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Archangelspiv

Are LAAT's too expensive to fly with named Jedi?

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14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'll give you the boring and bland, but the LAAT has plenty of tricks and synergy. Cody, Wolfpack, Synchronized Console, Fire Convergence, and Warthog's ability really enable the generics in what has largely been an Ace faction.

But yes, boring to fly. It's basically an Auzituck on the scale of exciting maneuvers.

But that is all added cost. Something a shuttle would get to. Its not that you can build a list with it, its just not that exciting for such an iconic ship, at least not to me. 

Edited by Dwing

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Tbf, I do sympathise with the "not a gunship" thing, because it isn't, yet it's still called one. A little bit of a mislead there. 

However, the rerolls and 7FG should be seen as it providing supporting fire on the chosen target. So its basically continuously firing, even when it isn't rolling it's own dice.

Hence, gunship, I guess. Which is why best use isn't as a pure tactical support ship, but as a... support... gunship....

Something like that.

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13 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Tbf, I do sympathise with the "not a gunship" thing, because it isn't, yet it's still called one. A little bit of a mislead there. 

However, the rerolls and 7FG should be seen as it providing supporting fire on the chosen target. So its basically continuously firing, even when it isn't rolling it's own dice.

Hence, gunship, I guess. Which is why best use isn't as a pure tactical support ship, but as a... support... gunship....

Something like that.

Yes its a ship with two roles and it feels like they went heavily with the troop transport version. I wish they would have saved that for the many shuttle the reps also have. Ah well..

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They should have give the oppotunity to have 2 configs for the LAAT, as they have done with the hyenas.

- 1 for troop support, with fire convergence, and all that the LAAT has actually;

 - 1 lighter version with maybe 1 crew, no fire convergence, that can act as a simple shuttle.

The problem is that the platform does not simply give the Republic a shuttle, it's a support ship (and a good one with fire convergence and the pilot abilities).  It makes it a priority target and melts fast. So you don'T want to put a very good crew in a ship that's dying fast.

The Xi is a simple shuttle, and I find it a little too overpriced. Basic Lambda at 43 and basic Xi is 38. The Xi has 2 attack dices, the Lambda has 2 firing arcs and 3 attack dices on front arc. Otherwise, 10 hits 2 defense is comparable to 7 hits 2 defense.  I would be happy to try to fly a Xi with Snoke below 50 points (3 silencers with ATP and the Xi ?)

Edited by Silver_leader

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Perhaps folks aren't taking into account Fire Convergence, enough. Consider Drea Renthal with a Dorsal Turret at 51 points. She has mildly better dial but less health and none of the crew/gunner support to really be a stronger support ship. Her ability works an unlimited amount of times, but only for generics, only for primary attacks, and only for one die. The LAAT works for any non-turret attack (primary or otherwise) for both generic and named pilots, and for two dice. The limiter here is it is only for a max of two attack per round.

I'd have to say that these are fairly similar abilities or at the very least similar enough to justify both at a cost of 51 points.

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I think the main issue is that the ship is too expensive. Fire convergence is actually quite good, and you could argue that a LAAT with barrage rockets kind of fullfills the heavy-hitting gunship role. People have said that maybe the 51 points are to avoid 1 LAAT + 6 torrents, but would that be so bad? Fire convergence can be used only twice per turn and recharges just one charge, so it's not going to affect all torrents. If that's not the reason then what, avoiding 4 LAATs? That would be a terrible list, they wouldn't even get to use their ability. 

I really can't see why it would be so bad for them to cost... I don't know, 45, 46 points? At most. They are more or less comparable to an ARC (42) with worse guns but one more health and the ability. I can't see them costing 9 whole points more, it's just too much. 

About mobility, yes it's boring, but I wasn't expecting this thing to be able to barrel roll or anything, I think they did that right and thematic (despite these blue maneuvers being so awful) 

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2 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

People have said that maybe the 51 points are to avoid 1 LAAT + 6 torrents, but would that be so bad? Fire convergence can be used only twice per turn and recharges just one charge, so it's not going to affect all torrents.

I think FFG is putting that on a trial basis right now. If LAAT+5 is good, then they made the right choice, but if it isn't, they can try change it to LAAT+6 in November. I have personally flown against LAAT+4+ARC and LAAT+4+Missiles, and they are strong lists. I was very much on the LAAT might be over costed until I flew against those lists. 

4 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

(despite these blue maneuvers being so awful)

It a faction identity! :P 

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14 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

I really can't see why it would be so bad for them to cost... I don't know, 45, 46 points?

The problem is that at that cost you get far to much quality from 3 Aces next to it in part because named Jedi are still incredibly cheap. 

I still maintain that the LAAT Ship ability should have been restricted to work on Non-Limited No Name Force-Less friendly ships only. 

That way the cost could come down a bit and still serve a role next to an Ace with a Laat + Squad or next to a full Squad of Clones only. 

Warthog is sorta its own beast for various reasons.

As it stands the LAAT is priced very reasonably given how broadly its ship ability is written. 

Edited by Boom Owl

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IMHO the best support for Republic Aces might be an ARC with Plo Koon now, that Reinforce on an Arc can be amazing. Although Aayla Secura would be quite a potent action economy addition.

LAAT seems more like an addition to a Torrent Swarm with Dedicated and a Jedi General on board. It's too expensive in a low ship list. Cheapest LAAT is 50 I think. 66 if you slap it with Aayla. Leaving 134 points for two Aces. It's not really enough... Jedi Aces are expensive like ****. Maybe 7B Ani and Ric? Ric being the cheapest piece in the list seems awkward.

Edited by Schanez

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1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

The problem is that at that cost you get far to much quality from 3 Aces next to it in part because named Jedi are still incredibly cheap. 

I still maintain that the LAAT Ship ability should have been restricted to work on Non-Limited No Name Force-Less friendly ships only. 

That way the cost could come down a bit and still serve a role next to an Ace with a Laat + Squad or next to a full Squad of Clones only. 

Warthog is sorta its own beast for various reasons.

As it stands the LAAT is priced very reasonably given how broadly its ship ability is written. 

Yes this. Personally don't know exactly where I stand on the cost right now, but in the 4 ship lists I'm working through, another 5pt or so would go a LONG way. 

4 LAAT, or 1 plus 6 Torrent may not be troublesome, but 1 plus 3 aces can jump a jedi from I4 to I5 with a decent price drop.

In one, I only need 4pt to field Ric instead of Broadside, that brings a whole different order of menace in how I can deploy and spread my list. Particularly with 7FG in there.

Edited by Cuz05

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24 minutes ago, Schanez said:

IMHO the best support for Republic Aces might be an ARC with Plo Koon now, that Reinforce on an Arc can be amazing. Although Aayla Secura would be quite a potent action economy addition.

LAAT seems more like an addition to a Torrent Swarm with Dedicated and a Jedi General on board. It's too expensive in a low ship list. Cheapest LAAT is 50 I think. 66 if you slap it with Aayla. Leaving 134 points for two Aces. It's not really enough... Jedi Aces are expensive like ****. Maybe 7B Ani and Ric? Ric being the cheapest piece in the list seems awkward.

Don't you think it just hurts a bit to never mod at all your attacks with a 3 dice primary? If you reinforce all the time with the ARC. 

On the other hand, you could use the force point and reinforce only from time to time I guess, but I think that Aayla is much better for a support ship, it allows the ARC to still punch hard while helping your other ships. That would be 58 for a generic ARC, similar to a LAAT with 7th fleet gunner. 

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4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Without Fire Convergence, this is basically a K-Wing...

I wonder: what if LAAT had a config that removed Fire Convergence, but gave them 3 red dice, no other changes.

//

Alternative: what if you could use Fire Convergence on turret attacks?  Is that enough?

It's similar to a K about as much as it's similar to a Punisher. It's different enough for all the reasons you mentioned I don't think it's fair to compare it to either of them though realistically. All those negatives added up. Heck, its got more in common with a Lambda really.

It's funny you, @wurms, @Silver_leader, and myself all came up with the config angle. As I hit submit on my last post it occurred to me that different configs like what the XG-1 had would have been a good way to design this ship. One config could have been "Command/support" based and had the FC ability. So thanks to Silver for getting that covered. Ninjas.

As for removing the ability with a different card, well, kinda late now. There's probably a way to do it but that's a lot to bite off. And then there's all the problems that brings like needing to make a second purchase, and points. If it just flat removed the ability then it's a discount, duh. But then that's literally just a patch and admission that it's a screw up. The card that removed the ability should give you something back to keep it interesting, and then price is going to need to follow that. And that something interesting I don't want to see as something as plain as an extra attack die. Because then it's just a smaller falcon realistically. When I think of the LAAT as a gunnery platform I'm thinking it should have built in bonus attack of some interesting kind, but small attacks are fine if it went that way. They just have to mean something.

If FC worked on turrets, that would certainly help improve it's mono chassis spam builds. But again, I think that's a surface level fix. If the ability affected say only primary, or only secondary, well that would be interesting.

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I must admit that boom owl's LAAT + 3 named Jedi (mostly naked and lewd) sounds like one of the better lists. It also sounds cool and is something I would totally try. Thanks

Though again, the 4 aces Jedi and Arc + 3 named Jedi is perhaps still a better list.

Yet, I think with 7FG and the LAAT's ability, the LAAT+3Jedi seems justified as a good list. 

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25 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

Don't you think it just hurts a bit to never mod at all your attacks with a 3 dice primary? If you reinforce all the time with the ARC.

Putting Plo on Wolffe or Jag who can generate their own offensive mods would be the right choice. Particularly on Jag, since the opponent either needs to fire into your reinforced 9 HP ship, or shoot your buddy, thereby giving Jag a lock. Give those buddies Dedicated and if they shoot Jag, then Jag now has reinforce with defensive rerolls for strain that Plo will clear from the buddy in the end phase.

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7 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

It's similar to a K about as much as it's similar to a Punisher. It's different enough for all the reasons you mentioned I don't think it's fair to compare it to either of them though realistically. All those negatives added up. Heck, its got more in common with a Lambda really.

I still think that a non-ability LAAT is the closest to the K-Wing of everything.  Closest statline and gun and dial configuration.  Actions are probably closer to a K-Wing than Lambda, too.

As it is, the role in a list, yeah, Lambda-like right now.

9 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

It's funny you, @wurms, @Silver_leader, and myself all came up with the config angle.

[...]

If FC worked on turrets, that would certainly help improve it's mono chassis spam builds. But again, I think that's a surface level fix. If the ability affected say only primary, or only secondary, well that would be interesting.

I mean, I don't necessarily think there's any real problem with the LAAT.  Maybe results will show it needs a cut, but 51 is a nice safe release price.  E-Wing released at very safe prices, and kept dropping until it was good.  This might be the same, if it actually needs cuts.  Really early and we don't exactly know yet.

But mostly, I know some folks are dissatisfied with the... texture... of the LAAT.  I guess I'm less interested in whether it should be different, and more about "if it was different, how should it be different?"  Something to think about, I guess.

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36 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I still think that a non-ability LAAT is the closest to the K-Wing of everything.  Closest statline and gun and dial configuration.  Actions are probably closer to a K-Wing than Lambda, too.

As it is, the role in a list, yeah, Lambda-like right now.

I mean, I don't necessarily think there's any real problem with the LAAT.  Maybe results will show it needs a cut, but 51 is a nice safe release price.  E-Wing released at very safe prices, and kept dropping until it was good.  This might be the same, if it actually needs cuts.  Really early and we don't exactly know yet.

But mostly, I know some folks are dissatisfied with the... texture... of the LAAT.  I guess I'm less interested in whether it should be different, and more about "if it was different, how should it be different?"  Something to think about, I guess.

I was also going with non-ability as a base to compare. I'm not completely discounting your K comparison, just adding that Punisher and Lambda are in there too. It's subjective though so we'll reach have our own perfectly valid view. Not knocking yours.

To keep people from getting the wrong idea... It's not that I dislike the FC ability for what it does, I dislike it for where it's placed. It's a upgrade effect, on a chassis slot. In a vacuum I like the ability a lot. I think it's impactful with a fair charge cost associated and a restriction that makes you think how to use it.

Look at every suggested list in this thread and you see a common theme: LAAT plus XYZ. The ship itself is an upgrade. You don't take it for what it does, you take it for what it does for something else.

If it was different, they in all honesty should have taken the major super unique design feature of the ship and built around that, and it's so fun to say this crazy ridiculous thing so I'm putting it in all caps: MASS DRIVER MISSILE LAUNCHER. It's very unique in the lore, it had a major scene in the movies, and it's visually a extremely prominent feature of the ship. Why that wasn't where they went I only kind of get because so many scenes are shot inside the transport bay. But at no point have I seen the ship and thought, oh yeah, that's the thing that converges it's fire to get the most basic damage out. 

For crying out loud, the wing and door guns themselves are 'convergent' composite beam weapons. It doesn't need a second ship for them to work.

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24 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

I was also going with non-ability as a base to compare. I'm not completely discounting your K comparison, just adding that Punisher and Lambda are in there too. It's subjective though so we'll reach have our own perfectly valid view. Not knocking yours.

To keep people from getting the wrong idea... It's not that I dislike the FC ability for what it does, I dislike it for where it's placed. It's a upgrade effect, on a chassis slot. In a vacuum I like the ability a lot. I think it's impactful with a fair charge cost associated and a restriction that makes you think how to use it.

Look at every suggested list in this thread and you see a common theme: LAAT plus XYZ. The ship itself is an upgrade. You don't take it for what it does, you take it for what it does for something else.

If it was different, they in all honesty should have taken the major super unique design feature of the ship and built around that, and it's so fun to say this crazy ridiculous thing so I'm putting it in all caps: MASS DRIVER MISSILE LAUNCHER. It's very unique in the lore, it had a major scene in the movies, and it's visually a extremely prominent feature of the ship. Why that wasn't where they went I only kind of get because so many scenes are shot inside the transport bay. But at no point have I seen the ship and thought, oh yeah, that's the thing that converges it's fire to get the most basic damage out. 

For crying out loud, the wing and door guns themselves are 'convergent' composite beam weapons. It doesn't need a second ship for them to work.

It was weird to me that it did not have some sort of forward arc thing. 

I would have guessed 180 forward arc if it wasn't for the HMP. 

 

Also, the only time I take the LAAT for what it actually does is when I get 3 and load with Barrage rockets. Not exactly the greatest list though. 

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I am a big advocate of 7th Gunner, unless I’m reading it wrong, combined with CLT, you can get 5 die attacks. 
2 base, +1 for range 1, +1 for 7 FG, roll the dice, add a focus result for bullseye. Can turn someone like Obi into beast mode. Still not sure if it would be better with an ARC, using Plo to take the disarmed token so the ARC can shoot. 

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3 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I am a big advocate of 7th Gunner, unless I’m reading it wrong, combined with CLT, you can get 5 die attacks. 
2 base, +1 for range 1, +1 for 7 FG, roll the dice, add a focus result for bullseye. Can turn someone like Obi into beast mode. Still not sure if it would be better with an ARC, using Plo to take the disarmed token so the ARC can shoot. 

That's correct on how it works with CLT, though my carrier choice is a Red Squadron Bomber with a dorsal turret.  Only 40 points, better arc coverage, and I don't feel bad slapping a two die attack ship with a weapons disabled token every turn.  

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