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Harraitmsp

Untouchable Space Marines

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I'm not saying it's impossible - I'm sure an Untouchable could be made into a Marine - I'm just saying that they wouldn't allow one to exist. They'd be weeded out before the first new organ was implanted.

BYE

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Bearing in mind that Space Marine Librarians are all sanctioned, whether came from the home world or from another planet and assigned to the Chapter they would have been to earth for checking. Same with unotuchables, any found would swept up into the Sisters of Silence or Culexus Assassin temple.

After all as rare as they are why would you risk them dying during the SM implant process.

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crisaron said:

Peacekeeper_b said:

 

Still, its more likely then female space marines.

 

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, I just fed the trolls.

 

 

 

You had lunch?

Ouch. But clever. (Especially as I was eating lunch when I read your reply)

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Lightbringer said:

 

It does seem a bit munchkin overkill...like players for Vampire:The Masquerade who wanted to play a vampire werewolf. Who was also a Mage. 

 

 

This, for me, though I do agree that there's no reason that it couldn't happen.  Of course, with Deathwatch now out I'm waiting to see people wondering if they could play an Untouchable Space Marine Librarian... in a dreadnought.

As to the signature, I'm reminded of this...

CircularReasoninggif.png

Sorta.

 

Kage

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H.B.M.C. said:

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, I just fed the trolls.



Speaking of which, I have a new sig. gran_risa.gif

BYE

 

 

 

 

I have one too.  ;)

 

 

Actually, I'll expand opon that: Fem Marines are an inevitability.  The reason is that GW doesn't sell minis to thier existing customers.  It is assumed that, as an existing customer, you will buy whatever they tell you to buy.  They're constantly trying to sell minis to people who are NOT exisiting customers.  Anyone who's worked in thier retail stores will tell you that this is thier policy in a nut shell. 

 

Space Marines are their primary sales pitch.  They are the iconic 40k army.  They appear on books they are not eve in.  They are the 40k Wolverine.

 

Marvel Comics has created a female Wolverine.  (For those that do not follow MC, I'm not joking)  The reason is that Marvel Comics realized that a little under half the nerds and geeks in the world are female.  This move has proven surprisingly successful.  She gets her own book this month. 

 

This is because tabletop games, comic books, and RPGs are a form of wish fulfillment.  Deep down at some point you want to be this person. 

 

How long is it before GW, as a for-profit corporation, gets the idea that more female gamers = more money?  And the silly part is that they can get them through the door through simply striking one paragraph and modeling a hand full of new torsos and legs.

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BaronIveagh said:

H.B.M.C. said:

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, I just fed the trolls.



Speaking of which, I have a new sig. gran_risa.gif

BYE

 

 

 

 

I have one too.  ;)

 

 

Actually, I'll expand opon that: Fem Marines are an inevitability.  The reason is that GW doesn't sell minis to thier existing customers.  It is assumed that, as an existing customer, you will buy whatever they tell you to buy.  They're constantly trying to sell minis to people who are NOT exisiting customers.  Anyone who's worked in thier retail stores will tell you that this is thier policy in a nut shell. 

 

Space Marines are their primary sales pitch.  They are the iconic 40k army.  They appear on books they are not eve in.  They are the 40k Wolverine.

 

Marvel Comics has created a female Wolverine.  (For those that do not follow MC, I'm not joking)  The reason is that Marvel Comics realized that a little under half the nerds and geeks in the world are female.  This move has proven surprisingly successful.  She gets her own book this month.

 

How long is it before GW, as a for-profit corporation, gets this idea? 

 

They certainly have had this idea before and they certainly have drawn their own conclusions. I'd be surprised if GW didn't discuss this in-depth at some point.

 

Alex

 

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Betrayer131 said:

 

I could be wrong, but dont space marines get some kind of psychic conditioning when they are recruited, like instant training?

If so, wouldnt being an Unntouchable prevent this?

 

 

 

Um, it varies from chapter to chapter, but it's stated that it's hypnotic rather then psychic.  It would defintly have to be a chapter that does not have librarians at all. 

 

 

 

@Alex: And the lower thier profit's get, the more they'll discuss it.   I'm told that the major stumbling block is that JJ is opposed to it.

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 The main problem would IMO be the statistics involved. The only things that Nulls automatically excel in is being unlikeable and being unaffected by psychic power. Neither of which are in any way connected to the likelihood of being recruited by a chapter as that usually depends on a potential recruit's martial prowess. Thus, the amount of Null Space Marines would be the intersection of human nulls (really, really few) and humans recruited by space marine chapters (also really, really few). So, considering there are about one million marines at large in the galaxy, it's probable none of them happen to be a null by accident. And as already noted, there are at least three organizations intent on sweeping up every null they can get their fingers on.

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Yeah, definitely have to agree with Cifer and Vip_chicken on this.

1. The rarity: a null who is also able to physically withstand implementation

2. The risk: a null is an excellent tool in and of themselves, and should not be thrown away or put at risk lightly. While I see the benefit of having a null space marine, I simply do not see it outweighing the risk of losing a null.

 

Basically:

Action:           Space Marine recruitment of null                                 Normal Recruitment of null

Outcome:      Null space marine (3)                                              Acolyte null/culexes assassin (2)

Risk:              Dead null (0)                                                              Acolyte null/culexes assassin (2)

Total value:                        3                                                                                      4

These make it to a point that it really would be something particularly rare to occur (as in, if it could happen, its probably only going to happen once). And the cynic in me is telling me that the player is trying to munchkin themselves to uberness.

 

On the mechanical side, if this was allowed, what cost would it be at? I really don't see the DH books background package costs being appropriate here with a SM character.

1000xp? 5000xp? No fate points? I really can't accept just handing it to em for 200 or 400 xp or whatever it is in DH.

 

 

 

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[vip_chicken said:

 I would say no.

Untouchables are extremely rare, and the ones that exist are found and made into something very specific. A marine is not one of those jobs. And its not like no one will notice their ability - where there are Space Marine chapters, there are Black Ships and all levels of scrutiny. Not that you need them - the space marines would identify the recruit and send word themselves.

Such is the rarity of untouchables, no one would risk the implantation process (many recruits dont live) to waste a valuable resource.

I'm not seeing this happening.

It also sounds like your player wants a lot of benefits from being an untouchable (complete psychic and warp immunity), for little sacrifice (some people dont like you much (-10 fellowship?)). You are going to want to scare the party with cool scenes with fighting against psykers and the like; but they will laugh as the psyker can not perform any task and you just beat them up.

All is not rosey with being an untouchable, and I am not referring to any fellowship or likability factor.  Consider the fact of no healing from psykers and no benefit from any faith related powers.  Also they could never go through a gate of infinity with a librarian, or any other possible benefit.

At least in the DH game I'm running the psyker healing is one of the most usefull things the characters have.

In fact I think the benefits (mostly only applying to demons and rogue psyker enemies) are not nearly as usefull as being able to be healed, etc.  You will always need healing, but you are unlikely to be fighting psykers/demons all the time, and most of the demon things will still affect you (the stuff that makes your blood leak out) along with all the indirect psyker powers.

You would absolutely feel cursed, not blessed, if you played an untouchable in one of my games.

I say let them play it, and then let the reality of it sink in afterwards.  I don't know why everyone sees it as such a benefit.

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KommissarK said:

Yeah, definitely have to agree with Cifer and Vip_chicken on this.

1. The rarity: a null who is also able to physically withstand implementation

2. The risk: a null is an excellent tool in and of themselves, and should not be thrown away or put at risk lightly. While I see the benefit of having a null space marine, I simply do not see it outweighing the risk of losing a null.

 

Basically:

Action:           Space Marine recruitment of null                                 Normal Recruitment of null

Outcome:      Null space marine (3)                                              Acolyte null/culexes assassin (2)

Risk:              Dead null (0)                                                              Acolyte null/culexes assassin (2)

Total value:                        3                                                                                      4

These make it to a point that it really would be something particularly rare to occur (as in, if it could happen, its probably only going to happen once). And the cynic in me is telling me that the player is trying to munchkin themselves to uberness.

 

On the mechanical side, if this was allowed, what cost would it be at? I really don't see the DH books background package costs being appropriate here with a SM character.

1000xp? 5000xp? No fate points? I really can't accept just handing it to em for 200 or 400 xp or whatever it is in DH.

I'd give it to him for free.  Then laugh inside about it all the time (as in should have given him exp back instead).

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FatPob said:

smacks of pure munchkinism to me. it seems no matter what the game offers, someone always wants something extra "to be a bit different".

I guess I am "one of those", who like to play something different, but I don't see where wanting to play something different equates to "munchkin" which I always thought to mean a combination that essentially breaks the balance of the rules by being overpowering.  I mean why even play an RPG if you don't want to "play" something different?  I play myself almost all the time as it is.

I can sort of see why people think untouchable is powerful, but I just see all the drawbacks as larger, not even counting the exp cost.

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I would give it for 500 xp and all cohesion lost while the null participates in squad mode is doubled from all sources. 

I haven't had a chance to read all the cohesion rules thoroughly  yet, so this might be extremely harsh or not harsh enough. I think a cohesion penalty could be the balancer.

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I may have missed it if anyone else as already examined this avenue of thought, so I'll apologize in advance if it already been brought up.

I'm no space marine scholar, but my understanding of their creation is that each space marine is implanted with a geneseed "attuned" to the founding primarch of their chapter, which is itself "attuned" to the the Emperor (who is perhaps the most powerful 'human' psyker in existence). If my base assumptions aren't completely off base, then it occurs to me that the viability of implanting any geneseed whose ultimate source is such a powerful psyker (whether it manifests psychic potential in its recipients or not - looking at you, Black Templars), it would be prone to such a high degree of failure as to be statistically impossible (on the order of only ever happening ONCE, EVER).

I'm going to go back and read over some of the fluff again and contemplate.

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I still haven't seen why people think this is so powerful. 

How often are you going to be hit with a psychic power by an enemy?

How often are you going to want to be healed by a psychic power?

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BaronIveagh said:

H.B.M.C. said:

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, I just fed the trolls.



Speaking of which, I have a new sig. gran_risa.gif

BYE

 

 

 

 

I have one too.  ;)

 

 

Actually, I'll expand opon that: Fem Marines are an inevitability.  The reason is that GW doesn't sell minis to thier existing customers.  It is assumed that, as an existing customer, you will buy whatever they tell you to buy.  They're constantly trying to sell minis to people who are NOT exisiting customers.  Anyone who's worked in thier retail stores will tell you that this is thier policy in a nut shell. 

 

Space Marines are their primary sales pitch.  They are the iconic 40k army.  They appear on books they are not eve in.  They are the 40k Wolverine.

 

Marvel Comics has created a female Wolverine.  (For those that do not follow MC, I'm not joking)  The reason is that Marvel Comics realized that a little under half the nerds and geeks in the world are female.  This move has proven surprisingly successful.  She gets her own book this month. 

 

This is because tabletop games, comic books, and RPGs are a form of wish fulfillment.  Deep down at some point you want to be this person. 

 

How long is it before GW, as a for-profit corporation, gets the idea that more female gamers = more money?  And the silly part is that they can get them through the door through simply striking one paragraph and modeling a hand full of new torsos and legs.

This issue has been around for 20+ years, and we still don't have female marines.  It's probably one of the reasons they came up with the Sisters of Battle, and you're fooling yourself if you think they are going to risk alienating large numbers of current players by adding a whole new army line (something they rarely do in general) to appeal to a fringe group that actually wants female marines.   I'm sure it also hasn't escaped their notice that Sisters of Battle have never really sold that well.  If they were to retro-fit female marines into the game they risk huge losses.  GW generally plays it safe.  Female marines are far from an inevitability.  In fact, I would say that it's a huge long shot.

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Could ya double check to see if librarians have a healing power (I didn't see any)?

And psychic powers can easily get nasty, along with having the whole daemons dislike your very presence deal.

It sounds more to me that negative aspects of it have come up specifically in the games you have played, rather than a larger more objective look at things. In DW, I would imagine the most healing comes from apothecaries, rather than librarians.

 

I don't have my DH supplements in front of me, can nulls ignore warp weapons?

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BaronIveagh said:

H.B.M.C. said:

 

Peacekeeper_b said:

Thats right ladies and gentlemen, I just fed the trolls.



Speaking of which, I have a new sig. gran_risa.gif

BYE

 

 

 

 

I have one too.  ;)

 

 

Actually, I'll expand opon that: Fem Marines are an inevitability.  The reason is that GW doesn't sell minis to thier existing customers.  It is assumed that, as an existing customer, you will buy whatever they tell you to buy.  They're constantly trying to sell minis to people who are NOT exisiting customers.  Anyone who's worked in thier retail stores will tell you that this is thier policy in a nut shell. 

 

Space Marines are their primary sales pitch.  They are the iconic 40k army.  They appear on books they are not eve in.  They are the 40k Wolverine.

 

Marvel Comics has created a female Wolverine.  (For those that do not follow MC, I'm not joking)  The reason is that Marvel Comics realized that a little under half the nerds and geeks in the world are female.  This move has proven surprisingly successful.  She gets her own book this month. 

 

This is because tabletop games, comic books, and RPGs are a form of wish fulfillment.  Deep down at some point you want to be this person. 

 

How long is it before GW, as a for-profit corporation, gets the idea that more female gamers = more money?  And the silly part is that they can get them through the door through simply striking one paragraph and modeling a hand full of new torsos and legs.

Comparing GW and Marvel comics is apples and oranges.  Marvel frequently comes out with all sorts of different or alternate versions of characters.  Female spider man, 1600s xmen, zombie heroes, etc etc. 

GW has marines, angry marines, holy angry marines, closeted marines, and marines with drinking problems.  Variety, yes, but nothing on the scale of Marvel (and nowhere near as dumb as some of their alternate worlds). 

Do I especially care if marines are male or female?  No.  Well, at least I didn't, until I started reading some of the asinine "Marines can be women in canon" arguments on this site.  Now I'm firmly in the marines are male camp.  GW says so, FFG says so, that's that.  If you want to play with female marines, go right ahead, but you're not playing in the 40k world... maybe in an alternate universe where marines can be female, orks are hippies, eldar are savages wielding choppas, and necrons are clowns. 

-Thulis

PS Nice immature sig comment - a lot of us nerds have wives, kids and aren't the least bit intimidated by women. 

 

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I can't see an untouchable becoming a marine for the reasons already stated.  Untouchables are insanely rare, much more so than psykers (already rare).  The odds of an untouchable being found as a suitable recruit as a marine, then surviving any trials the chapter throws at him, then surviving the surgeries would be astronomically small.  And as stated above, his squad mates would be uncomfortable as hell around him. 

On a lot of the savage worlds marines recruit from, I could see the natives killing untouchables on sight, considering them (possibly rightly) as abominations. 

-Thulis

 

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