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maniakmedic

Quicksilver!

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1 hour ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

Quicksilver has upgrade cards in his 15 that increase his stats. 

For Always Be Running to be efficient, you need 3 atk/thw, which means both the sig upgrade and an aspect one, or temporary stat bonus like Max Velocity or the Leadership ones.

Im just saying that it is going to be more difficult to get there with Protection.

I'm not down on Protection, I think it will be one of his best aspects, but I'm just listing the tradeoffs.

 

In other aspects, sure you get the free defense ready but since your def is rather low, you are still going to take a bunch of damage.

 

Edited by Deadwolf

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14 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

I'm quite certain he is going to be the most powerful 4-player Defensive Character. He will be the first who can Defend twice every round, and potentially more times with the help of other cards.

to be fair, with very little setup Black Widow can do this on steroids. Throw her up with Attacrobatics as just one obvious usage...and not hard to get her up 2-3 times a turn in multiplayer. Not saying I have done it just saying I have heard about it :-)

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9 hours ago, darthweasel2 said:

to be fair, with very little setup Black Widow can do this on steroids. Throw her up with Attacrobatics as just one obvious usage...and not hard to get her up 2-3 times a turn in multiplayer. Not saying I have done it just saying I have heard about it 🙂

It requires having the right cards in her hand, some of which are Defensive cards that Quicksilver has access to. Quicksilver does it for free, every round. It is just what he does.

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6 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

It requires having the right cards in her hand, some of which are Defensive cards that Quicksilver has access to. Quicksilver does it for free, every round. It is just what he does.

actually.,..requires having them on the board for Black Widow. Of course, since that is sort of her gimmick, if they are not there a person is probably playing her wrong anyway. With Safe House and even modest planning it is pretty easy for her to be chilling with Attacrobatics, Grappling Hook, Target Acquired, Espionage, Indomitable and Unflappable....my brothers and buddies have a running joke that they leave two spaces for me for all the cards I have in play...

For sure, Quicksilver can do it for free, and do it well, no argument there.  The "on steroids"part for me is because in a deck designed for it, Black Widow can do it ranging from "almost as well" to "even better because she is doing damage to the enemy to ready herself" and can ready herself multiple times also.

Different aims...similar results. Both have something to recommend themselves. I actually kind of want to try running the two of them, popping up over and over and over...would be pretty funny

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40 minutes ago, darthweasel2 said:

actually.,..requires having them on the board for Black Widow. Of course, since that is sort of her gimmick, if they are not there a person is probably playing her wrong anyway. With Safe House and even modest planning it is pretty easy for her to be chilling with Attacrobatics, Grappling Hook, Target Acquired, Espionage, Indomitable and Unflappable....my brothers and buddies have a running joke that they leave two spaces for me for all the cards I have in play...

For sure, Quicksilver can do it for free, and do it well, no argument there.  The "on steroids"part for me is because in a deck designed for it, Black Widow can do it ranging from "almost as well" to "even better because she is doing damage to the enemy to ready herself" and can ready herself multiple times also.

Different aims...similar results. Both have something to recommend themselves. I actually kind of want to try running the two of them, popping up over and over and over...would be pretty funny

I hear what you're saying, but Quicksilver is still far better at doing it.

For Black Widow to be able to, she has to have a bunch of cards out. She has to play those cards, which costs part of her hand to do so. She also can't do it every round, as it uses up the cards, then she has to get them back into her hand, and then play it again. If you're really lucky, you can defend twice every round, agreed, but it costs you resources to do so.

Quicksilver just does it, straight up, for free. This leaves the cards he has in his hand to do other things, like potentially blocking even more, stunning the villain, etc.

With Quicksilver, in a 4-player game, I can see Quicksilver taking care of 3 Villain activations every turn, easily. Not just every now and then, but turn after turn. At the moment, Cap does it easily at 2 Villain activations, and sometimes 3, but Quicksilver will be 3 easily, and sometimes 4. Black Widow is a 2 most time, and seldom 3.

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Quicksilver also gives stuff up to defend multiple times (and Un-upgraded his defence is pretty weak).

He gets 1 free defence every turn which is really good, but if he defends a second time he goes into the hero phase exhausted which means he can’t use his hero ability for a second time in a round (without other cards invested)...

I think he’s definitely interesting. It may be because Aggression is my favourite aspect, but I like the idea of him reducing damage against himself in the villain phase, double thwarting for 2 in the hero phase and dealing damage via playing attack events. He’s very flexible though, so I can definitely see builds with all 4 aspects...

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1 hour ago, FearLord said:

Quicksilver also gives stuff up to defend multiple times (and Un-upgraded his defence is pretty weak).

He gets 1 free defence every turn which is really good, but if he defends a second time he goes into the hero phase exhausted which means he can’t use his hero ability for a second time in a round (without other cards invested)...

I think he’s definitely interesting. It may be because Aggression is my favourite aspect, but I like the idea of him reducing damage against himself in the villain phase, double thwarting for 2 in the hero phase and dealing damage via playing attack events. He’s very flexible though, so I can definitely see builds with all 4 aspects...

Yeah, but every hero gives up attacking by defending, that weakness isn't unique to him.

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8 minutes ago, DarthofZA said:

Yeah, but every hero gives up attacking by defending, that weakness isn't unique to him.

The point is, he’s giving up doing it twice, which is unique to him (at least as a free action).

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without the cards, Quicksilver defends for 1 stands up, defends for 1.

Black Widow defends for 2.

Unless the attacks are small, not necessarily that big an advantage.

 

If Black Widow DOESN'T have those cards, my argument would be it is a poorly built deck.  I mulligan and hand clear pretty aggressively for synth suit and it is unusual to not have some combo of that, Attacrobatics, Grappling hook by first or at worst second turn. For sure, in those turns Quicksilver will have the advantage. Once I get a small set of key cards, I can pretty routinely keep Widow up, prepped, and little to no damage.  As others have pointed out, her defenses are stronger as well. I think both have their uses, I just love damaging the villain once, twice, three times in his turn and being ready to do it again almost instantly.

 

Quicksilver, a defense of one...I will have to see, but it feels like he is going to take a lot of damage, so he is going to require the same build up cards.  At the same time, for me, a well built Quicksilver should have little to no trouble getting to those cards. Same aggressive mulligans to get to his cards. If his role is defending for everyone, he should be going hard for the Armored Vest, Electrostatic Armor, Unflappable against some enemies...I have never really found the need to build a strong argument as going all the way back to Ultimate Combat (first CCG I played...that dates me!!!) if a deck is designed to do something, anything that keeps it from doing that shouldn't be there.

One probable drawback I can see is will also have to flip down to heal a lot more, although if the groups are built carefully with a good mix a group can do a ton of damage in 4 turns. There are some matchups I think he will be far more valuable pinging tough cards off of enemies. That remains to be played instead of theory-hammered and of course is part of what will differentiate some of the stronger players from some of the weaker ones (I once had a player in my group playing a deck I had built, he wanted to play that hero; it was a leadership deck. He did not play a single ally the entire game. I asked him why...he said there was always something he wanted to play more. He now plays a Spiderman Protection deck with just 1 ally in it...the required one.)

For either one of them a set of indomitable, unflappable, armored vest, electrostatic armor, desperate defense is going to be strong and either will be able to ready at will, he doing it once via ability and relying on cards the rest of the time. Without boosts, his sole advantage on that front, at first blush, seems to be two separate 1 Def defenses. It is good, against something like Ultron it will be amazing. Against something like Crossbones that has a weapon or two...it is generally not going to be helpful at all. Against Absorbing Man I can see it being a slight advantage.  

 

As a dedicated defender, I feel like Black Widow doing damaged will, for my playstyle, be much more effective at it as she will be doing 1-7 points of damage as a defender pretty much every turn. (I love when the villain pops up a 3 boost...here, have 4 back buddy).

 

Ultimately I think there will be a lot of people who prefer Quicksilver, a few who prefer Widow, and some that prefer neither for the role, and a lot of it will come down to playstyle. I definitely see you working and there is some real potential to have him defending for 2,4,5 at a pop, pop back up and defend for 2 or 3 and I look forward to seeing some of the decks. And of course I will be playing both from time to time because I am me....

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The problem is, once you use Grappling Hook and Acrobatics, they're back in your discard pile. If you're planning on using them every turn, that is 2 cards and 3 resources just to get them into play (and this doesn't include trying to make sure they're in your hand).

Quicksilver's defense might be 1, but you can very quickly get it up to 3 with Accelerated Reflex and Armored Vest. From this point, it remains 3. Those cards are upgrades that stay out.

Now you still have your full hand every turn to play other cards, on top of being able to defend at twice every turn.

Then you still have Maximum Velocity to boost your Defense to 5. You can keep a Defensive Stance out for when a big damage comes in, and Electrostatic Armor (to essentially get a retaliate 1), and Unflappable. You've also kept your hand free so if you can play Iron Fist, who will stop an attack for 3 rounds in a row.

With Black Widow, you are using your hand to get those prep cards out that she needs to be the big team viable Blocker. With Quicksilver, your hand is free to compliment an already big team viable blocker.

 

Edited by DarthofZA

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2 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

The problem is, once you use Grappling Hook and Acrobatics, they're back in your discard pile. If you're planning on using them every turn, that is 2 cards and 3 resources just to get them into play (and this doesn't include trying to make sure they're in your hand).

Quicksilver's defense might be 1, but you can very quickly get it up to 3 with Accelerated Reflex and Armored Vest. From this point, it remains 3. Those cards are upgrades that stay out.

Now you still have your full hand every turn to play other cards, on top of being able to defend at twice every turn.

Then you still have Maximum Velocity to boost your Defense to 5. You can keep a Defensive Stance out for when a big damage comes in, and Electrostatic Armor (to essentially get a retaliate 1), and Unflappable. You've also kept your hand free so if you can play Iron Fist, who will stop an attack for 3 rounds in a row.

With Black Widow, you are using your hand to get those prep cards out that she needs to be the big team viable Blocker. With Quicksilver, your hand is free to compliment an already big team viable blocker.

 

Have you played much Protection Widow? There's a few major things you're not considering:

#1, those prep cards do something. They don't *just* let her defend. They also deal damage, cancel effects, stun minions etc. Her having crazy defense in Protection is a bonus for doing everything else she's already doing.

#2, most of her readying comes from her preparation cards with Synth Suit, so while they aren't permanent she can set them up in advance. Depending on circumstances, she can stack multiple turns worth of cards which greatly minimises the 'opportunity cost' of playing them. 

#3, she's got two reducers for Preparations, plus an effective reducer with her alter ego ability. And the cards themselves are generally cheap; once she's set up she often won't be paying much from hand to to trigger them.  

Now Quicksilver may end up being better (particularly since we've still got to see the rest of the cards in the pack), but it feels like you're downplaying Widow here to talk him up. E.g. 'You can keep a Defensive Stance out for when a big damage comes in, and Electrostatic Armor (to essentially get a retaliate 1), and Unflappable. You've also kept your hand free so if you can play Iron Fist, who will stop an attack for 3 rounds in a row.' all applies to Widow just as much as it does to Quicksilver. 

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1 minute ago, Abyss said:

Have you played much Protection Widow? There's a few major things you're not considering:

#1, those prep cards do something. They don't *just* let her defend. They also deal damage, cancel effects, stun minions etc. Her having crazy defense in Protection is a bonus for doing everything else she's already doing.

#2, most of her readying comes from her preparation cards with Synth Suit, so while they aren't permanent she can set them up in advance. Depending on circumstances, she can stack multiple turns worth of cards which greatly minimises the 'opportunity cost' of playing them. 

#3, she's got two reducers for Preparations, plus an effective reducer with her alter ego ability. And the cards themselves are generally cheap; once she's set up she often won't be paying much from hand to to trigger them.  

Now Quicksilver may end up being better (particularly since we've still got to see the rest of the cards in the pack), but it feels like you're downplaying Widow here to talk him up. E.g. 'You can keep a Defensive Stance out for when a big damage comes in, and Electrostatic Armor (to essentially get a retaliate 1), and Unflappable. You've also kept your hand free so if you can play Iron Fist, who will stop an attack for 3 rounds in a row.' all applies to Widow just as much as it does to Quicksilver. 

I don't think Widow is a weak defender. But when you're playing 4-player, and you're carrying the role of Defender, things are a little different.

 

#1 - Yes, her cards can do others, but when you're trying to play the role of defender, how much damage you're doing is irrelevant. If your job is to defend, and you're failing to defend, no one cares that you managed to do a little damage as well.

#2 - If you're expected to defend multiple times every turn, you're not going to really be able to stack those prep cards in advance. As Widow, I don't play through my entire deck every second turn, so I'm not going to be able to average those prep cards every turn. I'm still in the position where I'm required to get those cards into my hand, and having to pay for them.

#3 - If you're flipping to Alter-Ego, that is a whole round where you're not able to play the role of defender.

bonus #4 - Those extras don't really apply near as well to Black Widow, as she is in a position where you're already having to pay for her signature cards (and even if you have resource generators for them, you're still using those cards to be played so less cards for energy in your hands), so you can't afford to make those decisions as well as Quicksliver can.

I'm not saying Black Widow is useless by any stretch, but my point absolutely stands, and I don't feel like you have actually offered a rebuttal to it. In a 4-player game, as a Defender, Quicksilver is going to be a step above any of the other heroes. That isn't saying he is broken. If I'm playing 2 players, or potentially even 3, I would still rather play Cap for the Defender role (or Strange Leadership) (this might change once I've played Quicksilver). 

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Looking at your post, I was thinking in more general terms (as we usually don't play with such defined roles). So I see what you're saying in terms of that specific use, focusing solely as a defender in large games, rather than more general play.

I have a feeling people might find Quicksilver a little underwhelming in some cases. 

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7 hours ago, DarthofZA said:

The problem is, once you use Grappling Hook and Acrobatics, they're back in your discard pile. If you're planning on using them every turn, that is 2 cards and 3 resources just to get them into play (and this doesn't include trying to make sure they're in your hand).

Quicksilver's defense might be 1, but you can very quickly get it up to 3 with Accelerated Reflex and Armored Vest. From this point, it remains 3. Those cards are upgrades that stay out.

Now you still have your full hand every turn to play other cards, on top of being able to defend at twice every turn.

Then you still have Maximum Velocity to boost your Defense to 5. You can keep a Defensive Stance out for when a big damage comes in, and Electrostatic Armor (to essentially get a retaliate 1), and Unflappable. You've also kept your hand free so if you can play Iron Fist, who will stop an attack for 3 rounds in a row.

With Black Widow, you are using your hand to get those prep cards out that she needs to be the big team viable Blocker. With Quicksilver, your hand is free to compliment an already big team viable blocker.

 

she has two copies of each...and Safe House...getting them back and in play is no problem for her. Hilariously, I look at it as a massive benefit when her obligation pops up, it is a free turn of getting paid to put a prep in play and easy access to a key one...and I don't plan to play them every turn, I plan to play them as needed.

I do see the slight advantage to Quicksilver on defense getting 2 3 defenses as opposed to Black Widow getting 2 3 defenses but having to do damage and exhaust Synth Suit (because she cannot use synth suit unless she uses a preparation...and if she uses a preparation she does damage) just as I see the advantage of Black Widow who, should she have had to exhaust for some reason, is able to pop up by popping Counterintelligence as just one scenario I have run into a few times. She plays all the cards you mentioned except Maximum Velocity so he has no advantage there.

Of all the scenarios currently, I see two where he has the advantage as a dedicated defender: Ultron where his popgun defense can nullify a couple drones (and on his turn if he can find a way to stand up which should not be hard, he can take out a couple...something currently only Black Panther and Captain America can easily do, though they do it on defense at cost of taking a damage) and Absorbing Man to keep those undefended penalties from going off.

While I think he will be fine as a large group defender, I think his value will be much higher as a multi-tool...his ability to do it in every phase seems far more valuable than having to get 5 cards out and get them back out in your scenario...but so far without the ability to go get those cards that we have seen...I see where you are coming from, I think he may have some value in that regard, I just have yet to see anyplace he has the advantage OTHER than "without setup I can defend twice for Defense 1". With setup, many heroes defend multiple times a turn for a lot, he has just the one time advantage that requires buildup to get to wherever the others already are,  and when Groot comes out, he will put all current protection options to shame.  He will not even care about readying :-)

 

I clearly see you are excited about Quicksilver and that's great. Have a ton of fun with him my friend, from everything I have seen, every hero they have put out so far has had ways to build that are a ton of fun and can be made effective, and you definitely have a path you plan to go down and I think that is great. It also highlights one of my favorite things about the game...you can build a dedicated protection Quicksilver, I can build a dedicated Protection Black Widow, John the Dog-Walker can build a protection Black Panther,  all can be widely different and super effective in different ways. I have played games where it was "If you are not playing this deck built this way, you might do ok in swiss but after the cut you might as well scoop". Those games suck. The fact I see about 12 great ways to build Quicksilver...okay, pretty much every hero less maybe Hulk...that is nothing but a good thing.

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