that huge 180 degree arc on the front - and on a big base no less - as Blail mentioned in the above post.  It's not going to be very capable of surviving focused attacks for a long time - or of avoiding tricksy aces - so I'd try to keep it a bit locked up in terrain and use it as a defense emplacement with some higher-agility (and perhaps higher initiative) pieces out doing the skirmishing.  The other common use I've seen/heard/used is as a glass cannon.  Send it in to do some softening up before you bring your real end-game piece in.  It's more risky to do it this way, but depending on its wingmates, can be more potent.

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58 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Conversion kits were a mistake. 

Counterpoint: without conversion kits, 2nd Edition would have died immediately.

I do agree with what I believe your sentiment is, in that FFG didn't get to learn off of each wave releasing, so OT ships got the least polish and lack new mechanics. But I will also say that not doing the conversion kits does not mean that they would have learned lessons from the wave iterations. "Fully execute" seems to be a lessen that they forgot after wave 2. Pre-movement reposition is now baked into a chassis. Pilots with high orange and purple keep popping up in factions that already have those. 

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3 hours ago, Chumbalaya said:

Conversion kits were a mistake. 

56 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

They were eurazeo's way to milk the game on the way out and likely sabotaged the game for years

See

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Counterpoint: without conversion kits, 2nd Edition would have died immediately.

Imagine if 40k announced an edition change but said to use any of your old minis you would need to buy new minis for every unit you want to field. No one would play that edition. Doesn't matter how improved it is, it would just not get adopted. X-wing already had a few 2.0 adoption issues even with the dramatic promises FFG Eurazeo made to entice old players in, now imagine if you had to choose between your 300 dollar ship collection and the new rules.

The conversion kit was a completely industry standard practice that absolutely was required to make the transition from 1.0 to 2.0. It was this edition's version of a new Codex for your army. Without the conversion kit, 2.0 wouldn't have been a new edition, it would have been a shockingly greedy cash grab that would have been lambasted online, and would crashed and burned, and rightfully so.

Destroying the perceived value of a pre-existing collection is how games die.

You ever heard of Magi Nation (man I miss that game...), wonder why no one is playing Cardfight Vanguard, or notice Yu-Gi-Oh releases card support for deck archetypes that are almost 20 years old at this point?

This is why. If you want your game to survive, you need to ensure the pre-existing collection maintains perceived value so players don't lose the 'anchoring' effect their investment has in the game. If you feel like your collection has no value, your not continuing your hobby, your deciding if you want to start 'an entirely new game' with the added handicap that you also know your future collection will likely lose value.

 Think about the actual reality of releasing a new edition without a conversion kit. Actually try to think through what that pitch looks like. Its basically FFG saying 'none of your old stuff is legal. Please buy another 300 dollars worth of toy platsic space ships after throwing your old collection out.' Or at the very least 'You now must wait years and years to get access to the pilot cards to play your old ship and if you want to run generics you need to buy as many copies as you want to run so good luck with using your old stuff for that.

And also, the conversion kits don't stop new content for the OT factions coming out. They were literally designed to be incomplete (A huge tell for this is that the Rebel box came with a extra pack for wave 1, which strongly indicates that they were considering releasing 2.0 without Thane, Norra, or Evaan and having them be in the 2.0 boxes) with very few pilots per-ship and lots of design space clearly unused (ex: No A-wing ace, no bomb focused Y-wing) because the logical move is to release new pilots with the new stuff to encourage people to buy one of each re-release (because you only need one of a named pilot anyway), or to release new card packs to keep supporting the faction. The conversion kit isn't limiting anything, they just chose not to go ahead with that.

Obviously they didn't do this. Which was ACTUALLY Eurazeo milking the game on the way out and sabotaging it because it encouraged faster adoption of the game at the expense of souring relationships between X-wing and stores, because it made re-releases sell extremely slowly compared to Conversion Kit+Backstock and made it impossible for waves for OT factions to be 're-release ships+3-4 pilots so every oldschool OT player buys one because they only need a single copy, and we release em all in a round up product like H&A.'

So the damage between stores and reprints are done so we now need to get fancy with the aces packs, which are a less elegant method of releasing new content due to forced bundling. It isn't terrible, but its not ideal, and its likely going to result in a MUCH slower drip of content than if they were constantly releasing re-prints with extra stuff not in the kit.

Edited by dezzmont

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

e: *in the way they were done. I'm not saying conversion kits are inherently bad @dezzmont

Cool! Sorry for misunderstanding!

Isn't the imprecision of text and the fact that our posts are temporally locked as we make them so we can't instantly clarify when someone misunderstands your core point until they lay out their entire argument fun?

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4 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Sigh. Just another nail in the OT coffin. As if Force Users / Free Mod faction needed even more. At this point, what can even be done for Rebels to keep up with Aceplay options like this? 

Maybe I'll just focus on judging and OP local when the game boots up for in person play. Just really discouraged right now. Thankfully I get squadrons tomorrow, will be nice to find my locals on there and catch up. 

 

swz79_extreme-maneuvers.png

Oh. I'm sorry. That does look bad. I mean normal ships can't do anything like that, only Force users.

*Cough*DAREDEVIL*cough*

Oh goodness me, where did that come from...

Edited by Ebak

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4 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Oh. I'm sorry. That does look bad. I mean normal ships can't do anything like that, only Force users.

Yeah its a neat little function specifically for jedi that encourages them to spend force in ways other than passive mods. I don't hate that at all, but again, every little new thing is gunna sting more and more the longer things go on. Its ultimately just an alt-daredevil that is a bit better but with a more strict requirement and likely a greater cost, and it isn't that fantastic on as many ships as one might think (It is you spending way too much force with FTC, Vader can't use it, ect).

I have seen this sorta 'invasive complaining' in other games and it generally is a sign that the situation is at its breaking point and there needs to be some release, because the situation has festered to the point all news not directly addressing the issue (real or perceived) is negative, and people will try to back-fill reasons to complain (ex: The TIE Brute being a 'oh well I guess Empire gets a Y-wing, rip rebels' in the TIE Brute thread).

Edited by dezzmont

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If i had to re-buy ships to play my rather large 1st ed collection, I would have just played 1st ed forever. 

Conversion kits were the only way to keep the large customer base AND get some money from them at the start.

It isn't FFG's fault Disney has given them nothing to make ship-wise for the OT factions. Scum will occasionally get stuff, and obviously with 3 new films and a tv series the ST got loads of stuff (again, not FFG's fault it's mostly all OT reskins but better) and the PT is all new to 2nd ed so they have loads to do (but even that will run out)

Until Lucasfilm gives the OT era actual new ships (like Rogue One did) we are reliant on card packs, but it's just a (granted, rubbish) fact that new ships will always be their priority. BUT the Hotshots pack was awesome and if they carry on with packs like that, but faction-based, we could get some amazing new OT stuff.

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To be fair Dezz, at this point I'd rather they....no...must remain calm and polite.

I'm mostly in the same opinion as @Blail Blerg on this and I've kinda lost my desire to be diplomatic.

Granted, I do want to see release for the OT faction, but they aren't OWED anything given their extensive range. It's only natural that factions with less expansion be more of a focus and there are already whisperings in the works of content coming for Rebel and Empire.

People asking for roadmaps and all this and all that is ridiculous. We don't even know what the next product is beyond November. We've never known beyond the next wave. FFG have even said in the past "There's stuff coming" but they can't be precise about anything because they can't.

My prediction: Rebel players will take that expansion, look at it, sniff at it, and then like bratty child say "It's not enough" before discarding the expansion and writing it off as rubbish. I've already seen this with the TIE Brute expansion and I expect this will be the case with most expansions going forward.

What do they want? New ships, well guess what there's probably one I can think of and that's it. All they have to look forward to is rereleased ships with more pilots. If that's good enough, then goodo, they are going to get that.

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5 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Sigh. Just another nail in the OT coffin. As if Force Users / Free Mod faction needed even more. At this point, what can even be done for Rebels to keep up with Aceplay options like this? 

Maybe I'll just focus on judging and OP local when the game boots up for in person play. Just really discouraged right now. Thankfully I get squadrons tomorrow, will be nice to find my locals on there and catch up. 

 

swz79_extreme-maneuvers.png

Luke (S-Foils provide the required Boost action since they can be equipped either side during squad building) and the Advanced V1s can equip it.

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47 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Luke (S-Foils provide the required Boost action since they can be equipped either side during squad building) and the Advanced V1s can equip it.

yeah. i guess that's something. yeah. 

that's like. 5 out of 257 pilots that I have in Imps/scum/rebels. two whole ships. 

I'm going to go sulk in a corner now.

😰

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18 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

There's plenty of Legends ships, there's no real need to wait for Disney to design a new ship for OT content. Some of them would actually be well received by fans more.

This...is problematic.

It means adding more ships to factions that don't really need them? Rebels already have different ships that are niche in particular areas, they just lack decent pilot options. The TIE Brute was needed because the Empire didn't really have a cannon carrier.

Plus if you start scraping the bottom of the barrel we'll start to get R-41 Starchasers, T-Wings...bleh. Beyond the feeling of 'oh, shiny new stuff' I don't think any of those would bring anything to the game. I'd much rather see new pilots for every single ship the faction has giving those ships more options and we're seeing that a lot with the new factions, most ships tend to have 3 to 4 named pilots. The X-Wing naturally follows this as does the Y-Wing, but then we start getting dry. Even the B-Wing only got one new pilot.

Furthermore, Legends can be an issue in itself. FFG has to get approval from Lucasfilm to use those ships and Lucasfilm may not want them to do it. They can leverage the existing legends ships because they were converted over products, but new ships? I don't see that.

Give us stuff that adds more options for the old stuff. Give me a YT-2400 pack with Iron Squadron. Give me more A-Wing and B-Wing pilots. ****, release a Vanguard and Titan Squadron pack with 4 ships (X-Wing, Y-Wing, A-Wing, U-Wing) (TIE Fighter, TIE Interceptor, TIE Bomber, TIE Reaper) it would be more expensive than the current squadron packs because +1 medium base ship but if each ship chasiss gets a dump of new pilots and new upgrade cards I'd be totally down for that.

Right now, the only new Rebel ship I could see them adding, and it is a loosey goosey interpretation, would be the Stinger Mantis from Jedi Fallen Order.

Edited by Ebak

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Well this is... a lot of pure opinions so not sure how to respond? There's still plenty of design space in the OT factions to explore. Also you pick some of the least popular ships to make a point but there are plenty ships with a larger fan base than T-Wings that would add new options to their faction. 

 

It's not a zero sum, I'd definitely support content expanding pilots for existing ships as the conversion packs feel incomplete. I don't think that will stop FFG from also releasing new ships along side those.

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On 10/5/2020 at 2:01 PM, dezzmont said:

The factions just lack tools

I feel like this is the biggest issue for Rebels. There are a lot of chassis abilities in the other factions, but they feel a bit light for the Rebels. I'd love to see more Astromechs, more Configurations, and some more faction specific or ship specific talents. I really like the idea behind the Starbird Slash, I haven't gotten to play it yet, but it adds something to the A-wing's toolbox. I'm not quite sold on the X-wing talent, it definitely seems like it was intended for T-70s using Overdrive Thrusters, and leaves the T-65 out in the rain while allowing the devs to say, "Hey, we gave T-65s this too!" The idea that the Rebels had to cobble together their fleet from various cells acquiring equipment and ships from different sources makes the concept of various ship configurations as part of their faction identity pretty solid. Well, I think anyway, but that's one Rebel fanboy's 2 credits.

Oh yeah, and since the Republic has like, three (four?) Anakins, how about Wedge Antilles: Red Leader, or Luke Skywalker: Jedi Knight.

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1 hour ago, Ebak said:

It means adding more ships to factions that don't really need them? Rebels already have different ships that are niche in particular areas, they just lack decent pilot options.

etc. etc.

Give us stuff that adds more options for the old stuff.

Agreed. The OT factions don't need new ships, but new options. Hotshots and Aces was a step in the right direction, so hopefully we see that idea revisited, and preferably expanded to include a larger injection of new material for factions that are more or less finished adding ship types, barring new material which is nowhere in sight right now. Give us different config options, Titles that really shake up the base frames capabilities, Pilots who have different stat lines and action bars from the other pilots on their ship of choice, and so on.

Conversion was the right move to keep the game alive, but it had the secondary effect of leaving the factions that started this game with no new material on the horizon once those kits were in hand. It was inevitable that Rebels and Imperials would begin to feel stale in this scenario, so something should be done to correct that. I totally understand where the OP of this thread is coming from when they say they just don't feel like they've been catered to. If you've been playing nothing but Empire and Rebels since 2.0's launch, new content has thus far been limited solely to the card packs and the Tie Brute. It's got to be a bit disheartening to see new factions with tons of new toys coming in, and knowing that you don't really get much apart from a new upgrade every so often that is only obtainable outside of the factions you play. A lot of us, myself included, happily jumped at the chance to collect a new faction. For those that didn't though, well they've been dealing with a long drought.

With any luck the squad packs that were leaked quite some time back are real. If they are real, I hope that they are the first squad packs to feature 3 different ship types in each. If that's the case we could see multiple new pilots for 3 platforms on each of the original factions. There's also the possibility of new configurations, titles, or upgrades for each as well. That could go a long way to revitalizing the OT factions for those who've been feeling the content drought. 

Edited by Hippie Moosen

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On 10/5/2020 at 4:01 PM, buckero0 said:

RAzorcrest is on a big base!?!

That doesn't really make sense. It looks exactly like the G1-A in size and dimensions.

Money grab

they havent said the size theyd do in game but the Razorcrest should absolutely be on a medium base. Unlike some other ships FFG have had to guess at, theyve got full schematics and an hour of screen time for reference.  no way they muck that up

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