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Dwing

Ties too expensive?... Everything else to cheap?

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The tie fighter, the stable the game is supposedly balanced after. Is it just me that is beginning to think the common Tie fighter is lacking, trying a swarm without Howlrunner is super hard to do much with, compared to the droid brain, cheap missil swarm of the CIS or the FO tie which get a better dial, shield and tl for a few points more. What do you think, the normal tie fighter and some of the named pilots cound go down a few points? 

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35 minutes ago, Dwing said:

The tie fighter, the stable the game is supposedly balanced after. Is it just me that is beginning to think the common Tie fighter is lacking, trying a swarm without Howlrunner is super hard to do much with, compared to the droid brain, cheap missil swarm of the CIS or the FO tie which get a better dial, shield and tl for a few points more. What do you think, the normal tie fighter and some of the named pilots cound go down a few points? 

Some TIE Acadamy pilots just made top 16 in the last two Galaxies events.

Also, trying to do a swarm without Howlrunner doesn't work because Howlrunner is the force multiplier to make swarms work better.

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8 minutes ago, Porkchop Express said:

Some TIE Acadamy pilots just made top 16 in the last two Galaxies events.

Also, trying to do a swarm without Howlrunner doesn't work because Howlrunner is the force multiplier to make swarms work better.

But should the standard ties not be cheaper then, so Howlrunner is not a must. 

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Just now, miguelj said:

The "It made the cut this one time" is a poor metric to argue balance on.

It's a decent metric of "this is a lot less trash than many other things."

The basic TIE Fighter, for example blows the pants off of Z-95s.  There's a lot of ships in worse shape than the basic TIE fighter.

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18 minutes ago, Dwing said:

But should the standard ties not be cheaper then, so Howlrunner is not a must. 

But then you also take Howlrunner anyway and have something more beast.

Swarm is not the only answer though. They're cheap enough to be a small filler contingent, but then you have to balance the squad, which is not as easy as taking all of them, or none of them.

Sloane and Ruthless are a couple other options that push an all of them approach further. 

Basically, none of these rubbish ships stand alone, they all need a thing.

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They have a place in Sloane swarms (either RAC + 4 or a reaper with 4 academies and 2 interceptors), as well as decent filler in ace squads like Vader, Duchess/Soontir, and 3 academies. Recently the whole 2 aces + 2-3 cheap filler generics archetype has been one of my favorites to fly.

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15 minutes ago, Des Darklighter said:

They have a place in Sloane swarms (either RAC + 4 or a reaper with 4 academies and 2 interceptors), as well as decent filler in ace squads like Vader, Duchess/Soontir, and 3 academies. Recently the whole 2 aces + 2-3 cheap filler generics archetype has been one of my favorites to fly.

I get that they are good fillers, but its a shame something pretty movie thematic as a tie swarm seems to be locked into useing Howlrunner. 

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Maybe they need to be 21pts so you can have 7 plus an ace like Soontir or GI instead of Howl? But then you will see Sloane on Reaper + 7. Is that a problem?

Scarif Base Pilot (39)
Admiral Sloane (9)
Informant (5)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)

Academy Pilot (21)
Total: 200

 

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8 minutes ago, Dwing said:

I get that they are good fillers, but its a shame something pretty movie thematic as a tie swarm seems to be locked into useing Howlrunner. 

How many successful non-Howl lists do people need to show you too convince you that they fit in a lot of squads?

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Just now, hargleblarg said:

How many successful non-Howl lists do people need to show you too convince you that they fit in a lot of squads?

Well if you see my original post, a swarm without Howlie is the main thing im asking about, lists where they consist about half they points are not really tie swarms are they? 

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8 minutes ago, Dwing said:

I get that they are good fillers, but its a shame something pretty movie thematic as a tie swarm seems to be locked into useing Howlrunner. 

I don't know that I'd characterize things that way.

  • Howlswarm.
  • Sloane Swarm (principally Reaper and VT-49 variants, but probably works OK with a Lambda shuttle, too).
  • Filler for Aces.

That's three really different broad archetypes and ways to fly TIEs.

1 hour ago, Dwing said:

The tie fighter, the stable the game is supposedly balanced after. Is it just me that is beginning to think the common Tie fighter is lacking, trying a swarm without Howlrunner is super hard to do much with, compared to the droid brain, cheap missil swarm of the CIS or the FO tie which get a better dial, shield and tl for a few points more. What do you think, the normal tie fighter and some of the named pilots cound go down a few points? 

Also, to go back to this, more likely other stuff is too cheap, than TIEs to expensive.  Like, CIS kinda get more toys than I think they should.  I'd probably rather see 26 point TIE/fo and Torrents and Scyks than 21 point TIEs.  I'd rather bring down a bit the power level than increase it.

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2 minutes ago, Dwing said:

Well if you see my original post, a swarm without Howlie is the main thing im asking about, lists where they consist about half they points are not really tie swarms are they? 

2-die swarms pretty much always need a strong support piece to do well. The empire is fortunate in that they have several tools, not just Howlrunner, to accomplish this.

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Honestly, the TIE fighter is in a good spot, and It's role is exactly the same as it is in the movies: Cheap cannon fodder with a focus on getting results no matter what. Sloane swarms don't care about dead ties, they actually kinda want them dead. Imperial aces use them just like in the movies, as the grunts to fight the heros while they get ready to do the real damage. I like to think that they are the Imperial evolution of the Torrent, becoming less focused on being a hardy protector and more on fighting the good guys when their boss is taking a break

They're the perfect henchman ship!  

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On 9/7/2020 at 5:08 PM, Dwing said:

I get that they are good fillers, but its a shame something pretty movie thematic as a tie swarm seems to be locked into useing Howlrunner. 

Yes. 

The Imperial TIE swarm is definitely having an identity crisis. 

Hopefully, we'll see it back to its rightful place in the cuts in the next couple metas. 

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I think TIEs are in a good space of 'not good if you just mindlessly generically spam a ton of them, but they do work when you tactically build a more nuanced list that has moving parts.'

That is a better spot to be in, regardless of the list's power level, than some other things in X-wing right now. It is more interesting for lists to have unique upsides (ex: A TIE swarm with Howlrunner being a fragile 'command ship' that can still ace about a bit) than for a given generic chasis to be efficient without the context of other abilities, as long as it isn't made deliberately bad to account for said synergies.

I think the main issue is that TIEs lean too hard on a few too gimmicks (ex: Sloane Swarm or other 4+ ties plus crewed large, Howlrunner+Iden swarms), more than their points cost. Stuff like miniswarm support that encourages you to run exactly 3 TIEs (Maybe a TIE pilot who can assign a beneficial condition card to other TIE/LNs, at either a limited number or with inverse scaling on their power past 2-3, for example? Or a 3 dot limited talent which cares about other copies) would be cool.

But ultimately its a nice ship that sees decent play and is supported in multiple archetypes with multiple viable 'modes' to use it, which is well ahead of the curve in X-wing for ship playability.

Edited by dezzmont

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On 9/7/2020 at 10:34 PM, Dwing said:

The tie fighter, the stable the game is supposedly balanced after. Is it just me that is beginning to think the common Tie fighter is lacking, trying a swarm without Howlrunner is super hard to do much with, compared to the droid brain, cheap missil swarm of the CIS or the FO tie which get a better dial, shield and tl for a few points more. What do you think, the normal tie fighter and some of the named pilots cound go down a few points? 

Ofcourse the TIE Swarm gets a lot better by using Howlrunner, but e.g. the Vulture swarm cannot stand alone by it self either? The Vulture swarms needs Capt. Sear or another TA-175 carrier to be top-competitative also. I have not seen a top game won with just generic Vultures alone? Nor a game won with just TIE FO generics?   

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18 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Ofcourse the TIE Swarm gets a lot better by using Howlrunner, but e.g. the Vulture swarm cannot stand alone by it self either? The Vulture swarms needs Capt. Sear or another TA-175 carrier to be top-competitative also. I have not seen a top game won with just generic Vultures alone? Nor a game won with just TIE FO generics?   

Except the Las Vegas grand championship winning list you mean (one of the last major pre-Covid19 tournaments). 6 vultures, 2 hyenas with plasma torps. That list did very well in local tournaments after that as well.

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55 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

Ofcourse the TIE Swarm gets a lot better by using Howlrunner, but e.g. the Vulture swarm cannot stand alone by it self either? The Vulture swarms needs Capt. Sear or another TA-175 carrier to be top-competitative also. I have not seen a top game won with just generic Vultures alone? Nor a game won with just TIE FO generics?   

No but those ships are better support in any other list than the regular tue is. 2.0 is much more a dice game for better and worse. Evades are nerfed and Ties can take a tl and save an action for later. Droids have their droifocus shareing, cheap missil es and ability to be turrets. Its not like the common Tie is way overcosted or unplayable, just seem a little to expensive. 

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2 hours ago, Sciencius said:

Ofcourse the TIE Swarm gets a lot better by using Howlrunner, but e.g. the Vulture swarm cannot stand alone by it self either? The Vulture swarms needs Capt. Sear or another TA-175 carrier to be top-competitative also. I have not seen a top game won with just generic Vultures alone? Nor a game won with just TIE FO generics?   

LVO. Not a single relay to be found there. And it was the winner’s list. Tts has had some events where another vulture and hyena swarm variant make a splash without relays. It can happen.

youre correct Focho hasn’t won a big event yet, but it’s gotten up there. Biggest thing keeping Focho down now are the Spamtex builds and maybe some swarms doing it better.

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