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That Blasted Samophlange

Fury of the Empire (TIE Brute article)

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Like I said earlier, the mass disagreement on what price it could be indicates to me that we really can't predict anything, because this is sorta an unknown aspect of FFG's pricing philosophy.

We know Ion damage is considered an upside on a hypothetical 4 dice range 2-1 canon with upside. We also know its considered an upgrade on the HLC. Its a VERY large upgrade on turrets as we know. On torps is a downgrade, which indicates to me that FFG values the ability to get to 4 red dice very highly, and considers 4 ion dice to be not much better than 3, which sorta scans. Overal it seems like being able to 'push past' 3 base damage dice on a range 2 attack is at a premium in FFG's eyes. All of this is evidence that the fact it is 'only' 3 dice will keep the price lower.

Conversely, maybe this is considered 'better' than the HLC because of the wider angle, despite the HLC allowing you to hit 4 dice. It might be intended as a HLC 'sidegrade' because they want long range canons that are pure damage but don't want to lower the HLC's cost more, at which point it might sit at 6. I doubt it would go higher, because there is no way access to the 3rd range bracket is worth more than 3 times as much as autoblasters, but maybe they DON'T want to push long range canons and this is going to avoid 'stepping on the HLCs toes.'

There are strong arguments to be made for a LOT of price points, because its the kinda effect that really doesn't have a great 1:1 corollary in the slot it is in, and stuff in other slots can either range from 'its generally not expensive to get a 3 dice range 2-3 attack' to 'it is VERY expensive to upgrade your long range damage.'

I am personally thinking 'there is no way in **** they are more worried about this being spammed than ion cannons' camp. But 'this is a better HLC' camp is a pretty realistic reality to live in too. We just gotta see what timeline we end up on. What we really might be seeing here is how comfortable FFG is going to be making canons 'about' control effects, vs wanting to make attractive damage canons so that they can make canon synergy tools. 

Edited by dezzmont

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6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

IMHO, "It does more damage than Ion Cannon" is a pretty dang compelling reason for it to cost more.

  • Focused 2 Dice primary weapon expected total hits vs 2 green dice: 0.850
  • Focused Ion Cannon expected total hits vs 2 green dice: 0.839
  • Focused SLC expected total hits vs 2 green dice: 1.531

That's a bit deceptive - Focused Ion Cannon expected total hits vs 2 green dice is still 1.531. That just translates into 1 non-crit damage, and 0.531 ion tokens. So you're getting damage through, and you have a better than even chance of controlling where the target moves next turn. And if you control where your target is moving next turn, you don't have to guess where to set your own maneuvers to - you can focus fire and dodge arcs all very easily, with the potential for a lot more than just 1.531 damage the next turn as a result.

It's also the case that control is a game element that many players don't like playing against, so regardless of its raw power, it's in FFG's interest to limit just how much of it can be deployed.

6 hours ago, Sciencius said:

While I like your step-by-step analysis, and I am not entirely disagreeing with many of your points, I would be careful by using the cost of a unique title which has a similar effect as a point measurement for an upper limit to what a non-unique and "spammable" weapon should cost at maximum. If the punishing one title was non-unique I would be flying tripple jumpmasters all day long. Thus I dont agree that the upper limit is 6 points or that the cannon would be dead in the water at higher points. The range 3 band is considerably larger than bulls-eye, and I would take this any day over HLC on a 2 dice ship. if points permitted in the list. 

I'll grant that the comparison to a unique title does make it a bit fuzzier. It was pretty much the only upgrade where there was a fairly straight-forward primary attack boost.

At this point, I am convinced that it could go to 7 points, but I'd still wonder if it wasn't just more worth it to take the Ion Cannon at that price, instead. At 8 points, I might as well take both Autoblasters and an HLC. At 9, and I could take both Autoblasters and the Ion Cannon. So I guess I'll put an absolute hard max at 9 points, but find it pretty unlikely it would go higher than 7.

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An important piece of this cannon is also the fact, it has a full front arc. I know, I know... Mentioned before a few times. But... It means, it will work with a couple more talents, that the HLC does not. Outmaneuver for one. It's not much, but still something. That is why I think, we are looking at 5-6 points. HLC is a die more, which is massive, but is limited by the Bullseye Arc. On the other hand it can fit on a lot of small ships, which can aim the arc without many problems.

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3 hours ago, Schanez said:

An important piece of this cannon is also the fact, it has a full front arc. I know, I know... Mentioned before a few times. But... It means, it will work with a couple more talents, that the HLC does not. Outmaneuver for one. It's not much, but still something. That is why I think, we are looking at 5-6 points. HLC is a die more, which is massive, but is limited by the Bullseye Arc. On the other hand it can fit on a lot of small ships, which can aim the arc without many problems.

But it also turns off a lot of talents, as a lot are primary weapon only.

Honestly 6, maaaaybe 7 at a push is the most I'd pay for this cannon. 

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So I was hoping this thing was just going to be a really cheap Cannon carrier.  Like a TIE version of a Scyk.  But it seems like it's going to be way too heavy for that.

Seems more like a TIE Bomber with cannons instead of ordnance.

Oh well, not really complaining, because it means that design space is still open for the TIE Hunter to fill that role.

Edited by DarthEnderX

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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but if the TIE/rb has a primary turret weapon and has to treat any equipped cannons as turret, then would you need separate turret indicator tokens for each?  Or are they assumed to point the same direction, and you would have to announce whether you're firing from your primary vs. your equipped cannon upgrade?  

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9 hours ago, Pazu2016 said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but if the TIE/rb has a primary turret weapon and has to treat any equipped cannons as turret, then would you need separate turret indicator tokens for each?  Or are they assumed to point the same direction, and you would have to announce whether you're firing from your primary vs. your equipped cannon upgrade?  

The cannon arc will match the turret indicator with one exception (for now) hlc has a bullseye arc it will be separate from the turret indicator. 

Now that being said autoblasters is kind of an exception because the front will have access to bullseye and the rear arc wont.  

It is a good question and I wouldnt be shocked to see an updated rules reference with this wave.

Edited by reqent
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On 9/18/2020 at 4:12 PM, Pazu2016 said:

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but if the TIE/rb has a primary turret weapon and has to treat any equipped cannons as turret, then would you need separate turret indicator tokens for each?  Or are they assumed to point the same direction, and you would have to announce whether you're firing from your primary vs. your equipped cannon upgrade?  

There's only one turret indicator, and it gets used for every applicable weapon.  This is how the TIE/sf behaves, since it has a nearly-exact ship ability, only with Missiles instead of Cannons.

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So synchronized cannons ended up at a squad price of 6pt, not that far from most predictions. 1-2 pt Lower than what I would have expected (7-8pt) which is great for the TIE /r Heavy. 
 

Unfortunately, the 34pt price of the i1 HMP Gunship, so there is only room for 5 ships, and additional cost of 3 for the config, may unfortunately set a bad president for the TIE /r Heavy. I really hope there is just room for 6 TIE/r Heavy with the targeting assist-droid included, but I am not getting my hopes up.

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