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Fury of the Empire (TIE Brute article)

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9 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Yeah, it really feels like a heavy TIE should: faster than other mediums by a bit, but also still a little clunky. However, this is a good time to mention that I just realized that the e-wing dial does not feel great and I'm a little disappointed.

I dunno.  I like the E-Wing dial.  Lots of white, 5-straight, both K-Turn and S-Loop for flips.  Blues are only OK for banks, but 1-4 straight is a huge range.  Having the Red 1-hard is nice in theory, and while I'm an R3 player, R4 adds a TONNE to an E-Wing dial, really transforms it.

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Just now, theBitterFig said:

Snap Shot wouldn't do anything special with Targeting Assist.  Snap Shot is a bonus attack, not engaging, so it wouldn't trigger the effects of the configuration.

Did not know there was a difference? 

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1 minute ago, Dwing said:

Did not know there was a difference? 

Yep, you engage at the appropriate time during the engagement phase.

ENGAGEMENT PHASE The Engagement Phase is the fourth phase of the round. During this phase, each ship engages, one at a time, starting with the ship with the highest initiative and continues in descending order. When a ship engages, it may perform an attack.

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3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I dunno.  I like the E-Wing dial.  Lots of white, 5-straight, both K-Turn and S-Loop for flips.  Blues are only OK for banks, but 1-4 straight is a huge range.  Having the Red 1-hard is nice in theory, and while I'm an R3 player, R4 adds a TONNE to an E-Wing dial, really transforms it.

I guess the blues irk me a bit, because I feel like the straights are situational (but good when you need them). My feeling is summed up best as "Look at this thing. The true rebel superiority fighter, and the apex of years of design from Incom. Maneuverable, deadly, and the best thing we've got to fight the new TIE defenders." "Yeah, uhhhhh... best I can do is blue 2 banks and red 1 hards."

It's not a bad dial, I just kinda feel generally disappointed in the E-Wing not quite matching up to its "prototype all-around superiority fighter" counterpart in the defender.

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3 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

 is a constant state of the game that unfairly hurts certain archetypes, such as Rebel efficiency "point your gun and killbox" playstyles. This expansion isn't going to make a "sky is falling" impact on the game, but will be yet another entry into a trend that suppresses the game's most iconic craft and namesake. Most factions are able to weather the new flavor of the wave because even their efficiency pieces, albeit more fragile than T65's, are...how to put it...less boring than the T65, even if both they and the T65 stabilize to appropriate-ish costs.

This is the actual problem: Rebels don't have a very diverse set of playstyles, their iconic characters were over-nerfed or never that good to begin with, and they lack any 'gimmicks' that allow them to do much beyond hardcore brawling, and when your not the best brawler it doesn't matter because there can only really be one top dog, and even with 5X rebels aren't even close, especially because being a 'small gunline' list without access to mods just... feels awful because with reduced attacker count and a very defensive meta dice variance can make for some extremely unfun games.

As for the TIE Brute:

Rampage seems to fit a new design space FFG seems to really want to explore, which is anti-defensive tools, which I am ok with because missed attacks really stink and while they should be possible you should generally do something when you get an arc or two off on someone.

I really like Dree's design: it gives another 'wide' buff option to Empire's 2 dice swarms but its a bit more conditional than Howlrunner and lets the swarm effectively eliminate a specific target, rather than just fight with kinda double modded 2 dice all the time. It is a neat angle to re-introduce power into 'wide synergy.'

Depending on the price this ship could be really scary and, as has been pointed out before, really intrude on rebel theming, because this kinda sorta is a Y-wing with a better dial (It only loses the 4K and some blues are now white, but conversely some reds are also now white, and it gets access to 1 hards which is a big weakness of a ship like the Y-wing) that can mount a cannon instead of having a turret and a 2 dice front gun. This isn't really good for Empire to get access to as an efficient piece to field a lot of, because it means Empires get yet another potential archetype in the form of Imperial Beef, but pricing can ensure that doesn't happen and that this thing exists more to support swarms with a cannon or missile or something, rather than to up its total HP value.

 

Edited by dezzmont

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3 hours ago, svelok said:

Xi thread: scum players whining about illicit slots

Brute thread: rebel players whining about... I'm not sure exactly

Brute thread: Empire players immediately declaring it to be dead in the water as it has less than 3 green dice and less than Ini 5 and not 5000 blue maneuvers on its dial :P

 

Compare it to the Kimogila. Both are "heavy fighterd" on medium bases, both have 1 green die, both capped at ini 4, both red Barrel roll. TL, focus. 

Brute has hard 3 red (not white), but can go 4 white (that is huge and really fast on a medium). 3TR instead 4K. Kimo has a reload, which it almost never will use (if you ever get around to reload one charge ln a M12L you already have won).

Kimogila 1 more health, and shields, but no reinforce. Both will die fast if concentrated upon.

Kimogila 3 att, dead to rights,  but fixed to the front. Brute 2, but can swivel, and gets cannon flexibility.

 

The Brute however, gets linked actions and "free" mods. And that is part of the feel bad experience, and power creep vibes. The older converted-over-from-1st ships mostly are very restricted in mods and linked actions (2nd ed supposed to be about flying). Newer factions have more force and passive mods resp. mod sharing.

 

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36 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Newer factions have more force and passive mods resp. mod sharing

This is especially feels bad because mod sharing was meant to be a 'Rebel Gimmick' and, at least I was told, was part of why they didn't get aces. It would be 'too good' for aces to get a bonus TL or whatever from Dutch. Which is both a complete joke because a huge point of aces is to be very self-reliant, and because other factions have aces and team-boosting effects as well!

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38 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Brute thread: Empire players immediately declaring it to be dead in the water as it has less than 3 green dice and less than Ini 5 and not 5000 blue maneuvers on its dial :P

Bwahahahaha!  That tickles!

No, but seriously, I love the physical design of this ship.  It is *pretty*.  All the rest seems much of a muchness - take something that already exists and tweak it to be just slightly better.  Almost certainly in pursuit of sales, but also so as to avoid the old dismissive "TIE Aggressor is nothing more than the Y-Wing of the Imperials" argument.  It ain't an Ace, as has been pointed out, and so won't see "competitive" play until some "maverick" builds a list around it and practices it and achieves "surprise" success a la the Hatchetman list of not so long ago.  This bugger is an amalgamation of Kimogila, Scyk, RZ-2 and s/f.  It might take some work to get it to work, but it *will* work quite well - mix that many elements and it can't fail.

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3 hours ago, RStan said:

Yall are asking the wrong questions here. I just want confirmation the droid ball with cannons rotates. Did I miss that in the article or during the Gencon announcement? 

From the article: "beginning with a beautifully detailed, pre-painted TIE/rb heavy miniature featuring canons that rotate to cover both the ship's front and rear arcs."

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I'm having a hard time seeing this ship as being particularly worrisome with the passive mods: it tops out at IN 4, only has 1 defense die, and no shields. If it takes a reinforce action, it doesn't get the passive mods. It will be difficult for it to get a target lock unless they gave it a sensor slot (which doesn't seem to be indicated by the card spread).

With so many ways to inflict critical damage effects, it feels like this ship will melt fairly quickly, even with 8 hull, so really, it had better be able to hit hard before it explodes.

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15 minutes ago, Freeptop said:

I'm having a hard time seeing this ship as being particularly worrisome with the passive mods: it tops out at IN 4, only has 1 defense die, and no shields. If it takes a reinforce action, it doesn't get the passive mods. It will be difficult for it to get a target lock unless they gave it a sensor slot (which doesn't seem to be indicated by the card spread).

With so many ways to inflict critical damage effects, it feels like this ship will melt fairly quickly, even with 8 hull, so really, it had better be able to hit hard before it explodes.

Thane is just going to munch these things for breakfast, second breakfast, elevensies, etc. So much hull, so many crits.

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Competitively, with 8 hull on medium base and no way to repair, these boys are gonna be crit magnets. 

Flight Assist droid is going to be way more auto include than people realize.

Supposing that the price is low for ILO  (ion limiter override) talent, it's about the only upgrade I'd put and these ... SnapShot, Ablative are effectively doa for the Brute until price drops on those upgrades. 

Synced Cannon will be expensive... So I'm gonna say it'll be a real choice on this platform... probably only stapled to one of the Limited Named pilots. 

Don't get the wrong... I like the whole expansion and the design space. 

It's just 8 hull on 1 agi on a Med base ....and THAT CRIT DECK. 

This poor Brute is just a magnet for death if you put ANY points on it. 

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4 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

The ships are largely IN3, which is not conducive to setting up target-locked attacks at r2-3 against most enemies. They can be counter-played and will likely be lit up if focused on. 

Again, I am not saying that the Brute is necessarily going to be strong or dominate in lists. I don't think free calculates at  I3-4 is a superpower.

I'm just pointing out the trend this represents. I'm not worried about the Brute replacing the current top ships. I'm worried about the small amount it further squashes down those ships currently at the bottom. 

 

4 hours ago, Npmartian said:

Now, as synergy lists that rebels do well just aren't that good

Rebels don't even do synergy well to start with. That's why their synergy lists aren't good. 

The Empire, Republic and Separatists all do synergy better. 

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You just described any ship with a lock action or near Howlrunner, both of which have been around since wave 1 of 1.0.

I'm sorry, are you actually being serious here?

Is this a real counter argument you're trying to make?

 

You're suggesting that one ship getting a lock and focus/calculate tokens in one round is the same as spreading those actions out over two rounds or including a whole extra ship whose point cost is more than double that of the generic for the chassis?

 

I honestly didn't think I had to specify the within the same turn clause, but apparently I've overestimated people. 

 

Like, you're aware why Darth Vader has been a staple of competitive, successful lists since the beginning of 2e but Maarek Stele - on the same chassis and only one Initiative point lower - never sees play despite being 22 points cheaper, right? Or do I have to go through the entire history of 2e pointing out that all the successful lists have ships that can generate double mods in one turn? 

 

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They'll be full of crits given they only roll one defense, have a medium base, and are missing shields.

Assuming they actually get shot that much.

I know that swarms are strong at the moment and the meta heavily favours high ship counts but that is exactly my point.

As I keep saying, this ship won't push out the current top lists. It won't be super strong. But it is better than all the higher ship cost, non ace mid range ships that are already being kept out of the game. It's the T-65s, ARC-170s, T-70s, Y-Wings, K-Wings, HWKs, G1-As, Kimogilas, Gunboats, Scurggs, Upsilons that are going to struggle to compete with easy mods like that, the way they all struggled to compete with Marauder Han Boba or 0-0-0 Slave 1 Boba or Vader or Soontir or Kylo Ren or Anakin. 

 

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Most ships have that. Some ships that have it are still trash (like the RZ-1) and some that don't are fantastic (like the scyk). It's all about pricing, and the devs can adjust that. "Overpowered" just means "Underpriced."

Lol. They really, really don't. 

Let's just go through some ships that are lacking a quality linked action, shall we?

The T-65

The K-Wing

The E-Wing

The ARC-170

The Auzituck

The Y-Wing

The YT-1300 in all flavours

The Z-95

The U-Wing

The HWK-290

The Jumpmaster

The Lancer

The Kihraxz

The Gunboat

I could go on, but I feel like you get the point here.

It's funny that use the Scyk is an example of how pricing fixes everything, because I actually think it's an example of the opposite. There are thresholds. And some ships go too far once they cross that threshold, but can't keep up if they don't. The Scyk was borderline useless before, when it was too expensive. Now it's insanely good because it's too cheap. There is no balance point for the ship. Either you can fit enough with all the upgrades you need for them to be amazing or you.... simply can't and the list falls apart.

 

You can't fix everything with points costs. 

You have to balance the mechanics of the game, the abilities of each ship in question. There are so many examples of this throughout 2e already. Ships or upgrades that were everywhere, then priced up and immediately vanished with no one using them at all. Proton Torpedoes were too cheap at the start of the game and could be spammed. But now no one uses them. There isn't a single pilot out there who still gets competitive value out of those 13 points. The only way to make ProTorps usable but fair is to drop the cost and limit them to two a list. 

But FFG won't do that because that's too arbitrary. 

4 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

A 1 agility ship with no shields forgoing its reinforce to be fully offensive could get you killed/crit ruined before you get to use those aggressive tokens.

High HP, 1 agility ships don't care about using tokens for defence anyway.

Ask Braylen or Ten how many times that 2/8 eye result actually comes up on their 1 die. Ten especially. The number of times I've seen him shoot a target, get shot by 2-3 ships and still come away with that stress....

If you really think that this ship is never going to survive to shoot without reinforce, then you'd have to conclude it will never, ever get played because reinforce is a terrible action and no ship that depends on it has (thus far, I know things may be changing for the now hilariously cheap Auzituck) had the slightest look in.

I don't think anyone actually thinks this won't get played. 8 Hull is enough. Also Shield Upgrades exist. 

Edited by GuacCousteau

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6 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

 


swz67_carida-cadet.pngswz67_maneuver-assist_mgk300.pngswz67_ion-cannon.png

Verdict:

Six of these would not break the meta. 

______

comp to I2 Y-wing with R4 and Ion Turret: 

(30) Gray Squadron Bomber [BTL-A4 Y-wing]
(2) R4 Astromech
(5) Ion Cannon Turret
Points: 37

______________

sub 36 points for this Ion Maneuver Brute at I1 ....would probably be more than I'd pay. 

Are we talking 34 points here?!

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Cost is crucial;

Hm, let's compare it to its lil' inbred FO third cousin, also at Initiative three, the TIE SF Omega Squadron Ace, currently at 34 points; 

OSA sits at 4.2 to 7.4 shots to destroy;  Onyx Squadron Sentry  4.6 to 7.3 STD; Pretty close. Perpetual reinforce moves the chains from 6.9 to 10.0 STD Edge; Brute Kinda?

OSA has linked Focus/Evade, Tech and Sensor Slot; OSA will have two cannon slots, Reinforce, and configuration that either gives it a bit more speed and maneuverability (anything more than 2 points is expensive) or action economy (target assist linked rotate calc) which is probably about a shade better than Passive Sensors here, so let's go with 4 points at most. Edge; TIE S/F

Cannons are already priced premium--so let's say one either goes with linked cannons or some combo cannons---which can fire backward, scary with Ion-- let's equate that to SF Gunner as a wash at 10 points. The Brute does NOT have a printed front arc, so no front-back tap--If you're moving the turret, you ain't reinforcing (A reinforce to linked rotate would have been neat here) Brute falls a bit short here. It needs Reinforce fairly constantly to pull its weight. Which means, less offensive mods... Edge; TIE S/F

So yeah, anything more than 30-32 points for the I3 Brute, base 28-30 for the I1 seems like it will be overpriced given that this ship requires outfitting to be fun or worthy to play. Would definitely expect to see the Brute Aces priced 10+ points higher to start out due to those sweet sugar abilities. This is a medium base (which means it takes more shots than the TIE S/F) and that hurts the T-Rolls to bring it back into the fight after the alpha. This ship will be begging to be coordinated when going against 5 ship+ lists. It'll be lucky to get three attacks in during a game :( What really hurts it though; It has no printed front primary firing arc. Aces will dodge it for days--and swarms mow it down. Don't even get started on Spamtex silliness or CLT Jedi, it won't stand a chance

Is it DOA? Hardly. It just will need a lot of friendly flies (TIEs) around it to keep it a threat. I don't care, still buying 3 because I actually loved Solo :)

That's all I got for amateur hour assessment flame on 

Edited by Cloaker

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11 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

[...] 

It's funny that use the Scyk is an example of how pricing fixes everything, because I actually think it's an example of the opposite. There are thresholds. And some ships go too far once they cross that threshold, but can't keep up if they don't. The Scyk was borderline useless before, when it was too expensive. Now it's insanely good because it's too cheap. There is no balance point for the ship. Either you can fit enough with all the upgrades you need for them to be amazing or you.... simply can't and the list falls apart.

[...]

So you feel Scyks are underpriced.

I think the i1 pilot, Sunny, Genesis red and mayve Serrisu are reasonable but their certainly not in Petranaki Arena Ace territory.

The I3 Generic, and all other named pilots are overpriced, IMHO.

I've flown the double tractor Scyk, double ion scyk and double Zealous recruit Fang list (before it was cool mind you, but i wasnt good enough with it to make waves)

So i think they are either reasonable or over priced.

How come you think they are under priced?

I get that relative to a tie/ln they seem decent, but relative to a tie/fo or gold squadron torrent, i dont think they are leaps and bounds better, possibly worse in some ways.

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4 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

I get that relative to a tie/ln they seem decent, but relative to a tie/fo or gold squadron torrent, i dont think they are leaps and bounds better, possibly worse in some ways.

Agreed--lack of linked action or double reposition (interceptor? HAH!) junky blues, slightly overpriced cannons and zero munition builds that are not worth not having a green token for, Scyks are just fine where they are at. Not galaxy wrecking. FFG has got them right. I do think Genesis Red could maybe see some more play. He's got unexplored potential.

Edited by Cloaker

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11 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

So yeah, anything more than 30-32 points for the I3 Brute, base 28-30 for the I1 seems like it will be overpriced given that this ship requires outfitting to be fun or worthy to play

The issue is if this is at 30 for the I3 it completely blows up the Y-wing's spot, so to speak. It would also be weird priced internally to the faction.

It will have to be more, and gain its value outside of raw stats, such as being in a faction better suited to 2 red spam anyway (A Y-wing in Empire would be MUCH stronger than in Rebels, even ignoring its torp slot), or having access to control turrets, or serving as a late game piece for a swarm or something. While I am skeptical of 'it doesn't have to be equal to another faction's stuff, the factions are different' arguments, the Empire is a really big example of how faction can matter a lot due to the tools it has for supporting basically any chasis it gets.

It probably will be priced similarly to a Starwing, so probably something like 30 for the I1, 32 for the I3? Your dial is a bit worse and you lose the SLAM, but get the ability to fire out the rear and run double cannons, plus one of the two configs it has and reinforce, which is considered a fairly high value action.

Edited by dezzmont

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8 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The issue is if this is at 30 for the I1 it completely blows up the Y-wing's spot, so to speak. It would also be weird priced internally to the faction: No way the I1 brute is only 1 up on the I2 bomber.

It will have to be more, and gain its value outside of raw stats, such as being in a faction better suited to 2 red spam anyway (A Y-wing in Empire would be MUCH stronger than in Rebels, even ignoring its torp slot), or having access to control turrets, or serving as a late game piece for a swarm or something. While I am skeptical of 'it doesn't have to be equal to another faction's stuff, the factions are different' arguments, the Empire is a really big example of how faction can matter a lot due to the tools it has for supporting basically any chasis it gets.

 I don't know--- it will need some AG3 escorts to punish aggro, which Imps obviously can do better than Rebels. It isn't going to stay on the table-- this is a MOV bleeder. If the Y-Wings were medium base, I'd be inclined to agree--but as we have seen, any non small chassis below AG2 just doesn't really cut it right now in the game. Also--Y-Wings have that all important Front Firing Arc (not even counting dorsal.)

I mean, at this point, we're looking at thresholds--5 in a list each with a single cannon and maybe one configuration is the breakpoint. TIE S/Fs, you can only do 4 with gunner, but that time on target and linked/with that dial deserves it. 

Edited by Cloaker

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11 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

this is a MOV bleeder

This is definitely a problem for the ship, but at the same time Empire just has a lot of stuff that makes this a bit spooky, especially because it has options that allow it to constantly reinforce, which in some matchups makes it a total tarpit. 

11 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

but as we have seen, any non small chassis below AG2 just doesn't really cut it right now in the game. 

Sith Infiltrator crops up from time to time, as does the Deci. The VCX and M-falc sorta... circle jumping into the off-meta pool with some break out lists, but never end up having staying power, but if Rebels got a little help overall both of them could suddenly break out and become real ships again. The ARC likewise had a lot of experimentation, though right now it is indeed dead in the water.

I do think the fact it burns down is a problem for the ship, but this being more efficient points wise for 8 health 2 attack than a Y-wing, even ignoring an ion option and passive modding, feels very very wrong, especially because its going into Empire.

And of course, there is the slot question: It is likely it gets a gunner. Both of these things are a Big Deal and dramatically change the value of what we are looking at: Fifth Brother means we can now assume this ship could be piloted with Reinforce up 100% of the time while still being deadly, and with an Autoblasters option to boot, which would make it Norra tier tough at only 14 points over its original cost, and Norra often WAS a thing before Rebels lost all their toys.

Edited by dezzmont

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