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Comm

Maester Wendamyr and He calls it thinking

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Hi,

I know the answer has already be given somewhere, but I couldn't find it on these boards. I'm quite sure it was on tzumainn, but the site is now down (I'm really missing it BTW).

Maester Wendamyr

Response: Kneel Master Wendamyr to save a Greyjoy character from being killed or discarded. Then, you may kneel 2 influence or kneel a Learned character to stand that character.

So, if my opponent wants to use Maester Wendamyr to save a character, may I cancel it with "He calls it thinking" before my opponent kneels 2 influence to stand the character?

In fact, I'm a bit confused with the timing of effects containing a "Then", like Wendamyr's one.

Is it something like this:

Step 1: Initiate a "kill a Greyjoy character effect"

Step 2: Save/Cancel vs. "kill a Greyjoy character effect"

Step 2.1.1: Initiate "save a Greyjoy character from being killed or discarded"
Step 2.2.1: Save/Cancel vs. "save a Greyjoy character from being killed or discarded" (this is where I may use "He calls it thinking")
Step 2.3.1: Resolve "save a Greyjoy character from being killed or discarded", if it hasn't been canceled

Step 2.1.2: Initiate "stand that character", if the first part of the effect has not been canceled, and the cost has been paid (kneel 2 influence or a Learned char)
Step 2.2.2: Save/Cancel vs. "stand that character"
Step 2.3.2: Resolve "stand that character"

Step 4: Passives

Step 5: Responses

Step 6: End

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Your difficulty seems to be coming from the fact that you are treating the "save" and the "then stand" as two separate effects - or, more to the point, as having two separate triggers/initiation. That's not how you do it. Both the "save" and the "stand" have the same initiation. So if you use He Calls It Thinking to cancel Maester Wendamyr (the save effect does not have an influence cost, so that is perfectly legal), it cancels the entire effect - including the "then stand" part.

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Well, what made me think wrong is the fact that there are 2 separate costs in Wendamyr's effect (one is "kneel Wendamyr, the other one is "kneel 2 influence or a Learned char"). So I thought there was 2 points of initiation.

So, if I follow you well, there are indeed 2 effects, with the same point of initiation.

So Wendamyr's controller has to pay the 2 costs first, which will initiate the 2 effects (step 2.1).
Save/cancel may be triggered vs. any of these 2 effects (step 2.2).
Then the effects are resolved (step 2.3) :
- if the 1st effect has not been canceled in step 2.2, the character is saved.
- if the 1st effect has been successful and the 2nd effect has not been canceled in step 2.2, the character stand.

However, if I cancel the 1st effect, then the effect is not successful (i.e. the character is not saved) and the play restrictions for the 2nd effect are not valid anymore (because of the "then") so it will not be successful either (i.e the character doesn't stand).

What I find odd here is that you have to pay the cost of the second effect before knowing that you would be allowed to (i.e. before the resolution of the first effect).

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Comm said:

What I find odd here is that you have to pay the cost of the second effect before knowing that you would be allowed to (i.e. before the resolution of the first effect).

You are ignoring the nature of "then." The "then stand" part of the effect actually has an additional play restriction on it that the "save" part must be successful in order for it to resolve. That play restriction cannot be known in the initiation during Step 1. The other thing to keep in mind is that the 2-influence to stand the character is optional. Even if the save is successful and you have 2 standing influence on the table, you do not have to kneel the influence and can choose to leave the character kneeling. Or what if the "then" part had you choose a target (there are "then" effects that do this, and there were no legal targets to be chosen? Would you be unable to trigger the effect for the part before the "then"?

So with "then" effects, you can see that the normal rules around initiating the effect start to fall apart, what with the optional costs and the conditional play restrictions, and conditional target requirements. It has been ruled that play restrictions and target restrictions specific to the "then" part of the effect do not stop you from triggering the effect as a whole for the part before the "then." This means that any costs or targets specific to the "then" part of the effect are paid/chosen as part of the resolution of the effect (Step 3) rather than the initiation of the effect in Step 1. The conditional nature of "then" effects - in that they require the first part of the effect to be successful before you could technically initiate them in the first place - makes this ruling necessary, and considerably cleaner.

Because of 

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ktom said:

 

Because of 

 

 

(NOTE: I edited this a bit after thinking about it more)

ktom, did you have more to say here?  From what you have written so far in answering Comm I am still a bit uncertain of how this card interaction works.  Here is how I interpreted your answer:

"Then" effects involving choices ask for those choices to be made in the midst of their resolution.  At this point (during resolution) it is too late to cancel the effect.  Thus cancel effects use only the part of the effect before the "Then" in order to check that their play restrictions are met.

So in the case that Comm asked about, He Calls It Thinking can be used to cancel Maester Wendamyr's ability because at this point the effect is essentially just "Kneel Maester Wendamyr to save a HG character, and maybe do some other stuff" and so does not have an influence cost (play restriction for He Calls It Thinking).  If He Calls It Thinking is not played, then the Wendamyr player has the option of kneeling two influence to stand the character.  At this point, the effect is resolving and can no long be canceled.

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That is indeed how it works. The influence cost to stand is not paid during the effect's initiation in Step 1, so it does not count against the play restrictions of He Calls It Thinking in Step 2. By the time it is paid in Step 3, it is too late to cancel the effect, anyway.

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OK, I understand.

So the resolution of the "then" part of the effect is kind of "appended" to the resolution of the "before then" part of the effect, in Step 3.

And it is too late to cancel the effect, because cancels can only be triggered in Step 2.

 

So, as far as I understand, it would also be too late to save from something described in the "then" part of the effect, because saves can only be triggered in Step 2.

This would mean that it is not possible to save a character from returning to its owner's hand when A Game of Cyvasse is resolving. Is this true?

A Game of Cyvasse
Challenges:
Each player must choose and kneel a character with an I icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand.

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This is one of those places where things are often handled different in practice. In general, the feeling is that there should always be an opportunity to save, even if the timing doesn't quite work out. Rather than saying "it is too late to cancel the effect anyway" in Step 3, it is more accurate to say that the save or cancel for the effect has already taken place. 

What it really comes down to is an "it works because it works" kind of ruling. The ruling and practice is generally that the conditions of the "then" part of an effect are not considered when initiating an effect (eg, target not available/optional cost not paid) and therefore do not count when looking at the restrictions of something trying to cancel that effect. However, if something potentially needs to be saved, that part is considered. It really doesn't make any sense (or is at least inconsistent) timing-wise. But by ruling, you are allowed to save from something in a "then" effect, even though the timing isn't strictly kosher.

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ktom said:

Your difficulty seems to be coming from the fact that you are treating the "save" and the "then stand" as two separate effects - or, more to the point, as having two separate triggers/initiation. That's not how you do it. Both the "save" and the "stand" have the same initiation. So if you use He Calls It Thinking to cancel Maester Wendamyr (the save effect does not have an influence cost, so that is perfectly legal), it cancels the entire effect - including the "then stand" part.

This is clearly. But if meet "Assertion of Might" (KotSea F41), and opponent choose kneel a War character to trigger effect. May I use "He calls it thinking" to cancel it? Because "Assertion of Might" can use influence or kneel character to trigger effect.

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The link provided is not 100% clear on the Assertion of Might question.

If an effect has more than one option for a cost (eg, "kneel 4 influence or a WAR character"), you look at the cost that was actually paid when determining the "without an influence cost" play restriction on a card like He Calls It Thinking. If your opponent pays for Assertion of Might by kneeling influence, you cannot use He Calls It Thinking. If they kneel the character to pay for it, you can.

An option that was not taken does not impact the play restrictions of other cards. For example, if a card said "choose 1: stand a character or draw a card" and I used it to stand a character, I could not then use a Response that said "after a player draws a card." The same idea is applied to optional costs.

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