Standby Woes

[Memorare 206]

If there is one rule I want changed, its standby.

With the introduction of the clones, its just a royal pain in the Nute Gunray.  My least favorite part (currently) is the standby unit hammering another unit, rather than the one that triggered the activation. It's super duper fun to have Dooku shot by the clone standby ball when a unit of B1s moves within range. Oh and I loved that put out an upgrade that extends the standby range! That's super fun and not oppressive to play against when playing against Clones and Panda Bear.

Nothing says fun like giant defence balls in a wargame! 

Feel free to share your least favorite rule in this game we love.

 

Disclaimer: I love Legion and play it weekly. Just, ya know, she isn't a flawless lady. 

[Vector Strike 623]

I agree. I think the best solution for that is just consider Standby a non-green token - in other words, not shareable.

[NetCop 107]

I also think the change should exclude standby from sharing. Padme can share it with the tank. Anakin is coming with the same keyword from his 3-pip card. It's going to be worse and worse only.

[5particus 205]

Personally i think that the basic Standby is almost useless and the clone sharing only makes it semi useful.

Range 2 is no good if pretty much every unit in the game (except heroes) has a range 3 weapon and it gets stripped when they get shot. in that situation it is pretty much a wasted action.

I think it would be better for standby to be increased to Range 3 but remove the ability to spend aims on it. It is supposed to be a reaction shot when the enemy comes into range so you shouldnt be able to take the time to aim for it.

if this was done i think sentinel would go up to range 4, with a cost increase (maybe to 8-10 points)

 

[lologrelol 488]

Edit*

Just reread standby and realized there is no rule that says you must target the activated unit with an attack.

That's nuts.

Edited September 11 by lologrelol

[SailorMeni 287]

1 hour ago, Memorare said:

It's super duper fun to have Dooku shot by the clone standby ball when a unit of B1s moves within range.

You could argue that nothing forces you to do actions in standby range. But it's super fun when your best option is doing nothing at all. So I second standby sharing for clones is the worst mechanic in legion at the moment.

[Dalae 57]

2 hours ago, Vector Strike said:

I agree. I think the best solution for that is just consider Standby a non-green token - in other words, not shareable.

+1000. Sharing Standby tokens allows to focus the attacks of your army on the most powerful/appropriate units (the Padme+Saber tank combo is plainly nasty)

[Memorare 206]

2 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Edit*

Just reread standby and realized there is no rule that says you must target the activated unit with an attack.

That's nuts.

Yeah. Bit of an oppsie in the rule design on that one. 

[Alpha17 2,853]

This thread.

 

 

Standby sharing can be annoying, but it's no where near as bad as some people make it out to be.  Unlike Imperials, the Republic doesn't get hardly any free attacks out of this, they just trade them around.  Maximizing army efficiency and working together effectively are spot on for the GAR.  Personally, I'll get maybe a standby or two off a round, and that's it.  Hardly oppressive, and relatively easy to counter with units available to every army. 

If it has to change, and I'm sure it will just to appease players, changing how it works with suppression, or the number of times a unit can spend a standby per round would be easy ways to do it without gutting the faction. 

 

[bllaw 250]

Standby sharing is what makes GAR any good. Have you seen how expensive clones are...? They are paying a pretty penny for this ability. It's just the way clones work and I rly hope  they never change their standby abilities. If you don't like it, shoot the unit with the standby. Not that hard

[thepopemobile100 977]

3 minutes ago, bllaw said:

If you don't like it, shoot the unit with the standby. Not that hard

It isn't always that simple, and it never is at a competitive level. Clones can share tokens through LOS blocking terrain which makes it nigh impossible to remove standby tokens if positioned properly.

Any mechanic that doesn't have any real counter-play options is bad for the game itself regardless of how you feel.

[Derpfish 76]

The fact you can now have a 2-man squad hide behind a wall and standby and now you cannot get anywhere NEAR A clone setup is silly.

 

Welcome to Clone Fortress 2.  After [REDACTED] years in development, HOPEFULLY, it will have been worth the weight.

[Han Singular 14]

54 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

It isn't always that simple, and it never is at a competitive level. Clones can share tokens through LOS blocking terrain which makes it nigh impossible to remove standby tokens if positioned properly.

Any mechanic that doesn't have any real counter-play options is bad for the game itself regardless of how you feel.

I think they do have to have LOS to the unit they are sharing to/from, but otherwise I agree. The ability to rearrange the action economy of your units to give 2-3 more attacks to your "better" heavy weapon groups (Phase II's with a Z6/mortar, ARC's with the sniper) in a round AND let you attack a unit other than the one that triggered the standby AND ignore the suppression of the unit it is shared to is not fun and interactive.

[syrath 1,316]

I always think that stats bear out if something is overbalanced , at the moment the stats appear to be saying that the republic are winning their match upa at least when Arcs are included, is this down to an unbalance or is it because of unfamiliar units and tactics coming into play. Time will tell as always and balance will eventually win out. 

Perhaps once the imperial special forces and clan wren will imbalance the game further

[lologrelol 488]

The thing is, clones just don't have access to a lot of the token efficiency other factions have access to.

They don't have the Veers/shores aim token spam that imperials have.

They don't have the fast combat or self sufficient units rebels have.

They don't have the immune suppression/activation control of the droids.

All clone troopers are more expensive than their counterparts. We don't get tokens for free, we have to syphon them from other units.

Edited September 12 by lologrelol

[SailorMeni 287]

49 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

All clone troopers are more expensive than their counterparts. We don't get tokens for free, we have to syphon them from other units.

But you do: Reliable on Phase 2s and Tactical on Rex/ARCs give free Tokens. Those are the essential Troops used and they are all way underpriced.

Upgrading P1 (fair priced) to P2 costs 8 Points and you get +1 courage, the training slot and reliable 1. You could argue that each of those rules is worth 8 points on its own.

And compare ARC strike team to the others: +4 points for better save (+ impervious with surge token share), better dice pool and critical. You lose pierce but get it back via the free aim token. Pay a bit more and get an extra wound and even better dice pool.

If clones were an expensive elite army, they should have standard 9 activations, 10 with drawbacks. ATM you can easily field 11 acts with no drawback.

[player5006253 45]

1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

The thing is, clones just don't have access to a lot of the token efficiency other factions have access to.

They don't have the Veers/shores aim token spam that imperials have.

They don't have the fast combat or self sufficient units rebels have.

They don't have the immune suppression/activation control of the droids.

All clone troopers are more expensive than their counterparts. We don't get tokens for free, we have to syphon them from other units.

 

They also don't have the weaknesses baked into those factions. Clones are expensive, but they come out of the gate with the offense of a rebel trooper and the defense of a stormtrooper. Plus they share tokens and have fire support. GAR has nothing to complain about, and if standby sharing pops they will still be fine, maybe even on the stronger end of fine.

[lologrelol 488]

35 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

Upgrading P1 (fair priced) to P2 costs 8 Points and you get +1 courage, the training slot and reliable 1. You could argue that each of those rules is worth 8 points on its own.

Each of those rules should cost 8pts on their own?!

Give me some of what you're smoking!

17 minutes ago, player5006253 said:

 

They also don't have the weaknesses baked into those factions. Clones are expensive, but they come out of the gate with the offense of a rebel trooper and the defense of a stormtrooper. Plus they share tokens and have fire support. GAR has nothing to complain about, and if standby sharing pops they will still be fine, maybe even on the stronger end of fine.

Yeah I agree that clones will still be fine without standby sharing. But, they do pay for their advancements in their points costs.

I'd be curious to see how the faction changes if they take away clone standby sharing.

I still think Exemplar should stay the same. Units with that rule seem to have been built with such an ability in mind.

[player5006253 45]

12 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

Each of those rules should cost 8pts on their own?!

Give me some of what you're smoking!

Yeah I agree that clones will still be fine without standby sharing. But, they do pay for their advancements in their points costs.

I'd be curious to see how the faction changes if they take away clone standby sharing.

I still think Exemplar should stay the same. Units with that rule seem to have been built with such an ability in mind.

I mean, they pay for their advancements through better dice alone. Compare a phase 1 to a Stormtrooper. 2 more points for a black offense instead of white. I'd take that every day of the week. Then trade precise for token sharing and fire support? Sign me up! 

 

I'm not on the Republic is OP bandwagon. I'm just on the keep it reigned in or everyone stops having fun wagon.  When one out of four factions makes up 80% of the top ten in the last competitive scene, there is an issue

[Khobai 371]

2 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

If clones were an expensive elite army, they should have standard 9 activations, 10 with drawbacks. ATM you can easily field 11 acts with no drawback.

This. Clones getting upwards of 11 activations is complete BS.

They get all the advantages of being an elite faction without any of the disadvantages they should have.

1 hour ago, player5006253 said:

I mean, they pay for their advancements through better dice alone. Compare a phase 1 to a Stormtrooper. 2 more points for a black offense instead of white. I'd take that every day of the week. Then trade precise for token sharing and fire support? Sign me up!

Same. I would gladly pay more points for stormtroopers if they turned into clonetroopers.

Nobody in their right mind sees having to pay more points for clonetroopers as being a disadvantage.

What clones get for their points cost is a BARGAIN.

Edited September 12 by Khobai

[Memorare 206]

"Just shot the unit with standby" is up there with "just play better" in advice.  

It can be virtually impossible to shot off the standby, especially with the arrival of range 3 standby or simply having a unit at the back out of range. 

 

[Khobai 371]

  

Its possible even without R2.

14 hours ago, bllaw said:

Standby sharing is what makes GAR any good. Have you seen how expensive clones are...? They are paying a pretty penny for this ability. It's just the way clones work and I rly hope  they never change their standby abilities. If you don't like it, shoot the unit with the standby. Not that hard

Um you cant. They hide the units with standby tokens behind terrain. Try again your argument is fail.

And what pretty penny is GAR paying? Clone MK1s cost the same as shoretroopers but shoretroopers dont get standby sharing. GAR definitely isnt paying extra for standby token sharing when their units essentially cost the same as shoretroopers.

GAR gets all the benefits of standby with none of the downsides.

Theyll do crap where they hide like 4 naked mk I clonetroopers behind terrain where you cant see them. Theyll all h ve standby tokens. And then the MK2s will have overwatch and pull off the standby tokens from the MK1s and shoot you a bunch of times. And theres nothing you can do about it because you cant shoot the units with standby tokens.

Thats why standby token sharing is broken. Because the rules that normally balance standby are non-existent for clones.

 

Edited September 12 by Khobai

[Memorare 206]

11 activations is getting possible with R2 but that's a different issue. The woes of a cheap unit with secret mission!

[syrath 1,316]

Id argue that R2 is too cheap for what he brings to the tablr.

[Khobai 371]

It should be mandatory to take C3PO with R2D2

I also think strike teams should be detachments. You should have to take a regular unit in order to take a strike team. And increase the special forces count to 4.

They need to make it impossible to spam cheap non-corps activations. If they keep the cheap activations limited to naked corp units that isnt a problem. Its only a problem when players can combine cheap naked corps units with cheap non-corps units, like R2 and strike teams, and end up with 11 activations.

Edited September 12 by Khobai