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Wazat

Thinking about Deadeye Shot

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I really like the design of Deadeye: challenging to use, but very useful.  It only works in bullseye, doesn't work until the target has a damage card, and that damage has to be facedown, so it won't come into play immediately or consistently.  However, for only one point you have the ability to force an effect past the target's agility and tokens, similar to Seyn and a rare few other effects (and it's a cheap talent almost anyone can take, so some ships' bullseyes could be mean).

So if you only rolled one hit against that 3-agility tokened up target at range 3 behind an asteroid, just spend it to flip that Panicked Pilot or Direct Hit again, or gamble on maybe giving them a damaged engine or something else hazardous.  It's also handy against reinforcing targets.  If you roll 2 hits against that reinforced Decimator, you might as well spend one to flip one of its cards since the reinforce would have blocked it anyway. (I suppose that may further weaken reinforce; sorry auzitucks!)

Being a bullseye effect, it lends itself best to either aces (for bullseye alignment) or swarms (for wide coverage).

 

I'm tempted to build a mini swarm around Marksman Seyn for the shenanigans (see example squad).  And of course, a grossly casual 4 deadeye kimogila list, just on principle.  :D

But for more serious lists, I'm curious if people are excited about Deadeye or if it's just a meh card to you.

Deadeye_shot.png

Edited by Wazat
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26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Deadeye Shot seems almost made for double-talent ships.  Like, in Hyperspace Marksmanship + DES is how I'd configure 6 Nantex.

But if I'm able to go Crack Shot, well, I'm going Crack Shot.

On the wiki we talked a bit about combining Marksmanship and Deadeye Shot on a RZ-1, RZ-2, or Nantex swarm.  At the time I wondered if it might be a trap in some cases... I get the impression Nantex swarms generally want Gravitic because they become so hard to kill, but otherwise might enjoy Deadeye a lot... though affording that 6th nantex and being able to fly more loosely is probably well worth it.

But in Extended yea, Crack Shot is still better.

I wonder about A-Wings too.  Deadeye on its own is pretty decent for them, but I wonder if Marksmanship adds enough.  Rebel can do 6 a-wings, with 5 of them running deadeye + marksmanship and the 6th in front playing blocker.  For resistance, Marksmanship is competing with Heroic (helping on all shots and some defense rolls, instead of only bullseye shots) so I doubt they'd give that up.  Heroic + Deadeye seems pretty nifty though.

But in the RZ1 and Nantex cases Marksman does potentially improve the damage of those bullseye shots on damaged targets, since you're both flipping a card and still pushing the same total hits at your opponent's defenses (converting the crit instead of spending a hit could amount to a solid shot).  I'm curious what A-Wings and Nantex will be doing going forward... Getting gravitic off the Nantex would at least shake things up.  Probably still ugly for opponents, but in a different way.  :D

I think I've talked myself into Marksmanship+Deadeye working well for RZ-1s and Nantex.  I just don't wanna fight that nantex list with my regular jank; I've seen firsthand how helpless I am against them.  Definitely a top-meta contender in all its forms.

8 minutes ago, Tyhar7 said:

Also something to put in the mix with concussion bombs. If you get those under the shields then you can start causing some havoc early.

Oh yes I'd forgotten about concussion bombs!  That's a fun idea.  I think that changes my silly Seyn swarm to something like this.

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8 minutes ago, Innese said:

Pulled off the Deadeye Shot dream the other day...

Concussion bombs snuck a card in on Vader, then Thane swooped in... Deadeye shot flipped the card (Direct Hit) and then Thane flipped it again.

Majestic!

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And what about the empire, running Seyn Marana with marksmanship to deal a facedown damage card pass shields and then another ship to flip that card? It could be a black squadrom TIE (cheap) or a Saber squadron interceptor, for instance (easier to aim the bulseye). Also Gideon Hask (extra die when attacking the damaged target). 

I have been trying to come up with a good way to take advantage of Marana's damage and this seems like the perfect fit 😃 should be fun to make it work. 

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2 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

And what about the empire, running Seyn Marana with marksmanship to deal a facedown damage card pass shields and then another ship to flip that card? It could be a black squadrom TIE (cheap) or a Saber squadron interceptor, for instance (easier to aim the bulseye). Also Gideon Hask (extra die when attacking the damaged target). 

I have been trying to come up with a good way to take advantage of Marana's damage and this seems like the perfect fit 😃 should be fun to make it work. 

I linked a list like this (I don't think anyone saw it) in my initial post, and I agree it's a fun idea.  Gideon is a great addition... perhaps something like this below.  I added Duchess since I feel like the swarm needs support from a pocket ace (and she's great for concussion bombs), but you could turn her into two more TIE/lns easily, or 1 ln and 1 striker, etc.  Maarek is also excellent, and even cheaper.  Or perhaps Soontir.

Seyn Marana (30)    
    Marksmanship (1)    
    
Ship total: 31  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 2    
    
Gideon Hask (30)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 31  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
"Duchess" (44)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    Fifth Brother (12)    
    Concussion Bombs (3)    
    
Ship total: 60  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z224X125WY223X343WY227X343WY227X343WY227X343WY211X343W82W355W&sn=Deadeye and Seyn&obs=

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1 hour ago, Wazat said:

On the wiki we talked a bit about combining Marksmanship and Deadeye Shot on a RZ-1, RZ-2, or Nantex swarm.  At the time I wondered if it might be a trap in some cases... I get the impression Nantex swarms generally want Gravitic because they become so hard to kill, but otherwise might enjoy Deadeye a lot... though affording that 6th nantex and being able to fly more loosely is probably well worth it.

Yeah, 6 > 5, and that's pretty much the end of that.

You're right that it's not something you really want to fight with Jank, and I'd be keen to see price increases in the next rotation (which might be November, like 6-8 weeks from now).

1 hour ago, Wazat said:

Deadeye on its own is pretty decent for them, but I wonder if Marksmanship adds enough. 

Oh, if it's an either-or, I'm probably taking Marksmanship over Deadeye shot.  I haven't done a lot of Marksmanship, but it's felt sneaky-good.  Slipping through crits feels really good.  Trying to rely on raw-rolling crits or spending hits for DES... I'm less sold on.  It'll maybe be handy as a way to leverage weak rolls without mods (get blocked, take that Range 1 shot, only roll one hit, so spend it instead of risking an opponent Evade it), but in general, I think I probably want MMS more, unless the squad has a few tricks.

20 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I linked a list like this (I don't think anyone saw it) in my initial post, and I agree it's a fun idea.  Gideon is a great addition... perhaps something like this below.  I added Duchess since I feel like the swarm needs support from a pocket ace (and she's great for concussion bombs), but you could turn her into two more TIE/lns easily, or 1 ln and 1 striker, etc.  Maarek is also excellent, and even cheaper.  Or perhaps Soontir.

Seyn Marana (30)    
    Marksmanship (1)    
    
Ship total: 31  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 2    
    
Gideon Hask (30)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 31  Half Points: 16  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
Black Squadron Ace (25)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    
Ship total: 26  Half Points: 13  Threshold: 2    
    
"Duchess" (44)    
    Deadeye Shot (1)    
    Fifth Brother (12)    
    Concussion Bombs (3)    
    
Ship total: 60  Half Points: 30  Threshold: 2    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z224X125WY223X343WY227X343WY227X343WY227X343WY211X343W82W355W&sn=Deadeye and Seyn&obs=

I was going to say I think building around DES might be a mistake, but this list is pretty dang clean.  Seyn + Hask + 3 more TIEs seems like a lot of heft to the squad.  Bomb on Duchess should probably happen more often anyhow, and probably will a lot more often with cheap Concs.  Using 5th Brother's Crit to flip a card is an improvement over leaving a crit in the pool (just barely) since it avoids defense dice, which is a nice perk.

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22 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, 6 > 5, and that's pretty much the end of that.

You're right that it's not something you really want to fight with Jank, and I'd be keen to see price increases in the next rotation (which might be November, like 6-8 weeks from now).

They really need to put a stop to 6 nantex. Minimum: Gorgol 31, Stalgasin 34, Petranaki 36.

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32 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, 6 > 5, and that's pretty much the end of that.

Having grappled with the 5 Gravitic version, I can say it was brutal to not be able to land much or any damage on anything all game.  The rerolls (and often compounded with focus/evade) on 2 - 3 dice on every defense roll were shockingly effective.  Blocking didn't help much and I just didn't have the firepower to compete.  So I can understand the value of flying 1 less ship to make all the other ships almost impossible to pin down; Gravitic is amazing.  But 6 nantex that don't need to stick together are also frightening, adding more hull, firepower, and flexibility.

That's just one game though... so *shrug*.  I haven't been playing much lately, sadly.  It's surprisingly hard to find foes that want to play casual stuff instead of practice their tournament list, and also my free time is getting tougher to parcel out.  Not the worst this virus has done but I'm still salty.  :)

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I think Marksman is going to be for 3 dicers who can consistently shoot and mod, and thus will be able to push damage. You naturally would always want to just get a crit when you deal the damage for 'free' rather than convert an existing damage into a crit at cost.... as long as your sure you can deal damage in the first place.

Deadeye is super interesting because it allows platforms that can maintain high uptime, but which can't generally create impact with their weapons, do some work. Obvious candidate is the RZ-1. Sure, your 'losing' damage by converting the hit or eye into a crit effect, but the RZ-1 does an average of .6 damage vs 3 green dice at range 2, even with focus. So much like how double modding has a disproportionate effect on high defense targets because you need to hit your upper end damage total to do damage consistently, Deadeye probably has a much stronger effect on very low attack ships because it allows you to convert hits that will actually miss into something meaningful.

I think this is a fantastic design space to explore, along with Aimbot. I wouldn't be surprised if Deadeye is basically never played on most ships but is sorta like Heroic on a lot of others. I am also really glad its 1 point, as that both makes it competitive with crack shot (which is only 1 guarenteed damage already, but damage is king. The fact you both pay only half the cost AND the effect can trigger every turn you shoot in theory is really strong), and makes it not really change any major breakpoints on many ships, much like heroic its basically a free impact upgrade.

Edited by dezzmont

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3 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I think this is a fantastic design space to explore, along with Aimbot. I wouldn't be surprised if Deadeye is basically never played on most ships but is sorta like Heroic on a lot of others. I am also really glad its 1 point, as that both makes it competitive with crack shot (which is only 1 guarenteed damage already, but damage is king. The fact you both pay only half the cost AND the effect can trigger every turn you shoot in theory is really strong), and makes it not really change any major breakpoints on many ships, much like heroic its basically a free impact upgrade.

My fear is: why would a Torrent ever take Dedicated over Deadeye? 

V19s can survive obnoxiously long, and the ability to whip out that one or two extra damage a game with Deadeye seems no brainier over Dedicated for the same price. 

When are they gonna wake up and make Dedicated free? 

And give every single clone pilot a talent slot because reasons? 

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1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

My fear is: why would a Torrent ever take Dedicated over Deadeye? 

V19s can survive obnoxiously long, and the ability to whip out that one or two extra damage a game with Deadeye seems no brainier over Dedicated for the same price. 

When are they gonna wake up and make Dedicated free? 

And give every single clone pilot a talent slot because reasons? 

I'm a bit confused. Dedicated is a good upgrade on the Blue Squadron Protector. It is easy to trigger and can save a better ship from a bad roll. I don't think Deadeye can compete with that.

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14 hours ago, Innese said:

Pulled off the Deadeye Shot dream the other day...

Concussion bombs snuck a card in on Vader, then Thane swooped in... Deadeye shot flipped the card (Direct Hit) and then Thane flipped it again.

I was wondering if Thane and dead eye would be a good combo... 

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2 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

I was wondering if Thane and dead eye would be a good combo... 

I usually tend to run Thane cheap as chips, with only Predator. I could probably see myself using this instead, but not if I'm intending to actually invest more points into him.

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9 hours ago, Bucknife said:

My fear is: why would a Torrent ever take Dedicated over Deadeye? 

V19s can survive obnoxiously long, and the ability to whip out that one or two extra damage a game with Deadeye seems no brainier over Dedicated for the same price. 

When are they gonna wake up and make Dedicated free? 

And give every single clone pilot a talent slot because reasons? 

I'm with @S4ul0 that I think Dedicated is a lot better.  One problem with a Torrent is that it's kind of tricky to convince an opponent to attack the obnoxiously tough Torrent at 27 points instead of the more important Jedi over there.  Dedicated helps with that.

Dedicated at 1 is fine, particularly now that the Talent clones aren't wicked overpriced like they were for so long.

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8 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

I'm a bit confused. Dedicated is a good upgrade on the Blue Squadron Protector. It is easy to trigger and can save a better ship from a bad roll. I don't think Deadeye can compete with that.

I guess they're just different issues. 

Is your squad built with an dominant jedi in mind? Or is your squad clone efficiency?

"I can't die" LAAT with deadeye clones sounds like it could be amazing. 

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19 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

It's something I'm considering putting on my RZ-2's if I have spare points  

I’m thinking of taking this and running with a generic list: 2x red experts w/ heroic, 3x green experts w/ heroic and deadeye shot.

Use the t70s to try and bruise up a target. When the rz2 has a good shot push more damage; when it’s got a shot that will probably miss anyway (like 1 hit against a 3 agi ship or something), try to flip a Spicy crit instead 

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I wonder if the TIE Advanced x1 is a good Deadeye platform, given its frequent access to crits.  Maarek's ability won't activate on a flipped card (except in rare edge cases where they have Hull Breach and you flip a direct hit), but it still gives him and other pilots the ability to slip a card flip through and still throw full damage at the target's defenses.  Maarek's advantage is initiative.  Zertik's ability could flip even more crits (or flip the direct hit again etc), and Ved's decent at aligning the bullseye against scrubs.  We don't hear much from those two so it could be neat for them to see a bit of play thanks to DES.

There's also the swarm potential... Anyone have high hopes for 5x Storm Squadron Pilot with Deadeye Shot being effective?

Edit: thinking about it further, Deadeye has an added advantage for TIE x1s because they're so lock-dependent.  If they get their lock that's great: +1 die and a crit to convert with Deadeye if able.  If they don't get their lock, they're rolling fewer dice and less likely to burst pass defenses, so spending on Deadeye is more likely matter.

Edited by Wazat

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1 hour ago, Wazat said:

I wonder if the TIE Advanced x1 is a good Deadeye platform, given its frequent access to crits

I think it might be OK on the x1, but for a different reason.  That is, infrequent access to 3 red dice.  Need to roll or focus/roll for safety or position and can't lock?  That 2-dice might come in handy now.

 

1 hour ago, Wazat said:

Edit: thinking about it further, Deadeye has an added advantage for TIE x1s because they're so lock-dependent.  If they get their lock that's great: +1 die and a crit to convert with Deadeye if able.  If they don't get their lock, they're rolling fewer dice and less likely to burst pass defenses, so spending on Deadeye is more likely matter.

Or I could just read your whole post before starting to reply.

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Upon reflection, I've realized converting the crit is a good idea even if the opponent won't be able to block it anyway.  For example, a Decimator or Lambda or X-Wing that isn't reinforced and does have a facedown damage card, and you're blasting them with Hit-Hit-Crit...

Almost always, it's worth it to simply convert the crit to flip a damage card, simply because it happens immediately (before your damage lands).  That facedown card could be a Hull Breach, which would be terrifying for them.  Your 3 hits could turn into 4, 5, 6+ with the right crit chains, and nearly a third of the deck lends itself to that.  It could be a Structural Damage to reduce their defense dice (if they have any) and push more damage through.

None of the damage cards will be actively bad for you save for some crazy edge cases (Viktor Hel gets a structural damage and rolls 1 die this round, stressing you; solution is if your shot will kill him regardless, then you just don't convert the crit).  There's generally not going to be a disadvantage to pushing the "crit" to the front like this.

 

On a separate note, I wonder if any primary-weapon-double-tappers could pull double duty, like Dengar and Quickdraw.  Likely too limited to be worth it?  Thane is clever fun and might just be a better option.

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6 hours ago, Wazat said:

Upon reflection, I've realized converting the crit is a good idea even if the opponent won't be able to block it anyway.  For example, a Decimator or Lambda or X-Wing that isn't reinforced and does have a facedown damage card, and you're blasting them with Hit-Hit-Crit...

Almost always, it's worth it to simply convert the crit to flip a damage card, simply because it happens immediately (before your damage lands).  That facedown card could be a Hull Breach, which would be terrifying for them.  Your 3 hits could turn into 4, 5, 6+ with the right crit chains, and nearly a third of the deck lends itself to that.  It could be a Structural Damage to reduce their defense dice (if they have any) and push more damage through.

None of the damage cards will be actively bad for you save for some crazy edge cases (Viktor Hel gets a structural damage and rolls 1 die this round, stressing you; solution is if your shot will kill him regardless, then you just don't convert the crit).  There's generally not going to be a disadvantage to pushing the "crit" to the front like this.

 

On a separate note, I wonder if any primary-weapon-double-tappers could pull double duty, like Dengar and Quickdraw.  Likely too limited to be worth it?  Thane is clever fun and might just be a better option.

So A-wings with Dead-Eye and Marksmanship coukd be interesting.

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