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Cloaker

Why the next few squadron packs might make or break the game for me

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Posted (edited)

It's Monday, and I am reflecting on the most favorite miniatures game I've ever played. I'm an OT kid and specialize only in Scum, Imperials and Rebels. I have no hate for the prequel trilogy or the sequels, and there are some things I find very entertaining about all the films, and their representation of chassis and abilities and design mechanics in the game. I am delighted that they expanded faction identities in second edition. It gave the game a whole new level of excitement and accessibility to recruit new players after some minor player attrition in the transition to 2.0. But I take pride in representing the OTs. And I confess, I'm growing more and more disenchanted in the execution and support of creating more diverse and equitably available options for Rebels, Imperials, and Scum chassis. 

I know there are many who will argue that there is ample elements to construct competitive squads. This post isn't about that. I've been able to field some good lists, some more fun than others. 

No, this post is just petty and frustrated old Cloaker. I'm jealous and weary of seeing all the cool stuff the other factions get. Slideslips, Tactical Relays, multiple factional unique talents, an abundance of chassis with secondary arcs to increase time on target, an embarrassment of riches in terms of pilots to choose from, an array of force and calculate action economies, some sleek new paintjobs, and just scores of desirable upgrades that could maybe even help my fleets have a bit more advantage, if I didn't have to pay for excess materials out of faction for. 

I know the game needs to sell in order to survive. I can so much appreciate that. And I've done my part, trying to promote sales at my FLGS when we were open, and spending hours with new players locally and at home. Although I do miss my local community players greatly, I'm probably getting in 3-4 games a week at home with close friends and family, pretty cool I suppose overall and I know I should just take solace in that. 

But I am just bummed right now. Because there's a part of me, the dark side, that is whispering in my ear that the next few squadron packs; Phoenix Cell, Skystrike Academy, and Fugitives/Collaborators, might not deliver enough to correct the missteps FFG has made in the OTs. A few random thoughts on the shortfalls for OTs;

Rebels

1) The lack of adequate competitive filler in a meta that has drifted towards higher ship counts. Looking at purely second edition releases, when your cheapest ship is 29 points, it just pales in comparison to what all of the other factions have. 

2) Said ship is the RZ-1 A-Wing, which has 2 Aces to the Resistance's eventual 10. That sentence is just stunning to type. And how the T-70 got to keep bullseye primary with closed s-foils and the t-65 didn't? Well, that's just confounding.

3) Utility options, like Astromechs for example, stay stale and largely unexplored. The Resistance and Republic each have 7 unique astros, Rebels 3. Sensor slots could also use a bit of spicing up.  

Imperials

1) Dark Side upgrades as a facet of play, just a whiff of an idea that has floundered for two years. 

2) None of the really good crew have seen official second edition release. I mean, it's been two years, and no Palpatine? And as much as I am excited about the BRUTE, before the TIE Bomber or Lambda rerelease, really?

3) The TIE Interceptor has two aces. yet the Silencer has more than double that. Sigh. 

Scum & Villainy (the one faction that really keeps me around, but I am terrified they will split it up eventually into Cartels and Bounty Hunters)

1) Illicits, which should be hugely faction defining and a bit of a showcase for the faction, are largely irrelevant except Contraband Cybernetics. Sigh.

2) 3, count them, 3 large base releases, that have zero real competitiveness to them and largely just serve as what most large ships are in the world of 2.0, MOV bleeders. Man, I hope the Razor Crest is baller. 

3) Some of the better small base platforms (Starviper, Kihraxz, HWK-290) have yet to get a release and with some more options for Aces could really give the faction more versatility.

As I said in another thread a few weeks back, it is just disheartening to be an original trilogy only specialist. The solution is so simple, it's elementary---card packs. Freaking high margin, low cost and R&D investment card packs. Allow us OT onlys to purchase new upgrades same day of release within their own faction purchases, and give us some aces and faction unique ones as well to be excited for. 

What are my dream ships for these expansions?

Rebels; 2 A-Wings (with a 3 point drop in price for generics) and an E-Wing, with at least 3 new aces for each ship, and a legit terror I6 for the RZ-1A

Imperials; 2 TIE Bombers and a TIE Fighter; We already get 2 TIE/lns in the core set, so one is enough with some incredible Aces and new paintjob. Let this be the way to buy into Bombers for catchup, with both bombers sporting different paintjobs as well. 

Scum; 2 Kihraxz and a Starviper. With 3-4 new illicits, and 2-3 new aces. Yeah, that sure would be nice. 

Please nail these squadron packs FFG. Get them right and make them feel revolutionary for us OGs. Stop firewalling good content in out of faction purchases, and let us throw $$$ at you. I'll do it, I promise. Make me excited and proud to keep promoting the game as someone who craves identifying with a certain bloc.

I love this game alot, obviously. Thanks for any reads, and any bit of optimism some might want to share to cheer up a disgruntled OT guy. Happy Monday to all. 

Edited by Cloaker

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I get what you are saying.   I was in the same boat during 1.0 playing empire.   I stepped away for a bit.   Played other games - Battlestar Galactica Starship battles for instance.    It honestly, my friends wanted to play x-wing again, so we gave it a try.   They enjoy it.   Especially the fan supplement Heroes of the Aturi Cluster.   
Another thing that got me back into the game is Star Wars Squadrons.    With the campaign we get two new canon squads to pull pilots from - for several craft.  
 

I think a lot of the issue is finding canon examples of pilots.   While FFG can and will dip into legends, they need to take a lot from canon, and lets be honest, the sequels have a lot more pilots in canon.  The Original trilogy era is getting more characters to choose from.

There is a lot of tie in marketing.   Clone wars came out with a final season, so it was a good time to release that era in games.   The sequels had the movies.   But now, with Squadrons..  it would be a good time to focus on the rebellion/new republic era.   If the new rebel and imperial were bases on Vanguard and Titan squadrons, I’d be okay with that.

 

Still..  it is okay to step away for a bit.  Play something else - or even better MAKE something else and come back later.  

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While agree with the gist of your post, I feel I need to address some points:

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

Rebels

1) The lack of adequate competitive filler in a meta that has drifted towards higher ship counts. Looking at purely second edition releases, when your cheapest ship is 29 points, it just pales in comparison to what all of the other factions have. 

  • Bandit Squadron Pilot - 22
  • Tala Squadron Pilot - 24
  • "Zeb" TIE - 24
  • Sabine TIE - 28

Rebels do pale against most faction for cheap filler and the generic A-wing should drop to similar prices of the TIE/v1, but saying the cheapest filler is 29 points is inaccurate.

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

Imperials

1) Dark Side upgrades as a facet of play, just a whiff of an idea that has floundered for two years.

It has done more than Light Side upgrades, and Hate is actually an useful upgrade.

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

3) The TIE Interceptor has two aces. yet the Silencer has more than double that. Sigh. 

lol. I think you mean 2 named pilots. Turr Phennir is not an Ace. Much like the A-wing, I would like to see some new named pilots which are hopefully coming in the upcoming squad packs.

1 hour ago, Cloaker said:

2) 3, count them, 3 large base releases, that have zero real competitiveness to them and largely just serve as what most large ships are in the world of 2.0, MOV bleeders. Man, I hope the Razor Crest is baller.

Nom Lumb and Dengar are actually usable now! Adding the cannon slot and lowering the cost of the title really helped. Up until that change I would have agreed with you. But the point still stands: Big base Scum ain't in a great position. Scum Falcon and the YV-666 are meh. The Lancer is decent but overpriced. Big base two die turrets just don't do jack.

 

But again. I with you on the whole sentiment of the post. Imperial are really fine, but the Lambda needs released. Rebels are largely fine, but A-wings are curiously priced and needs Aces. Scum will continue to be eclipsed by Boba until other things come in line. Useful Scum exclusive illicits would be welcome as illicit access is expanded to the majority of factions at this point.

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6 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

While agree with the gist of your post, I feel I need to address some points:

  • Bandit Squadron Pilot - 22
  • Tala Squadron Pilot - 24
  • "Zeb" TIE - 24
  • Sabine TIE - 28

Rebels do pale against most faction for cheap filler and the generic A-wing should drop to similar prices of the TIE/v1, but saying the cheapest filler is 29 points is inaccurate.

It has done more than Light Side upgrades, and Hate is actually an useful upgrade.

But again. I with you on the whole sentiment of the post. Imperial are really fine, but the Lambda needs released. Rebels are largely fine, but A-wings are curiously priced and needs Aces. Scum will continue to be eclipsed by Boba until other things come in line. Useful Scum exclusive illicits would be welcome as illicit access is expanded to the majority of factions at this point.

Sorry, clarification needed on filler--meaning released second edition ships. Seems deliberately shortsighted to go two years into release cycle without a new release low cost filler. Hate is good I suppose on Vader. Is that enough considering all of the force users out there? Maybe I'll try 5 Inquisitors with Hate :) 

 

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39 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Another thing that got me back into the game is Star Wars Squadrons.    With the campaign we get two new canon squads to pull pilots from - for several craft.  

You know, this does give me a lot of hope for fun new characters. Now if my two days late Amazon order of Squadrons can get here so I can play!!!

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

. Scum Falcon and the YV-666 are meh.

I played a few games as Lando with Unkar and IG crew and title. It's a good filler, and a pain to get down because of Lando's rerolls. 

Not top tier, but playable.

The YV has a BIG problem: he cannot go offense while defending himself, so he's a fortress that burns fast. Not enough actions. But playing Jabba Han contraband could be really fun. Focused and action for 5 turns

Edited by Silver_leader

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18 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Hate is good I suppose on Vader. Is that enough considering all of the force users out there? Maybe I'll try 5 Inquisitors with Hate

Fifth Brother has gotten some use out of it, and he is decent with it + Homing Missiles. Seventh Sister is probably fine with it, but I would use it on Grand or junior inquisitors.

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I think the lack of sales for 2nd edition rereleases have put a damper on the three original factions. Original players aren't buying enough of the re-released ships again to justify FLGS keeping them in stock, even with things like new paint jobs or moving parts. I don't think FFG has a clue how to solve that conundrum without putting new content in with rereleased ships to get older players to buy them, which then violates the commitment they made when they released the conversion kits.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I think the lack of sales for 2nd edition rereleases have put a damper on the three original factions. Original players aren't buying enough of the re-released ships again to justify FLGS keeping them in stock, even with things like new paint jobs or moving parts. I don't think FFG has a clue how to solve that conundrum without putting new content in with rereleased ships to get older players to buy them, which then violates the commitment they made when they released the conversion kits.

They could pull a Nantex-style points drop.

It would be super manipulative and probably short-sighted but dropping the cost of Strikers, TIE Soontir Fels, A-wings, et al so they can be spammed with 3-5 points of upgrades on each would get things flying off the shelves.

Their choice of rereleases sure hasn't helped. Why do a reprint of the JM5K when so many people from 1.0 bought three? Not to mention all the damage they did to the chassis that can't really be fixed by a simple points drop.

 

I wonder how much it would cost them to recall all the 1.0 stock give retailers credit, and repackage it to 2.0 stock. Probably not feasible but it certainly would get rid of the 1.0 stock. But that's a different issue.

Edited by Skitch_

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1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would it help you if you were factually wrong on some specific points? I'm asking because to me this sounds like a rationalization of your feelings instead of a position that you reasoned yourself into.

kind way of putting it. 

 

--

Also agree, factually wrong. Wondering if you only buy 2.0 re-relases and have some sort of odd hatred towards conversion kits, cuz that's where the funs been? 

Been killing it with Empire still. TONS of amazing choices. Aces choices abound. Sloane swarm, tie bomber swarm. Nutty stuff with Tie Aggressors abound. 

Rebels I will agree has been a bit sad. The main idea I can agree is a bit lost, though things like the runner-list are still fun. Wedge and Zs are still wonderful. The Resistance Awing is seriously ridiculous. The A1 needs help. 

Scum too. Fenn and Scurggs has been a great one recently. 2 Firesprays is competitive. Guri? 4 star vipers? The trandoshan slaver? awesome. Even the clunky medium base bullseye ship is so awful looking I gotta try it. 

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1 hour ago, Silver_leader said:

I played a few games as Lando with Unkar and IG crew and title. It's a good filler, and a pain to get down because of Lando's rerolls. 

Not top tier, but playable.

The YV has a BIG problem: he cannot go offense while defending himself, so he's a fortress that burns fast. Not enough actions. But playing Jabba Han contraband could be really fun. Focused and action for 5 turns

Guys, you prob fly the YV wrong. I mean no offense: most ppl don't understand it. I've been playing Lambda and YV for years, I urge to try it again. YV recently got a point reduction its an amazing ship. 

 

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16 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Original players aren't buying enough of the re-released ships again to justify FLGS keeping them in stock, even with things like new paint jobs or moving parts.

Part of the problem was re-releasing a load of ships that either everybody from 1st edition had, that was underperforming, or both. The last 4 Scum releases have been the Z95, the Jumpmaster, the YV666, and the M3A. The YV666 and the Z95 stink, and the Jump and the M3A used to stink until points/slots and cannons made them viable. Rebels got a bunch of staples, but with the Ghost underperforming and with generic A's being overcosted, those weren't going to move.

Empire is the oddest duck, with people spending far too much money to buy the Alpha Class StarWing, and even paying decent amounts for Phantoms and Aggressors. The Decimator was a good release as they were common and were decent to fly. Strikers, Interceptors, and Defenders were all still easy to find and didn't really see more than 1 flown in a list at a time, lowering the drive to purchase more than 1. If the next Imperial release isn't the Phantom or StarWing, I will be perplexed. I would at least understand the bomber as it is an OG movie ship, however.

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1 hour ago, Silver_leader said:

The YV has a BIG problem: he cannot go offense while defending himself, so he's a fortress that burns fast. Not enough actions. But playing Jabba Han contraband could be really fun. Focused and action for 5 turns

Yesterday Bossk with 4-Lom, Zuckuss, Greedo, Deadman, CS, Electronic Baffle did really well against Nantexes. For 71 points you have 12HP ship that has 58% to deal 3 damage to 3 agility ship(with 1 green token) and 22% to deal 4 damage with 180 arc at R2. Even more in bullseye or R1. Even at R3 there's 16% to one shot Nantex.

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46 minutes ago, Boreas Mun said:

Yesterday Bossk with 4-Lom, Zuckuss, Greedo, Deadman, CS, Electronic Baffle did really well against Nantexes. For 71 points you have 12HP ship that has 58% to deal 3 damage to 3 agility ship(with 1 green token) and 22% to deal 4 damage with 180 arc at R2. Even more in bullseye or R1. Even at R3 there's 16% to one shot Nantex.

CS?

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1 hour ago, Skitch_ said:

They could pull a Nantex-style points drop.

It would be super manipulative and probably short-sighted but dropping the cost of Strikers, TIE Soontir Fels, A-wings, et al so they can be spammed with 3-5 points of upgrades on each would get things flying off the shelves.

You mean how they dropped the price on t65s? Did that work?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I think a lot of the issue is finding canon examples of pilots.

Counterpoint: FFG literally just makes up characters and concepts to ensure there are named pilots.

Furthermore, FFG used the canon characters extremely poorly. For example? Gunner Luke. "Supposed to be bad tutorial effects" are questionable at best, but why the flip did they make Luke bad on purpose? Excuse me? What? Wanna try that again FFG?

Why is Lando unusable except in a specific combo as crew? Why is Han a really questionable gunner that only exists on certain platforms? Why is C3P0 Anti-synergistic with the Falcon? Why are R2 and Chewie just plain old bad because regen has to be bad on larges or we get Handbrake?

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would it help you if you were factually wrong on some specific points? I'm asking because to me this sounds like a rationalization of your feelings instead of a position that you reasoned yourself into.

While individual specific points might be wrong, the general feeling that OT factions got heavily shafted is... pretty objectively valid, and it matters less what is true and more that people feel a certain way. I mean, you yourself basically found that you are twice as likely to lose a game than normal, just for playing rebel.

Or, to paraphrase Mark Rosewater: Players are bad at finding specific solutions to problems, but they are good at spotting problems, and its a fools errand to try to convince them something they see as a problem isn't a problem. 

4 hours ago, Cloaker said:

The solution is so simple, it's elementary---card packs. Freaking high margin, low cost and R&D investment card packs. Allow us OT onlys to purchase new upgrades same day of release within their own faction purchases, and give us some aces and faction unique ones as well to be excited for

This is, indeed, a shockingly obvious path for fixing these factions and continuing to monetize them. 

A huge advantage of X-wing, and why it even overtook 40k as the most played minis game, was the fact it is a minis game with the store profile and cash investment requirement of its users of a card game. Squadron packs lean OUT of this, and the steadfast refusal to release regular cardboard content feels... petty?

It feels like OT players are actively being punished, like there is a desire to force them to play the new factions. And obviously there is, but this feels less like 'trying to lure me to new hotness' and more 'If you refuse to buy new hotness we will give you a 2 year content drought.'

I don't even think it needs to be a regular thing (though, again, it is shocking its not because it would allow FFG to slot X-wing into the same spot as its LCGs as having 'big' and 'little' releases, which worked extremely well for Netrunner), but releasing one major 'Ok we are fixing the core issues with the OT CCs and making new versions of a lot of characters so the iconics can actually see play' packs would be smart.

Edited by dezzmont

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

You mean how they dropped the price on t65s? Did that work?

No. No it did not.

The T-65 as a 'spam' platform doesn't make any logistical sense really in the context of 2.0. Not only is that a really boring and manipulative way to try to get rebel players to be happy, it literally can't... work... at least not with how a lot of other things are priced.

Like 4 Fangs (with Fenn to boot!) exists. Why would you ever run 5X? 4 Fang is almost objectively better in every way.

The T-65 is the poster child for 'its not a pricing issue.' The T-65 basically can't go lower anymore or else really dumb stuff happens like UUXXX. The factions just lack tools, or draws to the faction, after Beef got a 27+ points nerf, which is just a flabbergasting amount for a list to get nerfed by.

Individual pieces prices only matter in their context. A 40 point X-wing isn't great in the context of how 2.0 is actually played (The X-wing, as a generic jousting platform, kinda is a 'worst of all worlds' scenario despite having good stats on paper), other lists you can fly that fit the same strategy (4 Fang, for example), or the faction as a whole (There is no reason to make the sacrifices the T-65 makes in order to get access to anything in the rebel's toolbox currently. The faction's 'color pie' was gutted so there is little reason to use them).

We often see little lists here and there taking tournaments by surprise (I remember when Saw VCX was all the rage), but that should be expected because X-wings has dice variance. But over the long term we have a super extremely clear picture of where the OT factions stand. 

Empire is in the healthiest spot with both strong lists and diverse viable archetypes and subtypes within those archetypes (even if they could use new toys and are not on top right now), Scum is in a weird spot and is held up almost entirely by the fact that a lot of their efficient tools are underpriced rather than any cohesive benefits to the faction as a whole, and Rebels are totally dead in the water and their faction feel is just... Just awful.

Edited by dezzmont

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Would it help you if you were factually wrong on some specific points? I'm asking because to me this sounds like a rationalization of your feelings instead of a position that you reasoned yourself into.

This is TOTALLY a rationalization of my feelings :) . I know Empire is still solid, and Scum is great. But have the original factions evolved like the other 4 with exciting new content? Arguably not.  The dearth is real.

I play mainly Hyperspace though, so that's probably where much of the consternation lies. 

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Also agree, factually wrong. Wondering if you only buy 2.0 re-relases and have some sort of odd hatred towards conversion kits, cuz that's where the funs been? 

Been killing it with Empire still. TONS of amazing choices. Aces choices abound. Sloane swarm, tie bomber swarm. Nutty stuff with Tie Aggressors abound. 

Rebels I will agree has been a bit sad. The main idea I can agree is a bit lost, though things like the runner-list are still fun. Wedge and Zs are still wonderful. The Resistance Awing is seriously ridiculous. The A1 needs help. 

Scum too. Fenn and Scurggs has been a great one recently. 2 Firesprays is competitive. Guri? 4 star vipers? The trandoshan slaver? awesome. Even the clunky medium base bullseye ship is so awful looking I gotta try it. 

I have conversion kits. Got 5 gunboats, 5 tie aggressors, plenty of bombers. I can actually field the max of every single potential combination of Imperial and Scum chassis possible, and almost every Rebel (need a couple of more B-Wing dials.)  I buy new models too when they come out because I can't paint and I love having the different schemes. I like Imperials a great deal. But I want shiny new options, you know? I'm going to easily buy 3-4 TIE Craigs, FWIW.... I also think three Trandos with CC and Autoblaster Nom Lumb is hilarious to play. My Autoblaster Sunny/Seevor/Moldy Crow Torkil/2 Zealots is killing it. But without, you know, new pilots and stuff, it feels hollow I suppose compared to the cool stuff the other factions are getting. All those articles, and the only one I could really be excited for was the Brute :( 

Really, I just want some more Rebel options if it really comes down to it. The Resistance and Republic just dwarf anything Rebels can seem to put together with options and it is so discouraging. I don;t think it is a surprise that the faction that requires the most synergy is struggling in a higher than 1.0 average ship count meta. But I've griped about that before, I know...

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

@Cloaker

HEAR, HEAER!!!

I as an OT kid myself, I’ve branched our into other factions just for something.... NEW. lol. 

I just don't have the money or inclination to go into the other factions when I would rather spend money on the three I like, you know?

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

RAzorcrest is on a big base!?!

That doesn't really make sense. It looks exactly like the G1-A in size and dimensions.

Money grab

DOA if anything larger than medium. I'm sad on this too, because its' release basically guarantees we won't see the Mist Hunter for a long time, and I like 4-LOM. 

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

Counterpoint: FFG literally just makes up characters and concepts to ensure there are named pilots.

Furthermore, FFG used the canon characters extremely poorly. For example? Gunner Luke. "Supposed to be bad tutorial effects" are questionable at best, but why the flip did they make Luke bad on purpose? Excuse me? What? Wanna try that again FFG?

Why is Lando unusable except in a specific combo as crew? Why is Han a really questionable gunner that only exists on certain platforms? Why is C3P0 Anti-synergistic with the Falcon? Why are R2 and Chewie just plain old bad because regen has to be bad on larges or we get Handbrake?

While individual specific points might be wrong, the general feeling that OT factions got heavily shafted is... pretty objectively valid, and it matters less what is true and more that people feel a certain way. I mean, you yourself basically found that you are twice as likely to lose a game than normal, just for playing rebel.

Or, to paraphrase Mark Rosewater: Players are bad at finding specific solutions to problems, but they are good at spotting problems, and its a fools errand to try to convince them something they see as a problem isn't a problem. 

It feels like OT players are actively being punished, like there is a desire to force them to play the new factions. And obviously there is, but this feels less like 'trying to lure me to new hotness' and more 'If you refuse to buy new hotness we will give you a 2 year content drought.'

Hm, you are articulating some of the things that frustrate me better than I  even think to express. I wish the icons were playable competitively in every form, card or model. You make some great points. 

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

 

Hi Hiemfire, talk me off the ledge you know how I roll

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I played a LAAT + 3 y-wings to night VS 4 droid gunships, and it was like playing rock VS advanced spacegun. I really felt the droids getting all the fun stuff, shareing tokens, TLs, droid torps, and funny sideslips. Its seems crazy good and has a lot of fun new elements in just one list. I really hope tie interceptors get accecs  to  a lot of daredevil new kind of manuvers not on their dials via mods and talents., because I also want to have flying fun with the older factions. 

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