Jump to content
Bucknife

Old Faithful (Seeing competitive T-65s)

Recommended Posts

latest?cb=20080418003709

Wave 7 is only seeing Luke and Wedge as far as I'm aware....

How about I4 named pilots with Advanced Proton Torps? 

A single generic with Regen? 

Selfless? 

Let's hear everyone's thoughts on Old Faithful....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, svelok said:

these are some monkey's paw tier wishes if I've ever seen them

2020 can't take many more of those...

"Golly! I sure wish I could spend more time playing video games!"

-the first finger curls-

"Boy, I really dislike going to work. I wish I could have a nice, long break from that..."

-the second finger curls-

"Wow! I really like this dystopian story line this book has! I wish reality was more like THIS!"

-the third finger slowly starts to curl-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rebel faction overall is hurting, which hurts the T-65, and the faction currently lacks an identity or draw.

Why play Empire? You can build around great aces, or great swarm support pieces like Sloane. You can play a carrier+mini-swarm. They have lots of other mechanics, like stress gifting, which aren't meta or great, but still can work because the faction has clear 'pillars' to hold it up.

Why play Seps? Droid Swarms, the most synergistic ship in the game in a swarm package. Why play Scum? Super-aces plus some great trash options. Why play Resistance? Ace swarms, heroic helps your 'minimum result,' ect.

Why play Rebel? Hrm.... Well X-wings aren't actually good brawlers, and they don't have real aces and aren't an ace platform. They have some good character abilities but they tend to be overpriced because of initiative. Their crew can be strong but they don't often come together in a cohesive strategy. Simply nerfing ship prices isn't viable because then rebel beef is a thing and suddenly the game is an unfun slugfest that takes forever.

I have often said 'things are allowed to be good' to explain why an option might make you go 'wow this is strong.' As long as there are clear weaknesses, major strengths are ok.

A problem with the rebel's identity is they just... don't have strengths right now, and this hurts the X-wing. The TIE/Ln sees play despite being a 'worse' ship than the Droid Fighter, due to lacking that super powerful passive modding, because Empire as a faction has 'good stuff' that would make you accept a downgrade in your swarm's capabilities to brawl in order to get access to them: Access to Sloane or Palps or whatever is worth the 'cost' of getting a worse swarm chasis than a TIE/Fo or a Droid Starfighter.

Why splash into Rebel if your looking for a beefy ship with decent manuverability and 3 red dice at the 40 points range? The Fang may lose you a ship, but that is immaterial if the preformance of the 4 fangs so outstrips the 5 X-wings that you wouldn't ever consider them comparable. So Rebels dont have a 'draw' in terms of beefy swarms. Tricked out torp lists? So many other ships do that better. For the T-65 to make sense, it either needs to be the best at something (Which is hard because its so not-specialized) or rebels as a faction need a really obvious upshot to play them. That USED to be Leia, Wedge, and Cassian, but all of those got nerfed in the context of super beefy rebel lists. And those lists sucked for the game and weren't fun, so good ridance, but now Rebels had the legs kicked out from under them and are struggling to find any identity.

This is why I think individual ship buffs and nerfs aren't going to work and they need a 'points rework:' an overhaul to their pricing schemes to re-define what Rebels are about and what sort of lists are meant to exist, moving the power of the faction out of HP stacks and generic ships that forced the nerfs to their actual unique mechanics and limited how good their support/specialized pieces were 'allowed' to be. It isn't that 'X-wings are overpriced' or whatever, it is that the entire faction fails to create any sort of meaningful strategy not better suited to be done somewhere else, and has a habit of becoming miserable to play against if their that are actually worth even considering playing go too far down in price to the point you can stack 30 HP with some useful ability.

One interesting thought experiment is this: Would the X-wing be an amazing ship in another faction? I could see it doing extremely well in Empire, for example, and Republic and Scum are interesting as well (you could do some stuff with Sinker in Republic and get an extra Torrent along with some beef by replacing 3 Arcs with 3 X-wings, for example, and in Scum you could run 2 Fang+3X). This is a big indication that the chasis isn't the issue (the X-wing is a fine little ship in a vacuum), its the faction overall that has severe issues.

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think T65s and several other Rebel signature chassis like Y-wings would best support a "Hit and Run" tactical gameplay. 

Very average dials, lower HP than Resistance equivalents, no fancy tech. 

Hit with Torps and ion cannons on the incoming, close foils, boost focus, Regen a shield.....

I really hope these principals of Rebel generic hit and run can be solved and competitively encouraged for Rebels through creative future updates. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Frimmel said:

The problem for the T-65 is thirteen point proton torpedoes in my opinion. Four I3 with torps is better than five of the I2. 

I'm hearing more and more murmurings that ProTorps need to come down again.

I always felt like 4 T65s with Torps, in any form, were never overpowered. 

And now you can't even fly that (unless they're APTs...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I'm hearing more and more murmurings that ProTorps need to come down again.

I always felt like 4 T65s with Torps, in any form, were never overpowered. 

And now you can't even fly that (unless they're APTs...)

ProTorps were really good at launch, and needed to go up (I don't remember what they were to start though...). That being said, 13 pts feels really steep for these. Maybe 9 to 11-ish points is good?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

ProTorps were really good at launch, and needed to go up (I don't remember what they were to start though...). That being said, 13 pts feels really steep for these. Maybe 9 to 11-ish points is good?

9 pts at launch with 41 pt Blue Escorts (4 with Torps could be flown...but Y-wings were arguably better carriers anyway). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

9 pts at launch with 41 pt Blue Escorts (4 with Torps could be flown...but Y-wings were arguably better carriers anyway). 

Given that, 10 should be fine. Opens things up a bit more while allowing 4 ProTorp Blues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Npmartian said:

Given that, 10 should be fine. Opens things up a bit more while allowing 4 ProTorp Blues.

 A big issue with the T-65 right now is that 5X under-preforms compared to ships that don't bother to reach the 40 breakpoint and just get more capabilities. 5x loses on average jousting to both Skull squad  (even if Skull didn't have a ship ability or fearless! Like 'correctly' countering them and keeping them at range 2 at all times still isn't enough to win!) and a heroic Black Squadron, so it becomes pretty obvious you should ditch an X-wing and make the power of your ships 'denser,' especially because that is one of the main advantages of having high HP ships that are hard to alpha down compared to a 6,7,or 8 ship swarm, but because the T-70 and Fang are so much better to begin with, and they have access to some extremely powerful exclusive ways to upgrade them, it is hard to make the 4 points you get on Fangs and 8 points you get on T-70s make sense even before you account for the disparity in quality upgrade options.

This creates a pretty clear value proposition for deciding to take a downgraded dial, statline, and losing the passive on the Fang, or losing some of the unique options Resitance brings to the table, without reducing the price further to the point some really silly beef lists become possible again: T-65 have a conditional 4 dice at range 2 or 3, with crits, option, that doesn't make too many sacrifices on dial or defense. Other big winners include Dutch (who lets you double mod a torp shot on a buddy to boot), and the E-wings, as you can now run 2 Escorts with torps and 2 Blue. This also reduces the dependence rebels have on the stress management package, because they can now push damage in a list without the named B-wings at a similar price point, but with even more damage (and less problematic beef).

A 4X list that can get locks on the first engagement (Which obviously isn't trivial, but it isn't as extreme as fully arc dodging fangs in an X-wing consistently) beats a 4 Fang I3+ list that they can keep at range 2, while 5X does not, which is a big thing holding the T-65 back in terms of 'why even X-wing in X-wing?' Now, the trade off is really clear: The fang is way more defensively powerful with a better dial and defensive stats for a 4 of 3 red, while X-wings are much more offensively powerful as long as you can keep your opponent at 2 or 3, which also plays way better with some of the other options in Rebels and helps make their ability to hand out double mods on their 'midrange' pilots more valuable, which is probably actually more important.

Of course there are real risks to the meta. The Techno Union Bomber already is pretty darn good and while it doesn't usually run proton torps it could, and the M3-A is already extremely strong and, worse, kinda has similar strengths as an X-wing in terms of being a torp carrier (good dial) but is cheaper, with its only weakness being it would do worse vs 'tall' collections of red dice compared to the X-wing if it didn't have focus. So it would be a bit tricky to do, but it does help change how you imagine T65 and Rebel lists without lowering the points on the basic generics more and bringing beef back again. Now rebels can easily splash in ships that can really huuuuurt yoooou if they get going, and have more of a reason to want to pass a single big token around, which is currently generally worse than passing lots of small ones around or just having lots of small ones free.

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Npmartian said:

Given that, 10 should be fine. Opens things up a bit more while allowing 4 ProTorp Blues.

Torps got slammed the first couple adjustments because of Empire abuse and fear of gdneral NPE of alpha strikes in general. 

Lowering Torps opens a bunch of identity doors for rebellion, but unfortunately also is still available to lots of other pilots who can use them better. 

In other words, ANY change to ProTorps necessitates equal increases to a SWATH of other better Torp platforms/pilots. 

I would love more viable Torp lists for Rebs and I think it plays into their current lack of identity. 

The issue is every other non rebel ship in the game that can take them. 

.....cue rant on Regen getting slaughtered by Delta 7 Jedi.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

.....cue rant on Regen getting slaughtered by Delta 7 Jedi.....

Careful. I have learned the hard way that if you talk about that people will swoop in to say regen had no place in the game at all despite it being perfectly healthy (on astromechs, Handbrake Han can go Hand-brreak his own spine) and honestly under-powered for 2.0's entire history till they came about.

Still, it is interesting to note how it seems like part of rebel's identity is 'room for lots of generic upgrades to customize their playstyle' but that has been de-emphasized a lot. Probably not as critical for competitive, but it is very noticeable in more casual or gimmicky lists.

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once upon a time there were some 4 X lists floating around and neither of the following were affected by the points change. 

 

Luke, Thane, 2x selfless red

 

Wedge,Thane, biggs, selfless red

 

I believe AC Yaeger was a top cup player at an in person hyperspace tourney with the former list way bach when those were a thing. Named pilots are all still pretty good and feel about worth their points. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Amc879 said:

Once upon a time there were some 4 X lists floating around and neither of the following were affected by the points change. 

 

Luke, Thane, 2x selfless red

 

Wedge,Thane, biggs, selfless red

 

I believe AC Yaeger was a top cup player at an in person hyperspace tourney with the former list way bach when those were a thing. Named pilots are all still pretty good and feel about worth their points. 

I actually ran something vaguely similar to the second list, except I brought a selfless Y instead of thane which opened up points for Squad Leader on Wedge to let someone else shoot at I6. It was pretty good but just didn't have quite enough punch to actually win the joust when it needed to. Still, damage spreading made for super close games with all my ships hanging on by a thread and often only 1 or 2 left standing.

Edited by Npmartian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Still, damage spreading made for super close games with all my ships hanging on by a thread and often only 1 or 2 left standing.

FFG really kinda screwed Rebels when they made Damage Spreading a core mechanic of the faction.  For example, I see where folks who dislike Defenders are coming from when they say stuff like "they just die slow and win based on tournament math, which is kinda toxic" and the same kind of applies to Biggs & Selfless.  I can appreciate the theme/lore side of it, but it just doesn't seem fun or super healthy for a faction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

FFG really kinda screwed Rebels when they made Damage Spreading a core mechanic of the faction.  For example, I see where folks who dislike Defenders are coming from when they say stuff like "they just die slow and win based on tournament math, which is kinda toxic" and the same kind of applies to Biggs & Selfless.  I can appreciate the theme/lore side of it, but it just doesn't seem fun or super healthy for a faction.

Yeah, it just feels too polarizing: it's either not good (like now) or it's like 1e where nothing ever dies because Kanan and Biggs press the "no" button. It sits on such a knife edge, and unfortunately it's probably a healthier game when selfless spam isn't effective. At the moment, I'm looking at just shoving good rebel pilots into a squad and seeing how it turns out.

Jake Farrell (36)    
    Outmaneuver (6)    
    
Ship total: 42  Half Points: 21  Threshold: 2    
    
Thane Kyrell (48)    
    Servomotor S-Foils (0)    
    
Ship total: 48  Half Points: 24  Threshold: 3    
    
Luke Skywalker (62)    
    Brilliant Evasion (3)    
    Servomotor S-Foils (0)    
    
Ship total: 65  Half Points: 33  Threshold: 3    
    
Norra Wexley (Y-Wing) (41)    
    Expert Handling (2)    
    Dorsal Turret (2)    
    
Ship total: 45  Half Points: 23  Threshold: 4    
    
    
Total: 200    
    
View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v8ZhZ200Z50X126WWY9XWWWW142Y4X199WWWW142Y25X120W137WWWWW&sn=Rebel 4 Big Orange&obs=

There are of course some other pilot variations here that I've played with, and the upgrades can change a lot. This is the hyperspace version, in Extended there's more predator/crack and I think I subbed out thane or luke for wedge?

Edited by Npmartian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

T65 is a generalist/toolbox chassis. 

It's beauty shines when it's tooled-out with upgrades. 

But we are not playing in an upgrades version of X-Wing....

We are playing Chassis X-Wing. 

That is why Nantex are killing it. 

Because they are the best chassis and initiative for the price right now. 

Just look at Cartel Marauders.... They take the T65 problem to another level... They are dead in the water as an efficient 3 dice gun because they have no way to be MORE efficient by kitting out their mods as intended. 

Mod ships like T65 and Khirax need to be avg or bad priced chassis, with undercosted tools. 

But that's not the Xwing we play right now. 

It will take a huge intentional effort on ffg to make toolbox chassis anything more than HP spam in a chassis costed game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Red squadron

(55) Wedge Antilles [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(5) Hull Upgrade
(2) Predator
Points: 62

(48) Biggs Darklighter [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
Points: 48

(41) Red Squadron Veteran [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(2) Crack Shot
Points: 43

(45) Jek Porkins [T-65 X-wing]
(0) Servomotor S-foils
(2) Crack Shot
Points: 47

Total points: 200

 

This has been one of the x-wing rebel lists I've played to moderate success, making cuts in a few online tournaments and winning a few small  online leagues during the early days of quarantine. Wedge and biggs are really good as biggs gives you more time to kill stuff with wedge. Red squad vet can be used as a distraction, a flanker or can be part of the jousting block with wedge and biggs. Perkins makes for a great flanker and end game piece due to his ability to shed stress and mod after k turns or talons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

It will take a huge intentional effort on ffg to make toolbox chassis anything more than HP spam in a chassis costed game. 

Its interesting because this isn't always the case even when upgrades are weak. The thing is that an upgrade needs to bring transformative value at the moment. 2 red dice ships that can take weapon upgrades for example don't just usually take them, but they are often quite good, because the upgrade is 'allowed' to be good on them. But for the most part the design philosophy for upgrade pricing is to ensure they are value negative on most ships and neutral on the ships best suited to use them so they aren't 'forced' to take upgrades, which I feel is a big mistake because it means the vast majority of X-wing content is just gunna be bad and lists are all about the chasis, which feels super samey.

Put another way: Until you can spend 2 points in rebels to make as big a difference to a T-65 as the difference is between the T-65 and a Fang, or rebels get stuff other than the T-65's potential upgrades that would make you consider 'downgrading' your fangs to access it, the T-65 is going to be struggle. And I doubt we will get a 2 point upgrade 'as good' as the differences between a Fang and T-65. Might get one as good as the differences between a T-65 and T-70 though.

If upgrades were value positive, but were juuust expensive enough that you still had to make choices on what to cut, a lot of rebel ships would be much more interesting, and it would help the faction a lot due to the fact they are shaving a point or three off their list per-ship in exchange for significant  dial, bar, and stat downgrades. But if you can't spend those points on anything that isn't just worse than having a better base ship, rebels aren't just unable to trick out their T-65s, but aren't able to justify them because 3 points isn't 'worth anything' unless it lets you change to a better statted ship or a better pilot power, which isn't a thing for Rebels. It is a prime example where points changes to the base ship aren't going to really cut it: A X-wing at 39 points isn't much better than one at 40, and one at 38 suddenly opens up some beef weirdness again.

So The T-65 has hit a bit of a floor assuming we don't want to revive some beef variant, and the chasis needs to somehow get stronger some other way, most likely in upgrade slots its well positioned to use.

Obviously, the other option is to nerf equivalent ships, but there are so many other ships that aren't equivalent to the T-65 that it does poorly against that this doesn't seem realistic. The main exception is Fangs, which are pretty ridiculously priced compared to the T-65 and which have been a 'meta badguy' for a while and probably COULD do with a price increase.

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...