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Fury of the Empire (TIE Brute article)

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13 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Hey everyone also can we talk about the cost of synced laser cannons? Cause my Iggy A/B Brobots are, you know, asking

Darn machines taking our jobs.

It depends on cost. It probably won't be more than 5, because the concussion missile exists and is kiiiinda better (You lose the target lock requirement, but lose the benefit as well), but it may be arguable that the target lock requirement is why missiles are allowed to be so 'efficient' at giving you a 3 dice and no range penalty effect. So the question is how much will it cost more than Autoblasters (which have a stronger 'side benefit' if you can get it to a 3 dice or even 4 dice attack), but have more caveats, and of course how much you value having a range 3 attack.

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6 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Darn machines taking our jobs.

It depends on cost. It probably won't be more than 5, because the concussion missile exists and is kiiiinda better (You lose the target lock requirement, but lose the benefit as well), but it may be arguable that the target lock requirement is why missiles are allowed to be so 'efficient' at giving you a 3 dice and no range penalty effect. So the question is how much will it cost more than Autoblasters (which have a stronger 'side benefit' if you can get it to a 3 dice or even 4 dice attack), but have more caveats, and of course how much you value having a range 3 attack.

So the answer is 4, you're telling me this in super important secret code words, Ok. I think I got it now. I'm going to go tell them. BRB

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55 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

Fairly certain it is going to cost more than an HLC.

Yes. Special forces gunner is 9pt which plays a similar role on a similar ship, but better as it allows range one shots or double taps. Ion cannon is 6pt which is 3dice but max 1 damage. 

Sync'ed cannon should be like 7-8 pt, perhaps push it down to 6pt if they want to boost the brute in particular.

Edited by Sciencius

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There are a few ways to evaluate it. If they want this to be a 'replacement' to the HLC that lacks the danger of a ship increasing its damage cap, for example, it could cost the same or a bit lower because while the increased arc makes it better, your no longer getting a free critless proton torp shot onto a 2 dice ship if you can bullseye at 2.

Or it could be evaluated as better because of the wider arc. Or much worse because its like an ion without the really strong effect of ionization which we know is kinda better than damage as long as you can repeat it. It more comes down to the 'philosophy' they decide to go with, rather than objective balance: Where are cannon ships going to be 'pushed' too? I would be VERY surprised if they evaluated ion as a downside, rather than upside, which is part of why I doubt this will be over 5, which also means that it is probably an attempt to create a damage cannon for the Brute (And likely also the B-wing, because they failed to replace Beef Stress shenanigans with double tapping) that was more attractive than the HLC.

Edited by dezzmont

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I can see a few potential builds for this ship. While it is a Medium Base bully with not such a great dial, the Configs sure make up for this somewhat.

  1. "Rampage" with Maneuver-Assist, Synced Laser Cannons/Ion Cannon seems a solid build.
  2. Onyx Squadron Sentry with Target-Assist, Synced Laser Cannons, Intimidate seems like a Fly-Close to Rotate+Calculate kind of a thing. If they bump, cool. If they don't pew pew.
  3. Spam of Carida Academy Cadets with Target-Assist and Synced Laser Cannons seems like the worst CIS Drones nightmare. Lots of health, no Range 3 bonus usally and Lock + Calculate.
  4. Suppresive Gunner also seems like a decent upgrade for this ship, as lore wise it had a Pilot and a Gunner for crew.

All depends on the cost of all those upgrades. I don't expect Synced Laser Cannons to be more than 3-4 points, as they eat both slots and are just a 3 Die Range 2-3 Cannon. Their ability requires Calculate as well, which is not that common, outside of the IG Droids. I hope the Configs will be a 0 cost upgrade, although I expect them not to be. I hope "Rampage" with the Maneuver-Assist and Cannon will be able to fi within 40-45 points. Otherwise its just a big Crit sponge worth a bunch of points.

Overall the ships seem like an amazing Range 3 bully. But unless they have a Sensor Slot for Passives, I do not expect the Generics to be overly powerful against Aces. Other Swarms though... Those 2 Calculates will be deadly.

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3 hours ago, dezzmont said:

There are a few ways to evaluate it. If they want this to be a 'replacement' to the HLC that lacks the danger of a ship increasing its damage cap, for example, it could cost the same or a bit lower because while the increased arc makes it better, your no longer getting a free critless proton torp shot onto a 2 dice ship if you can bullseye at 2.

Or it could be evaluated as better because of the wider arc. Or much worse because its like an ion without the really strong effect of ionization which we know is kinda better than damage as long as you can repeat it. It more comes down to the 'philosophy' they decide to go with, rather than objective balance: Where are cannon ships going to be 'pushed' too? I would be VERY surprised if they evaluated ion as a downside, rather than upside, which is part of why I doubt this will be over 5, which also means that it is probably an attempt to create a damage cannon for the Brute (And likely also the B-wing, because they failed to replace Beef Stress shenanigans with double tapping) that was more attractive than the HLC.

Ion can be good agains small base aces, with medium health like Jedi Deltas but ioning a large ship vs getting three damage through is less exciting.

Also 1 damage and an ion on soontir vs that second or even third damage killing outright, also less useful.

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10 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

Ion can be good agains small base aces, with medium health like Jedi Deltas but ioning a large ship vs getting three damage through is less exciting.

Also 1 damage and an ion on soontir vs that second or even third damage killing outright, also less useful.

That 1 damage is usually a fourth of his health pool and you have a guarantee of knowing where he will be next turn, making followup killbox childs play. Ion Cannons and Ion Cannon Turrets are extremely powerful tools. I honestly think they should have a 2^ Charge mechanic, where you need to spend both to pew pew with them. "Broadside can just circle and enemy and reliably Ion them with just a Focus Token turn after turn. With just a Focus at Range 1 against 2 Agility with Focus you have only 10% chance of dealing one hit and a 2% chance of blanking out. 

I epxect the SLC to be 3 or 4 points. Its worse than HLC in my opinion, in that it works in Ranges 2 and 3 only, it takes two cannon slots and its special ability is diffcult to trigger on most ships.

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5 hours ago, Sciencius said:

Ion cannon is 6pt which is 3dice but max 1 damage. 

Sync'ed cannon should be like 7-8 pt, perhaps push it down to 6pt if they want to boost the brute in particular.

I don't think anyone takes that card at eight points.

It's not synced versus ion; it's synced versus nothing. For 8 points, just roll primaries at people, or take autoblasters.

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14 minutes ago, svelok said:

I don't think anyone takes that card at eight points.

It's not synced versus ion; it's synced versus nothing. For 8 points, just roll primaries at people, or take autoblasters.

I really think it is more or less equivalent to barrage rockets, which is approximately a +1 attack for your primary (and as an extra, ignoring range bonus). Barrage rockets are 8 points and also take 2 slots, but are good. I don't think synced at 7 or 8 is too crazy.

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9 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

I really think it is more or less equivalent to barrage rockets, which is approximately a +1 attack for your primary (and as an extra, ignoring range bonus). Barrage rockets are 8 points and also take 2 slots, but are good. I don't think synced at 7 or 8 is too crazy.

Barrage Rockets let you reroll dice if you fly well. And this massively increases their value. The cannon prevents the use of an agility die if you have access to calculate tokens. I would say its a much worse scenario. The cannon is a worse version of Barrage Rockets, however you look at it. 

  • Both are 3 Dice attack.
  • Both are Range 2-3.
  • Rockets prevent Range Bonus as a given. Cannon needs to have a Calculate Token after modifying dice to prevent it.
  • Rockets allow you to spend a Charge to reroll a die, without a limit how many you spend at once. Cannon has no build in reroll.

That is why I think, 8 or even 7 points is just straight out overpriced into never being used. I would price it at 4 tops.

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11 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Barrage Rockets let you reroll dice if you fly well. And this massively increases their value. The cannon prevents the use of an agility die if you have access to calculate tokens. I would say its a much worse scenario. The cannon is a worse version of Barrage Rockets, however you look at it. 

  • Both are 3 Dice attack.
  • Both are Range 2-3.
  • Rockets prevent Range Bonus as a given. Cannon needs to have a Calculate Token after modifying dice to prevent it.
  • Rockets allow you to spend a Charge to reroll a die, without a limit how many you spend at once. Cannon has no build in reroll.

That is why I think, 8 or even 7 points is just straight out overpriced into never being used. I would price it at 4 tops.

Don’t forget the utility of the focus token compared to the calculate even if you don’t care about preventing the bonus, appreciating still that targeting assist could let the Brute double mod the attack.

Edited by dsul413

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13 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

Don’t forget the utility of the focus token compared to the calculate even if you don’t care about preventing the bonus, appreciating still that targeting assist could let the Brute double mod the attack.

But I believe it is just additional cost the Tie/RB has to pay for double modding the shot. And considering the cannon is not limited to the Tie/RB, we have to consider other ships using it as well.

Making it 4 points prevents 3 IG Droids with IG-2000 and those beauties.

Edited by Schanez

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14 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Barrage Rockets let you reroll dice if you fly well. And this massively increases their value. The cannon prevents the use of an agility die if you have access to calculate tokens. I would say its a much worse scenario. The cannon is a worse version of Barrage Rockets, however you look at it. 

  • Both are 3 Dice attack.
  • Both are Range 2-3.
  • Rockets prevent Range Bonus as a given. Cannon needs to have a Calculate Token after modifying dice to prevent it.
  • Rockets allow you to spend a Charge to reroll a die, without a limit how many you spend at once. Cannon has no build in reroll.

That is why I think, 8 or even 7 points is just straight out overpriced into never being used. I would price it at 4 tops.

Don't forget the need for a focus token to fire the rockets, which means you can't bump or fly through an obstacle (which happens) and fire them, while you definitely can shoot a synced cannon in absolutely every situation given you have someone in your arc.

True, the rockets give you a bonus in the bullseye, but if you are going for a range 3 shot to deny range bonuses it is quite difficult to get the bullseye, specially with ships like TIE bombers without boost. 

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2 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

Don't forget the need for a focus token to fire the rockets, which means you can't bump or fly through an obstacle (which happens) and fire them, while you definitely can shoot a synced cannon in absolutely every situation given you have someone in your arc.

True, the rockets give you a bonus in the bullseye, but if you are going for a range 3 shot to deny range bonuses it is quite difficult to get the bullseye, specially with ships like TIE bombers without boost. 

That is why I price it at the level of Heavy Laser Cannon, or a point less. HLC is 4 Dice Bullseye. Deadly on some ships. Especially since so many Small Base Aces can take it. SLC is a Mediud/Large Base cannon. I do not think there is any small ship that has double cannons, who can seriously benefit from this. Maybe the B-Wings, but that's mostly due to the full arc 3 Dice. But they have no access to Calculate Tokens, other than some K-2S0 shenanigans. Because taking Passive Sensors on them is just straight out stupid.

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7 minutes ago, xanatos135 said:

Don't forget the need for a focus token to fire the rockets, which means you can't bump or fly through an obstacle (which happens) and fire them, while you definitely can shoot a synced cannon in absolutely every situation given you have someone in your arc.

True, the rockets give you a bonus in the bullseye, but if you are going for a range 3 shot to deny range bonuses it is quite difficult to get the bullseye, specially with ships like TIE bombers without boost. 

And 5 Charges is alot but Barage rockets are also limited, where SLC is unlimited use.

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Just now, Schanez said:

That is why I price it at the level of Heavy Laser Cannon, or a point less. HLC is 4 Dice Bullseye. Deadly on some ships. Especially since so many Small Base Aces can take it. SLC is a Mediud/Large Base cannon. I do not think there is any small ship that has double cannons, who can seriously benefit from this. Maybe the B-Wings, but that's mostly due to the full arc 3 Dice. But they have no access to Calculate Tokens, other than some K-2S0 shenanigans. Because taking Passive Sensors on them is just straight out stupid.

What about their config plus passive sensors to double tap any ship range 2-3?

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9 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I suspect it might be really fun to fly and fly against, almost like a slasher villain of a ship: It is coming, you think you outrun it but then it is suddenly there beside you and it hits you in the leg with an Ion so you can't run. Shooting it only seems to slow it down but it ain't stopping, until it is dead and you get to watch the sunrise with the 1-2 other survivors of its killing spree.

I read all of this with Actual Cannibal Shia LeBeouf running through my head.... This pleases me! Now my Brute will be the slasher villain of my Empire fleet, thanks!

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Okay so I did a double check. So far all the ships, that can take SLC are:

  • B-Wing (no Calculate on action bar)
  • Resistance Transport (no Calclate on action bar)
  • Aggressor Assault Fighter (has Calculate on action bar)
  • Tie/RB (Calculate on Config)
  • HMP Gunship (Calculate on action bar)

B-Wing has access to Calculate through Passive Sensors or through a friendly Crew Carrier with K-2S0. Does not gain anything by using Passive Sensors, as it would shoot a 3 Dice without ability to mod to use the Cannon Ability vs the Primary 3 Dice with a Focus.

Resistance Transport I cannot speak of, as I have little to no experience with Resistance. Someone will have to look into that.

Aggressor Assault Fighter seems like the best candidate for the cannon, flying an IG88-B will let you pew pew 3 Dice Primary and if that misses repeat with a 3 Dice cannon attack. Although I still think the ships will do better with Autoblasters at Range 1, instead of SLC at Range 3.

Tie/RB clearly has the Configs made for the use of SLC and I expect the ship to do well as a long range artillery piece.

Same for HMP Gunship, but I have to say this one is more suited for the Multi Missile Pods than cannons. 

14 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

What about their config plus passive sensors to double tap any ship range 2-3?

They can either get a Calculate to use the Cannon or Lock to double tap. If they take lock, its just a 3 Dice unmodded shot. Considering B-Wings are more of a Range 1 bullies, I would not consider this a massive problem. HLC is much better on them for this purpose, as they can Roll > Lock to aim the Bullseye for the double tap.

Edited by Schanez

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13 minutes ago, Schanez said:

Same for HMP Gunship, but I have to say this one is more suited for the Multi Missile Pods than cannons. 

I was thinking recently about this... I guess these missiles are fine for them since you only need a calculate (no target lock) and you can get 3 dice in the front arc, or 4 in the bullseye if you are lucky. But the HMP doesn't get absolutely any benefit from these missiles being able to shoot in a 180º, since the primary attack already fires 2 dice outside of the front arc. Besides, they are only range 1-2.

On the other hand, with synced cannons you get a consistent 3 dice attack at range up to 3 in the front arc, while keeping the exact same 2 dice attack in the sides. 

The only upside of the missiles I see is a 4 dice attack at range 1-2 in your bullseye, which you can only perform once without reloading. I guess synced will be more expensive, but worth it because of mere consistency. 

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1 minute ago, xanatos135 said:

I was thinking recently about this... I guess these missiles are fine for them since you only need a calculate (no target lock) and you can get 3 dice in the front arc, or 4 in the bullseye if you are lucky. But the HMP doesn't get absolutely any benefit from these missiles being able to shoot in a 180º, since the primary attack already fires 2 dice outside of the front arc. Besides, they are only range 1-2.

On the other hand, with synced cannons you get a consistent 3 dice attack at range up to 3 in the front arc, while keeping the exact same 2 dice attack in the sides. 

The only upside of the missiles I see is a 4 dice attack at range 1-2 in your bullseye, which you can only perform once without reloading. I guess synced will be more expensive, but worth it because of mere consistency. 

I'm with you, I actually see synced as being the better add without any knowledge on points.

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9 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

swz67_maneuver-assist_mgk300.png

Does this change the 3 straight and 3 bank maneuvers or the 3 straight and all bank maneuvers? 

Oh, there might easily be a thread in the Rules Subforum arguing that it means all banks, just like there were folks arguing that BB-8 does a white and not red boost.  Folks making that argument will be wrong, but folks have made it before.

Swz45_bb-8.png

 

Edited by theBitterFig

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