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What beats a Nantex swarm? (tournament analysis)

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So far my actual read on bugs is rock choice and placement super matter against them. They want to get that bullseye joust with 2+crackshots on target, which is what I saw in the successful games they had. 

Therefore headsim says placing the rocks so they have to either telegraph their engage or break up the block and become susceptible to acing is the route to take.

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2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I think they’d be okay at 33 pts. 6 little bugs is okay. 6 with upgrades and a bid ... 🤯

I’m also curious if people are going to start bringing their Traj Sims any...

34 sounds good. Disallows 6 and is still 2 points cheaper than the 2nd cheapest generic i4. If you want to run 6 Nantex, run the i3 Stalgasian Hive Guard, who should move up to the 30 point mark.

But as you suggested, 33 would works for me if 34 didn't happen.

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So in answer to the question, What beats a Nantex Swarm?

The majority reply, a points increase 😆

I do think both Generic Nantex's are 2 points too cheap, but would an I5 beef list do well against it?

Nym, Talonbane, Kavil, Serrisu, might punch hard enough.

Nym brings proton bombs and Dorsal

Serrisu packs Cluster Missiles

Kavil with Dorsal and maybe Sesimic

Talonbane with Predator/Contraband Cybernetics

Edited by Scum4Life

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7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Same team, but there are many more options to defeat the I3s, so I'm not as annoyed by it.

Agreed it's not nearly as egregious.  Almost every ship has an I3 Generic that can at least survive to fire back.  Init kills are a huge part of what makes the bugs scary.  

BUT, if I had my way, the I3 would still cost at least 32 preferably 33.  If FFG smacks down the PAA but leaves the SHG alone, you'll still see spamtex all over the cut.

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4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

How about good old Boba and Emon?

I mean, I don't know, but I suddenly fancy a game.

Bombs seem like they're either very much an answer or not at all. Unshielded ace-y ships really don't like free damage, and the area denial is potentially huge for stopping them from getting bullseyes or doing their groups-of-three-kinda-sorta-joust thing we've seen a few times. However, they can still just rotate their mobile arc to get around it, and they've got the maneuverability to just dip out of the way of the bombs. 

Overall, definitive maybe-needs testing.

Edited by Npmartian

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If I did my math correctly, SuperWhisper (Whisper with juke, stealth device, fifth brother) can be a pretty good counter. 
If she evade all bulleye arc (easier said than done, but she move fast and weirdly enough that a strong player can probably do it.) she can shoot one nantex, get an evade token or strip a focus, and then have something like : evade, evade, focus, force. At that point, she only has 15% chance to lose her stealth device, after 6 attack with 2 dice and focus. If the player that pilot her is good at engagement and range control, she can probably only get shot at like 3-4 times, and will probably never take damage. At that point, it's a matter of patience, perfect play, and plinking half a nantex and running away with it. 
Who should her wingmate be at this point? :P
Supernatural darth vader (or precog) or something similar?

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What beats a Nantex swarm? (tournament analysis)

There are many options that can beat a Nantex swarm. For example; 

-Resistance 5s (Zizi, Tali, L'ulo, Jarek + Kaz or whatever) flown by someone with decent skill 

-Aforementioned Boba/Emon, because of secondary firing arcs and bombs

-Deadman's Switch builds, either mass swarm or multiple large base ships

-Jakku Gunrunners used well with an I6 turret carrier to punish (looking at you, Scum Han/Dengar)

-Dual Rebel Falcons who dishonorably unjoust

-Hey look, there's Biggs

-Sloane Swarm

-builds that mess with turn zero (Boba Crew, Dormitz, Tobias, Morallo, Resistance Han) and provide earlier flanks

-Most other builds that move last and have secondary firing arcs

But the real question isn't what beats a Nantex swarm, it is what are people willing to fly that also gives them a chance in other matchups. And that's where the pain is right now. 

I agree, the Nantexes got priced down a bit too much, but I am fine with Nantexes right now. It has finally given force users something to be wary of, because of the Crack Shot and the secondary arcs with those dials. The meta is shifting, discouraged players need to get out of the stale sandbox swarm/force user builds of the last year and evolve. 

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I find it hilarious that just over a month ago people were saying that the Nantex wasn't worth flying, and now it is the dominant meta. They dropped the points a little too far and we can expect to see the point cost on that ship go back up. How to beat a Nantex swarm? Make them scatter (asteroids and bombs do this well), get them stressed (they have very limited blues and can't reposition while stressed), and pick them off from a distance. The fact that they can only get at best a single mod on their attacks is also a huge weakness. Yes the swarm is strong, but they are a highly skill dependent ship and difficult to master. 

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58 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

What about someone that likes flying, say, 5 X-Wings?  The bugs absolutely stomp that list.  It's way more than just "Oh Noez, muh Aces!"

Initiative 1-3 generics are not competitive when I4 Nantex swarms are prevalent.

There might be an exception somewhere, but it largely holds up. 

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What about some pre maneuver ships? Have not run them against Nantex, but its good vs things like sinker swarm. Bait them, gtfo dodge and kill with the other two ships. If you can drop two nantexes by being cagey and still have three ships on board all with pre-move, you should have the game in the bag. Its going to be a lot of running and plinking when you can, but the nantex will begin taking damage and eventually dropping. Just dont get trapped in a corner. You obviously are not precoging every turn. Its for the GTFO times and engage and kill turns. Dial in a 5 straight/3 bank toward the enemy and get to safety if they turn toward you, if not, you land right next to them and action up for prime shots. Marcel took DD ADV Ric to worlds. Its dodgey AF. Precog Chopper Mace is one of my favorite ships to fly. The precog boost 5k-get-your-force back-while-landing-behind-your-enemy-at-range1-and-jamming-them is money. For Obi, I usually like r2a6 and a bid, but desperate times call for desperate measures. 10pt get out of jail free card for Obi, since ship count seems to be increasing with every pts update.

Ric Olié (45)
Daredevil (2)
Advanced Sensors (10)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (49)
Precognitive Reflexes (10)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (4)

Mace Windu (46)
Precognitive Reflexes (7)
C1-10P (7)
Delta-7B (18)
Total: 198

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1 hour ago, wurms said:

Ric Olié (45)

Daredevil (2)
Advanced Sensors (10)

Obi-Wan Kenobi (49)
Precognitive Reflexes (10)
Calibrated Laser Targeting (4)

Mace Windu (46)
Precognitive Reflexes (7)
C1-10P (7)
Delta-7B (18)
Total: 198

Expect a 4pt bid on average, which makes me nervous that the bugs will eat Mace alive unless you cut some upgrades

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5 hours ago, Cloaker said:

But the real question isn't what beats a Nantex swarm, it is what are people willing to fly that also gives them a chance in other matchups. And that's where the pain is right now. 

I think that is a decent question for the tournament scene, but I worry that the Nantex is amplifying the 'Boba problem' for the casual scene, in that it is a bit too predatory towards certain types of lists.

When the difference between a top tier competitive list and an average 'moderately synergistic' casual list is too high, games tend to fail, because it creates a 'noob stomper' effect, as there is no real way to prevent people from taking the good stuff into casual scenes on purpose or by accident, and thus your main userbase financially supporting the game dies off, and the playerbase that are 'evolving' into tournament players never bother to try at a higher level because the game seems to not care about you having fun, expressing yourself, or being fair if you aren't flying the best stuff.

In theory, any moderately well designed list should at least preform decently against any other list as to be able to play out a fun game, even if the winrate is really low or it can't realistically win. I worry the Nantex is going to result in a lot of 'total blowouts' where a player has one too many miserable nights of play to keep going, more than it skewing tournament results.

A major problem Boba had compared to other high winrate lists like say... Imp aces... was the fact that a 'kitchen table' list never got to accomplish anything vs said list, more than it was too strong. A huge redeeming feature of Imp Aces is that a new player proooobably is going to get at least one big turn where they blow up a really scary piece. This is true regardless really of what list your using, even if your playing with a core box+2 blister list with super limited options to 'tech' their list, and the Imp Aces are using a super slick tournament tier list.

I don't see it being realistic to have those 'fun' moments in a game where a Nantex list is kicking a list that didn't plan to play vs it (or any list) around, which means for most practical purposes the game isn't just lost at listbuilding, but is going to be an unfun game for one player at listbuilding, which is a way more critical issue. Charlie "Core+2 Blisterpacks" McNewbie is going to have absolutely no fun playing X-wing any time someone takes 6 Nantex to the table at their local scene.

Edited by dezzmont

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15 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

What about someone that likes flying, say, 5 X-Wings?  The bugs absolutely stomp that list.  It's way more than just "Oh Noez, muh Aces!"

Unfortunately the majority of lists will absolutely stomp 5 X-wings, it is not and have never been a top tier list. 

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16 hours ago, Cloaker said:

What beats a Nantex swarm? (tournament analysis)

There are many options that can beat a Nantex swarm. For example; 

-Resistance 5s (Zizi, Tali, L'ulo, Jarek + Kaz or whatever) flown by someone with decent skill 

-Aforementioned Boba/Emon, because of secondary firing arcs and bombs

-Deadman's Switch builds, either mass swarm or multiple large base ships

-Jakku Gunrunners used well with an I6 turret carrier to punish (looking at you, Scum Han/Dengar)

-Dual Rebel Falcons who dishonorably unjoust

-Hey look, there's Biggs

-Sloane Swarm

-builds that mess with turn zero (Boba Crew, Dormitz, Tobias, Morallo, Resistance Han) and provide earlier flanks

-Most other builds that move last and have secondary firing arcs

But the real question isn't what beats a Nantex swarm, it is what are people willing to fly that also gives them a chance in other matchups. And that's where the pain is right now. 

I agree, the Nantexes got priced down a bit too much, but I am fine with Nantexes right now. It has finally given force users something to be wary of, because of the Crack Shot and the secondary arcs with those dials. The meta is shifting, discouraged players need to get out of the stale sandbox swarm/force user builds of the last year and evolve. 

I think this is like with Leia-crew, Slave 1 title, etc. all over again. Ever since Ensnare got nerfed, people where not touching the Nantex - so FFG brings it so low in points that it becomes such an obvious choice and people start to look at how to fly it and it gets included in peoples mind when it comes to list building and this is good.

In this case it is not all too bad, because you have to be a good player to leverage on those bull-eyes and the fact that you cannot boost without also rotating your arc which might end up pointing in the wrong direction limiting your options differently from flying e.g. a RZ-2 A-wing which can do as it pleases and without any drop in agility.

It will get bumbed back up in points, I imagine the I3 Stalgasin will remain at 29 points, as there are many other I3 which are also able to swarm (looking at you I3 "Baron of the Empire" at 28 points, which is just hiding under the meta-surface I think), and then the I4 petranaki will be raised slightly to 31-33. Then you are still able to fly 6 I4 Petranaki, but without upgrades and/or bid - and they there are many other I4 and higher ships which will now have a chance to run that list over.

I also think the are going to be some interesting changes to the meta when the next wave arrives, I think that First Order are presently poised to become the next meta-monster.... (if they are infact not already), we might not need a points adjustment at all.
 

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3 hours ago, Sciencius said:

Unfortunately the majority of lists will absolutely stomp 5 X-wings, it is not and have never been a top tier list. 

The majority of good lists. I think that 5x (and also 5 K-Fighters) are solid as a mid-tier casual night list, but won't do better than going even at a tournament.

Edited by Npmartian

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