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Cloaker

Why the next few squadron packs might make or break the game for me

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2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Hi Hiemfire, talk me off the ledge you know how I roll

Seconding the step back from the game and take a breather suggestion from earlier then. S&V still has a good bit on the horizon, some for certain from The Mandalorian, possibly some from the Kenobi series, and maybe from the Cassian series if it hasn't been canceled, and there is still the possibility for more canon Imp and Reb stuff in the pipe (Mandalorian, Cassian and Kenobi series' are all right around/in the OT era so stuff is bound to crop up in those).

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dwing said:

I really felt the droids getting all the fun stuff, shareing tokens, TLs, droid torps, and funny sideslips. Its seems crazy good and has a lot of fun new elements in just one list.

This is a good point.  Feature Creep and Power Creep are potentially different things.

TIE Aggressor is a great example of how an old faction can get partly revitalized by buffs to an under-performing ship, and how that can spice things up, a little.  I'm glad of it, but there's a limit to how far it can go.

However much they buff X-Wings, they'll never be super exciting.  I don't think they're an "inherently bad spam platform" but just... puts me in the mind of old Peanuts strips.

peanuts-charles-schulz-early-strip.jpg?w

Good Ol' X-Wings... Yes, Sir!  They're the Charlie Brown of ships.

6a0105369e6edf970b01b7c7625f2c970b-400wi

New Factions, however, get new stuff.  Even if balanced, it's shiny and new and does the cool and different stuff with all the promise of 2e.

And so far, there's been little hope given to the original three factions that they'll get in on the action for the fancy new was of playing.  A squadron pack with a bunch of cool stuff that opens up a lot of these new mechanics to the old faction would be quite welcome.  For example, suppose an X-Wing only droid or talent that gave them sideslips.  Non-recurring charges so only two per game, if that, but still.  It'd go a long way towards helping bored OT-Faction players feel like there's hope down the road.

Edited by theBitterFig

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@Cloaker

Rooting for ya, buddy.

Holding out for some decent Scum additions to get me out on the tables again (when we can). 

Rather burnt out on popular Star Wars in general right now... not interested at all in Squadrons. (Bring out the torches, everyone.) Very sceptical of Kenobi and Cassian shows to bring anything truly memorable to my Star Wars experience. 

Really, really hoping to be drawn in by Mando s2 with a compelling story and meaningful characters without humdrum lore cameo graffiti. 

Just to throw even more oil on this: 

I think Luke Gunner, as a unique and faction locked card, is not a blunder at all, especially in light of Ensnare. I actually like the card a lot and LOLd when I heard about some UK guys that were winning with him several waves back. 

And Rebel squad building is way more interesting to me than Resistance.

Just because a faction has more fancy upgrades doesn't mean they actually have real choices in squad building...it's frustrated me so bad over the last 2 years that I've nearly sold off my Resistance just to get them off my mind. 

Resistance has a couple things that work well, and a giant heap of things safely in the kitchen table meta.

Rebels may have a lower combo ceiling, but their squadbuilding floor is so much higher than Resistance. 

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Just now, theBitterFig said:

However much they buff X-Wings, they'll never be super exciting. 

I disagree. There are lots of ways to make X-wings exciting via buffs (specifically by adding good upgrades for the ship), by focusing on new upgrades that enhance the upper end power of the ship.

Conversely, 5X just straight up isn't a very good list (because it loses to... essentially every other jousting list), which means at this price point the X-wing isn't good to spam. And if it goes lower UUXXX suddenly exists, and I don't think anyone wants that.

So it isn't great to spam now, and it can't go lower without enabling stuff that shouldn't be enabled, so it feels very fair to say 'It isn't a good spam platform' because if it is locked into that role of being 'that ship you just take with blue squad' its going to be a bad ship, either in terms of being mechanically weak, or creating a bad metagame.

 

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There is a lot of truth to the OT feelings on this matter and that the new factions are getting all the shiny new stuff - AND it is the old 1.0 players fault! They are to blame that we cant have shiny new things!! Shame! 
 

Sorry, joke aside, but it is kind of true. The choice of releasing all 1.0 content in the conversionkits are the reason the OT factions had to be "locked in at that point" and now feel stale. Interstingly this happened even in 1.0, where the new fang-fighter got the Talon-roll, the Kimogila the Bulls-eye, back then the x-wing started to feel stale. Actually FFG revitalized a lot of the "old" ships in their 2.0 rerelease, but this blessing have now trapped them in the past. Had they not done that they could have keept rereleasing the OT faction and keep the enevitable feature creep balanced among factions. Of course had they not released the conversionkit there would have been a mass exodus and the game would have died, so there is that. 
 

Cardpacks have been mentioned in this thread as a solution, and I dont agree. Cardpacks have practically the same intellectual design-effort,cost, and game-balance-effort as building a regular expasion, but players are not willing to pay the same price for a box of cards as they are going to for a box with a mini. 
 

Also am I the only old 1.0 player that is actually dissapointed that none of the rereleases of 1.0 in 2.0 contain new pilots? I know this was a promise FFG made, but I think the time is now to include new pilots and upgrades in those rereleases, to give the OT factions access to all the new shiny mechanisms, AND increase sales from the rereleases, both which I think would be healthy for the game. 

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6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

This is a good point.  Feature Creep and Power Creep are potentially different things.

TIE Aggressor is a great example of how an old faction can get partly revitalized by buffs to an under-performing ship, and how that can spice things up, a little.  I'm glad of it, but there's a limit to how far it can go.

However much they buff X-Wings, they'll never be super exciting.  I don't think they're an "inherently bad spam platform" but just... puts me in the mind of old Peanuts strips.

peanuts-charles-schulz-early-strip.jpg?w

Good Ol' X-Wings... Yes, Sir!  They're the Charlie Brown of ships.

6a0105369e6edf970b01b7c7625f2c970b-400wi

New Factions, however, get new stuff.  Even if balanced, it's shiny and new and does the cool and different stuff with all the promise of 2e.

And so far, there's been little hope given to the original three factions that they'll get in on the action for the fancy new was of playing.  A squadron pack with a bunch of cool stuff that opens up a lot of these new mechanics to the old faction would be quite welcome.  For example, suppose an X-Wing only droid or talent that gave them sideslips.  Non-recurring charges so only two per game, if that, but still.  It'd go a long way towards helping bored OT-Faction players feel like there's hope down the road.

Feature creep is a good way to describe it, our game came out close, but I was constantly up again almost full mods, a list that could castle in a corner, just red 0, sideslip blue, red 0, sideslip continue. Had torps, concussion bombs and buzzdroids and was in total control of where the combat took place. But I do think there is some good old powercreep in the droids gunship to, compare DSG-047  to Oddball in a V-19. DSG gets a TL just for shooting at something and in a droid gunship list, that is free predator for everyone, no need for Bulls eye arc or anything, and that is for only 4 points more, with shields and better dial.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

Had they not done that they could have keept rereleasing the OT faction and keep the enevitable feature creep balanced among factions

There is no way the game would have survived without a conversion kit. The Conversion Kit isn't stopping them from fixing the core problems with the OT factions, because most of the factions from the kit aren't baked in or fully realized. I would argue that only Imp could be considered close. The kit definitely locks the basics of the faction in, but it doesn't stop any expansion on them in future cardboard sets.

Most games have core sets and core identities the factions are based around yet manage to iterate on them. 40k manages to keep its armies fresh despite having a 'conversion kit' in the form of the current edition's codex which always contains updates for the last edition, because... they release new content. MTG manages to do just fine despite having cards that will literally never go away because they are too vital to a given color and re-releases a core set filled with such cards every year.

Collection devaluation is the main reason collectable games fail: when players feel like their existing investment holds no value and thus they don't have a 'sunk cost' invested into the game anymore. You think power creep in a new set making all the old cards inefficient and bad is a good way to kill a fledgling game? Try telling people their 300 dollar collection of plastic is now trash they can't use in your new edition and see how razzed they would be to hop on board!

The problem isn't the kits. The problem is OT factions getting no content at all for 2 years. It isn't like they tried their darndest to help support OT and the mechanics in the kits are too limiting, or every new ship has had a mechanic as radical as slips... its just they... literally haven't gotten anything new. The Kits were clearly not intended to put the factions to a 'feature complete' state, but they haven't been touched (for the most part, H&A exists but its meta impact was basically non-existent because its too little at one time to move the dial) for the entire history of 2.0. Feature creep is a thing, sure, and its sorta natural... but a really good way to FORCE it to happen is to just... not support 3 of your 7 factions. Like imagine if MTG just didn't print new Green or Red cards for 2 years, and when asked about it they just pointed to the core sets of those years. That is sorta the situation we are in.

Quote

but players are not willing to pay the same price for a box of cards as they are going to for a box with a mini

Hotshots and Aces sold out for basically 16 legitimately new cards, a few cards that were in packs that came out in the waves but not the conversion kit, and reprints of stuff that only was in the kit for most factions, and it cost 30-40 dollars on release depending on where you got it. It was also an absurdly popular product despite its lack of content (though I think H&A 2 would need to do a lil more, or be faction specific).

So for a faction specific pack? Based on how much we know X-wing players will play for cardboard? Shoot, a rebel pack with 20 new cards (maybe 10 pilots, and 2 of 10 different upgrades) could probably get away with charging 40.

1 hour ago, Sciencius said:

Also am I the only old 1.0 player that is actually dissapointed that none of the rereleases of 1.0 in 2.0 contain new pilots? I know this was a promise FFG made, but I think the time is now to include new pilots and upgrades in those rereleases, to give the OT factions access to all the new shiny mechanisms, AND increase sales from the rereleases, both which I think would be healthy for the game. 

It seems like they are doing a weird hybrid with the squad packs? Like they went out of their way to make it so you could get just the CC content in the 'singles' and then you get the squad pack to get the new stuff. I can see the logics from the business side and definitely am ok with that if at some point the squad pack content comes out in a hotshots and aces style collection. I understand that I should be expected to subsidize new sculpts a bit. 

Otherwise your starting to compare to 40k (which gives new content for old stuff for free mid edition, even though actual models are more expensive), rather than MTG, which is again what X-wing sorta strives to be in terms of price to play.

Edited by dezzmont

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7 hours ago, Bucknife said:

 

Really, really hoping to be drawn in by Mando s2 with a compelling story and meaningful characters without humdrum lore cameo graffiti. 

Thank you. Got Disney+ for "free" for a year thanks to a purchase, decided to check out this SW series that folks were buzzing about. Wife and I didn't finish the first season. Felt like the TV equivalent of a Young Adult book: bits and bobs, but no depth or real grit.

So, bring on the torches. 😎

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2 hours ago, dezzmont said:

no content at all for 2 years.[...]
its just they... literally haven't gotten anything new.[...]
H&A exists

Leia is relevant. So are K2SO and sfoils for bwings. Those were three great additions from H&A which see a lot of play.

More importantly, that misses the relevant forest for some few trees. The huge rosters of OT factions allow constantly new lists. We have quad wookies, Dash, Ewings, and VCXs now. That was unthinkable a year ago. 

What OT factions get is constantly new content without the need to buy it. That's pretty good, all you need is an open mind.

New in this case means of course playable. That might be less exciting, I understand that. But let's not pretend that the actual options for Rebels and by extension OT factions remained stale and stable in the past 2 years.

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4 hours ago, Sciencius said:

Also am I the only old 1.0 player that is actually dissapointed that none of the rereleases of 1.0 in 2.0 contain new pilots? I know this was a promise FFG made, but I think the time is now to include new pilots and upgrades in those rereleases, to give the OT factions access to all the new shiny mechanisms, AND increase sales from the rereleases, both which I think would be healthy for the game. 

It’s a tough call: the game needed to have conversion kits or the whole thing would have come down as none of us would re-buy all our ships. That is certain.

I’m less sure about this - I know I’d be exceedingly salty if I had to buy yet another Falcon for the Leia pilot. On the other hand, I’d have been OK with some of the small base ships, particularly if they also had different colors. I picked up a rerelease of the Y for the updated sculpt and the Rz1 for the paint, for example. If extra pilots had been there, just that much cooler.

Then again; that’s what these squad packs are going to be: throw some ships together, change the paint scheme, and add a few pilots and some new tricks. So maybe I’m ok with everything except how long it took ffg to recognize the criticality of squadron packs?

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1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

It’s a tough call: the game needed to have conversion kits or the whole thing would have come down as none of us would re-buy all our ships. That is certain.

I’m less sure about this - I know I’d be exceedingly salty if I had to buy yet another Falcon for the Leia pilot. On the other hand, I’d have been OK with some of the small base ships, particularly if they also had different colors. I picked up a rerelease of the Y for the updated sculpt and the Rz1 for the paint, for example. If extra pilots had been there, just that much cooler.

Then again; that’s what these squad packs are going to be: throw some ships together, change the paint scheme, and add a few pilots and some new tricks. So maybe I’m ok with everything except how long it took ffg to recognize the criticality of squadron packs?

I'm with you here. Had they not done conversion kits, I wouldn't have picked up 2.0. I spent too much on 1st ed stuff I didn't play, and the kits (and the promise of not having to rebuy ships to get new upgrades/pilots) gave me the confidence to return to the game. I'm fine with squadron packs, as they offer a good price point (three ships for the price of two!), serve as an excellent jumping on point for a faction (kinda the point with the Republic/Separatist packs, but Heralds of Hope looks to be doing the same) while allowing FFG to fulfil that early promise while providing new pilots and stuff.

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18 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Guys, you prob fly the YV wrong. I mean no offense: most ppl don't understand it. I've been playing Lambda and YV for years, I urge to try it again. YV recently got a point reduction its an amazing ship. 

 

What's the right way - in your opinion?  I'm curious because I've been using a Bossk w Jabba/CC/Greedo/Marksmanship build that I've quite enjoyed.  5 turns of basically consequence-free spacegunning?  Works for me!

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3 hours ago, Spinland said:

Wife and I didn't finish the first season. Felt like the TV equivalent of a Young Adult book: bits and bobs, but no depth or real grit.

I totally get this. I enjoyed Mandalorian, but much of it felt a little lite. The fluff/filler is incredibly noticeable and detracts from the overall quality, but the non-fluff/filler is very good.

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14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I totally get this. I enjoyed Mandalorian, but much of it felt a little lite. The fluff/filler is incredibly noticeable and detracts from the overall quality, but the non-fluff/filler is very good.

Yeah; it did have its moments, but they weren't numerous enough to hold the show together for us. I might go back some day and watch the rest of it on my tablet, solo, but as a shared experience it just didn't measure up.  Everyone's tastes are different, of course. 🍺

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2 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

It’s a tough call: the game needed to have conversion kits or the whole thing would have come down as none of us would re-buy all our ships. That is certain.

I’m less sure about this - I know I’d be exceedingly salty if I had to buy yet another Falcon for the Leia pilot. On the other hand, I’d have been OK with some of the small base ships, particularly if they also had different colors. I picked up a rerelease of the Y for the updated sculpt and the Rz1 for the paint, for example. If extra pilots had been there, just that much cooler.

Then again; that’s what these squad packs are going to be: throw some ships together, change the paint scheme, and add a few pilots and some new tricks. So maybe I’m ok with everything except how long it took ffg to recognize the criticality of squadron packs?

The answer is the old Improv canard of "Yes, and!"

New pilots I can kinda understand.  Imagine, however, if the B-Wing Expansion and Hotshots and Aces came out at the same time, and both had Gina and S-Foils and Autoblasters.

The commitment to "nothing new in the expansions" is kind of FFG shooting itself in the foot.  B-Wing came out at the same time as TIE/sf and TIE Silencer, but also Autoblasters, Plasma Torpedoes, and Passive Sensors.  But these reprint ships didn't contain new upgrades *from the same wave* because of an unthinking "we said we wouldn't put new stuff in" rather than using common sense.  It's far less important to stick to the letter of a promise (and we all know that promises from corporations are worth less than zero) than the intent behind it.  The way to get there is with more options.

Passive Sensors in the TIE/sf reprint wouldn't have been "I have to buy the useless expansion to get the upgrade" since the N-1 and Hyena and (ideally) B-Wing would contain it.  Add in confidence in frequent upgrade packs on the horizon, and that gives a primarily First Order player a lot of options.  Status quo was still "have to buy a useless ship to get the upgrade" but they had to buy a ship in a faction they didn't play, rather than a double of a ship they did play.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Leia is relevant. So are K2SO and sfoils for bwings. Those were three great additions from H&A which see a lot of play.

More importantly, that misses the relevant forest for some few trees. The huge rosters of OT factions allow constantly new lists. We have quad wookies, Dash, Ewings, and VCXs now. That was unthinkable a year ago. 

This is right, but only for some players.

Wookiees and Dash and E-Wings and VCX have gotten better, but they haven't gotten new.  There's folks who've been flying non-competitive Ghost or E-Wing lists just because they like trying strange jank.  Meanwhile, there's very little truly new an E-Wing can do.  They're better because they're cheaper, but the core of what they do is essentially the same.

It's good that FFG is doing this, but it's going to be more relevant to competitive X-Wing than casual X-Wing.  Casual Rebels players are going to have the feeling that their faction is old, and in a lot of the ways that matter to casual players, they're also completely correct.

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38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's good that FFG is doing this, but it's going to be more relevant to competitive X-Wing than casual X-Wing.  Casual Rebels players are going to have the feeling that their faction is old, and in a lot of the ways that matter to casual players, they're also completely correct.

That's a fair point.

In that case, I don't understand how [massive amount of ships and pilots] doesn't compensate [lack of new pilots/ships]. The possible combinations - if you don't care about strength of a list - are immense!

So either people complaining play A LOT more than me and don't have new combinations left, or the complaints are very hard to understand for me because they have a lot more pilots left to put on the table than they admit.

To mention it, I don't acknowledge it as reason if you don't like a ship. I also don't like  the Tie/rb or fireball or couch or torrents or nantex or hmp gunship or infiltrator, even if they are new. Because they are still options, and I have to accept that.

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Posted (edited)

I think the issue with the conversion kits is that they are really just a revision of first edition. They just gave everything a second edition coat of paint and patched up the broken bits. They are not specifically second edition designed cards. They are an early draft of what is now second edition.

Resistance some and First Order some but especially Galactic Republic and Separatists are Second Edition Factions. They haven't particularly given Rebels, or Scum second edition stuff. Empire seems to be working but then they took away all the first edition stuff that took them out of the game. But that stuff was the large base 360 turrets of Rebels and Scum. 

It isn't just no new OT stuff since the start of second edition it is no new stuff to even start second edition. 

 

Edited by Frimmel

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I don't acknowledge it as reason if you don't like a ship. I also don't like  the Tie/rb or fireball or couch or torrents or nantex or hmp gunship or infiltrator, even if they are new. Because they are still options, and I have to accept that.

Dragoon, I hear your points. 

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asserting that people aren't allowed to feel upset about squad building boredom and competitive limitations if they aren't willing to embrace the entire scope of the game - all ships from all factions.  

There are a lot of serious, analytical competitive players that have felt that way since before you came to the forums or X-Wing... And that is totally okay. 

It is important to understand, however, that it isn't realistic to assume that everyone in this conversation is playing the game for the same reasons with the same objectives. It isn't fair to expect that or demand that of everyone who wants to share their frustrations, either. 

Helpful support for a player with faction limitations - whatever their reasons - might require a more holistic approach. 

Again, I understand your frustration with players that vocalize emotions as if they are objective truth - that happens a lot in our game. 

But just realize that it isn't always malicious.

Edited by Bucknife

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14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Again, I understand your frustration with players that vocalize emotions as if they are objective truth - that happens a lot in our game. 

But just realize that it isn't always malicious

That's likely a byproduct of the written exchange. I'm optimistic that it wouldn't come across that way if we talked in person :)

15 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're asserting that people aren't allowed to feel upset about squad building boredom and competitive limitations if they aren't willing to embrace the entire scope of the game - all ships from all factions.  

Not quite, no. Let me rephrase that:

I don't accept that there is a relevant difference between a PT/ST only player who doesn't like the new things and an OT player who doesn't like his vast majority of options. Because both these hypothetical players cannot play something they like, and/or got bored by the things they do like.

No need for all factions, though I've been an early advocate of 2.0 as a 2-3 faction game and I stand by that. Branch out, try something new! Figure out why others like a faction. Your favorite playstyle is 100% shared by ships in at least one other faction, so give those a try!

21 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

It is important to understand, however, that it isn't realistic to assume that everyone in this conversation is playing the game for the same reasons with the same objectives. It isn't fair to expect that or demand that of everyone who wants to share their frustrations, either. 

Good point. That's why I also asked whether Cloaker cared about the facts despite pretty clearly rationalizing a feeling. @dezzmont continued with inaccurate or outright false statements and I think it's important to push back because it is important for them to figure out their actual problem. And that clearly isn't lack of options in OT factions.

24 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Helpful support for a player with faction limitations - whatever their reasons - might require a more holistic approach. 

That's a team effort ;)

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  • I'm thinking also about Chinese Food vs Thai Food.  Maybe this is a US regional comparison that won't make sense to folks in other countries.
  • Chinese food in most of the US (outside of large cities with large Chinese populations) is very 60s or 70s.  There's a style of sweet-and-sour chicken with a very thick bright red sauce, of pork fried rice that's very dark with soy sauce, a style of fried egg rolls with cabbage and meat that seems like it hasn't really changed in 50 years.
  • Thai restaurants didn't really catch on in small-to-medium towns until like the 90s, and tastes in food had changed.  Folks want fresher vegetables, less plasticy sauces, more vibrant spices.
  • This doesn't illustrate a difference between "authentic" Thai or Chinese food, but more of a difference in the culinary meta of the US when these restaurants started to become widely popular.
  • To that end, Rebels are kind of "fixed" in the conversion kit versions (which @Frimmel points out are frequently just slightly changed 1e ships), none of the new maneuver types, few ship abilities that do anything unusual, no strain or deplete tricks.
2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

To mention it, I don't acknowledge it as reason if you don't like a ship. I also don't like  the Tie/rb or fireball or couch or torrents or nantex or hmp gunship or infiltrator, even if they are new. Because they are still options, and I have to accept that.

This is fair, but... if a CIS player doesn't like the HMP, they also know they're going to get another release in 6 months and maybe they'll like that better.  Folks who didn't like the Nantex knew the Tri-Fighter (although it hadn't been announced at that time) was almost surely coming.  Don't like the Transport and Fireball?  Well, Resistance will almost surely get the T-85 eventually, and probably more stuff.  The factions aren't finished, aren't over.

I think what a lot of Rebel players want is knowledge that things aren't over.  That they'll get more than 3 new pilots and 2 new upgrades in the next year.  Hence the hope for more Hotshots and Aces, and a lot of folks invested in the rumors of a "Phoenix Squadron" pack, which could add a substantial number of new pilots.  Particularly to the A-Wing--a fan favorite Rebel ship which has two good pilots... but only two.

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

The factions aren't finished, aren't over.

I'll pick up your larger point below, but I want to point to my hopefully clarifying reply to Bucknife above. A hypothetical player could be locked into Falcon and T70, or /vn and /ba and hate all other resistance/fo stuff, including future releases for let's say 2+ years.

Because my overarching point is that the problem is exactly what you raise:

39 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I think what a lot of Rebel players want is knowledge that things aren't over.

the OT players want the excitement of something new. The social experience of looking forward to something, to share opinions, to spot new abilities, decipher pixelated text, listen to podcasts and read blogposts about the new things - instead of sulking on the sidelines.

I understand that.

And there are just three options in my opinion:

1. Wait and hope for the OT aces packs. This is a hard one as FFG is notoriously bad in communicating. It's frustrating for more than just yourself.

2. Get a second faction with new stuff. Seriously, do this! I don't understand how someone can play rebels and dislike resistance, or play imps and disregard FO. If you are scum only then it depends what part of scum you like. This option seems so obvious and helpful that I honestly don't understand why someone wouldn't.

3. Leave the game for now. It is a variation of 1. It's the perfect moment for most, anyway. Xwing isn't all there is. Depending on your funtypes you might try a P&P, video games, sports, reading, join a club, whatever hobby seems feasible to fill your time with more joy. I have at least 8 hobbies, depending on how you count. That makes pauses really easy.
And maybe this lets someone realize that Xwing is just a fun game.

 

e: tagging @Cloaker, @dezzmont and @Bucknife if that works in an edit

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Tugboats and StarVipers are exactly what you’re looking for, with their unique mechanics.  Unfortunately, they were released two years ago in the conversion kits, so they don’t grab your attention like new releases.

The grass is always greener and all that.

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25 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

1. Wait and hope for the OT aces packs. This is a hard one as FFG is notoriously bad in communicating. It's frustrating for more than just yourself.

Part of the frustrating thing is that... it doesn't need to be this way.  They could just give us more of a roadmap.  Will they?  *shrug*  And fact is they could is frustrating.  Like the frequently weak rules wordings...

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7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Leia is relevant. So are K2SO and sfoils for bwings. Those were three great additions from H&A which see a lot of play.

Overall, I am sticking by the fact that H&A was a very low impact box based on the fact none of the options you mentioned besides B-wing S-foils broke even 20 usages in tournaments.

This is fine, because a lot of the options lay groundwork for archetypes that could be super interesting (Crew K-2SO especially in a hypothetical 'stress games' list. Shame the main thing that would want him is... pilot K-2SO), and some things like S-foils were important not because they are good now but allow rebels to better leap on new stuff. I feel like me saying 'it didn't make a meta impact' came across as a more damning condemnation than it was meant to be.

H&A was still really popular among casual players, and those options are still watched (Well... some of them. I am not hopeful for Alexander or Moonsong having a future, they strike me as very Leevan like, though if stress management becomes part of Rebel's 'color pie AND Moonsong eats a bit of a price drop we might see something...) despite their lack of power because novelty is super desired right now.

It feels like a fine step 1`, but without knowing if a step 2 is on the horizon it feels... weird. Like K-2SO is waiting for some new pilots that are intended to get bonuses doing blues or who get bonuses when stressed coming in H&A 2 that... never got released.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I think what a lot of Rebel players want is knowledge that things aren't over.  That they'll get more than 3 new pilots and 2 new upgrades in the next year.  Hence the hope for more Hotshots and Aces, and a lot of folks invested in the rumors of a "Phoenix Squadron" pack, which could add a substantial number of new pilots.  Particularly to the A-Wing--a fan favorite Rebel ship which has two good pilots... but only two.

This! This so bad! All of my this!

We can do in depth analysis of what is actually viable and new, or if the faction is old and busted, but this is such an emotive problem that it doesn't really make sense to do that unless its to try to figure out why attempts to solve the problem aren't working (assuming most OT players feel this way, obviously, but I think its been pretty established there are a lot of grumpy OT players from stuff like the TIE Brute thread getting invaded by em).

I logically know a new sensor could totally change how the B, U, or E wing works even if it isn't in a rebel specific ship pack, especially with price changes, but that is unlikely to manifest without an active effort to support rebels like how the S-foils support future cannons on the B-wing despite not being good now. But it feels like that is the opposite of what FFG is doing with lots of little things.

Like sure, the feels are stupid, but seeing Baron of the empire go down but the A-wing not makes that little Sith whisper go off in the back of your head saying 'There is nothing new coming, and they will continue to ignore your suffering. They care not to give you new options to buy, nor to make options that matter to you good.' This is why there is a lot of focus on talking about card packs: A lot of the issues are about OT players not even having low expectations, but no expectations at all, which if you know anything about marketing is worse. Simply announcing a new annual product type in the vein of H&A and committing too (or at least attempting to commit to) a product that contains new cards for every faction every year would do SO MUCH.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

And there are just three options in my opinion:

Tag works in the edit!

My point is going to be this: Yes, currently we have those 3 options (Well, actually we have a 4th, complain about it and make it known to FFG that given these options we are likely to take 3, which FFG really doesn't want), but you... really don't want these to be our 3 options. And you don't want it to be either.

Option 1 is a no go. The fact players are invading the announcement threads of other factions releases to complain indicates that maybe people aren't going to wait forever and they are going to fire the gun on 2 or 3. We should really discount that because if it was something people were happy to do then we wouldn't be having this convo.

2 is unlikely. The entire reason to have factions in games (from a marketing perspective, which like it or not low key matters more in a lot of ways for the purposes of this convo) is to create a strong bond between your collection and you. This is important, because having an attachment to your existing collection in a collectable game makes you desire to expand it, and your collection losing perceived value is the main reason people leave these games. So if a player values a faction identity a lot (which, again, is part of the goal), then being told they need to abandon it to continue collecting in a collectable game is very likely to be uncussesful.

Option 3 is doomsday. We unironically don't want this. You ever see a clan exodus from a local scene in L5R? I have, its not pretty. We really don't want that because it signals that the scene is going to collapse in a domino effect. On top of that, people tend to not take 'breaks' from collectable games. Part of the model is that you want it to be habitual, because once people break the habit they are far less likely to continue. Scummy usage of addictive behavior to sell a toy? Sure, but its the industry standard and FFG didn't invent it, so lets ignore the moral implications and recognize that we already have a really big danger of a lot of players not coming back due to COVID creating a massive discontinuity. Hence why they rushed out a solo play variant ASAP and are being chill about online tournaments despite that big announcement that TTS and Vassal were no-bueno: Gotta keep people flippin those dials about.

34 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Part of the frustrating thing is that... it doesn't need to be this way.  They could just give us more of a roadmap.  Will they?  *shrug*  And fact is they could is frustrating.  Like the frequently weak rules wordings...

Yeah. One of the interesting things is new cards probably are actually less desired than the knowledge of new cards. A genre of product being announced that offers the promise of a faster rate of getting 'new' cards without buying plastic you don't want, along with new options, would probably solve this issue right away.

You have no idea how low my standards are right now. Being told I could buy 6 new cards and reprints of everything in the waves up till now for like 25 bucks? I would take it. I would be ashamed, but I would happily buy that. 

****, I would buy a 'conversion kit 2.0' that had just 1-2 new pilots for a bunch of under-supported ships and maybe a new faction talent or two, some droids, whatever, for 40 or 50.

A lot of this is less 'I don't want to pay a lot of money for these cards' and more 'buying plastic I know I won't use makes me feel bad in an irrational manner.' If the aces packs are 40, I would probably gladly pay 25-30 bucks for all the cards in them without the ships, as weird as that is, because buying a ship I know I won't use that often 'feels' wasteful. This is actually a known thing in marketing, customers see a utility in being able to avoid bundles they don't want just as often as they see value in buying bundles that make them consume more than they normally would. It is a balancing act.

That said I don't want to slam those packs too much. They actually do a good job of making jumping into a new faction enticing for someone curious about them. Heroes of Hope is probably gunna be the thing that gets me to actually start on Resistance. 

Edited by dezzmont
Getting rid of too many words

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7 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

My point is going to be this: Yes, currently we have those 3 options (Well, actually we have a 4th, complain about it and make it known to FFG that given these options we are likely to take 3, which FFG really doesn't want), but you... really don't want these to be our 3 options. And you don't want it to be either.

Option 1 is a no go. The fact players are invading the announcement threads of other factions releases to complain indicates that maybe people aren't going to wait forever and they are going to fire the gun on 2 or 3.

Heh, I thought about calling it "wait & complain". I think that 4th is why option 1 isn't only frustrating for the one waiting :)

8 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

2 is unlikely. The entire reason to have factions in games (from a marketing perspective, which like it or not low key matters more in a lot of ways for the purposes of this convo) is to create a strong bond between your collection and you. This is important, because having an attachment to your existing collection in a collectable game makes you desire to expand it, and your collection losing perceived value is the main reason people leave these games. So if a player values a faction identity a lot (which, again, is part of the goal), then being told they need to abandon it to continue collecting in a collectable game is very likely to be uncussesful.

This is something I simply don't get, on no level. There are different cases:

  • 2-3 OTs only: It does not matter if you are an "OT only" or "Re-factions only" person with respect to faction loyalty and your argument about collectables - it's 2-3 factions and you could have one of them with new stuff
  • single OT only: I don't understand how adding a second faction reduces desire to expand when that second faction actually allows you to expand in the first place.

Diversity adds often up to more than just the sum of the parts. Playing a second faction has so many benefits. And if travelling taught me one thing it's what Fontane once said, loosely translated: "Not until we leave home can we truly appreciate it." In the same sense, a second faction will let you appreciate the first even more.

But above all, if a new faction were to solve the problem, would that not be worth it?

31 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Option 3 is doomsday. We unironically don't want this. You ever see a clan exodus from a local scene in L5R? I have, its not pretty. We really don't want that because it signals that the scene is going to collapse in a domino effect. On top of that, people tend to not take 'breaks' from collectable games. Part of the model is that you want it to be habitual, because once people break the habit they are far less likely to continue. Scummy usage of addictive behavior to sell a toy? Sure, but its the industry standard and FFG didn't invent it, so lets ignore the moral implications and recognize that we already have a really big danger of a lot of players not coming back due to COVID creating a massive discontinuity. Hence why they rushed out a solo play variant ASAP and are being chill about online tournaments despite that big announcement that TTS and Vassal were no-bueno: Gotta keep people flippin those dials about.

I think we are mixing perspectives here. For an individual player who might be reading along and nodding in agreement with @Cloaker, leaving (temporarily or for good) is very likely the next best option after getting into a second faction. We don't know if or when FFG will release more content for OT factions. And we can't expect them to lay out plans of future expansions because they never did that before, not long term.

You are right that the overall community prefers if as many people as possible stay, and that Covid makes that even more important right now. However, I disagree that some few, disillusioned OT-only players leaving will cause the game to end. There are still all those from the other factions or those playing multiple factions - and that is after we ignore all the OT faction players who are not troubled my lack of new content.

 

So in summary I disagree with your dismissals of points 2+3. I don't really want to go into the H&A or lack of option discussion because I see no common ground. OT factions have factually more at their disposal than the other 4 factions. That's just fact. If they lack options then everything lacks options. But as mentioned that wasn't the point anyway. The underlying reason is not the options but the lack of novelty (for the effects mentioned), and no number of permutations will solve that.

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