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theBitterFig

Concentrate Your Fire - LAAT Preview

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2 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Considering how good stress-free linking is especially for Hawke who could reposition at the end phase to get around faster I'm guessing 12-14pt.

12 points is the fairly standard cost of a force point, so that would be rather cheap in my book. I think only Seventh Sister and Kylo Ren cost less than 12 points, IIRC.

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@theBitterFig I agree it doesn't look good for my newest favorite ship. But don't forget I'm one hundred percent that dumb***** who is still trying to make a pure N-1 list work 😂 So I'm gonna try. Mostly I was looking at even getting some cheap ion or cluster missiles on maybe even only two of them, and hopefully still have some room for some kind of force multiplier like some gunners or even just a Jedi maybe? I've got some ideas, but without points costs I'm not really committing to anything. I do agree though that at it's stat line, if I can't get a fourth in a list with some sense of efficiency, I'm probably screwed. But we'll just have to throw it down and see where it goes.

@Darth Meanie it's a Gunship with 7 barrels of death covering all 360° of fire. If anything should be the 'spray fire all over the place' ship, it should be this absolute unit gun tank lol 😆 and yes I agree that a bulls eye is a good way to put out limits and reward skill, but only where appropriate. (Glares daggers at Proton Rockets) On some things where you have a tool set to help aim that beam, like CLT, it works really well. But on this thing? With that dial? And no reposition? At these Initiative values? If you catch someone in your bullseye with this thing, it's going to be more their own stupid fault for getting in front of you than it will be yours for lining it up. It's going to be like Tali all over again. You take it for something other than it's bullseye trigger. I know I'll be taking Aayla for focus>coord and a Force. Her bullseye trigger is just going to be this weird thing that *might* happen like once a game, if I'm very lucky. 

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13 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

She costs not spending your action on reinforce so you die less fast.

Considering how good stress-free linking is especially for Hawke who could reposition at the end phase to get around faster I'm guessing 12-14pt.

I'm not thinking of her necessarily on a LAAT, but on anything she can ride. Like on a ARC even, which just focuses most of the time anyway.

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1. Liking how this opens up more options for Republic list buikding outside of Jedi while also building on Jedi/Clone combined arms.

2. Suppressive Gunner gives S&V,  the other factions too, an interesting "support" option for lists with gunner slots on higher init ships. Han already being touched on but Nym, Dengar, Kavil, and Marauder 'Sprays also can step into the role as well. Probably a few I'm missing.

Massed Suppressive fire might also be interesting on goon/gun Y "swarms", grey/golds for Rebs. Suppressive Gunner doesn't have a cap on the number of tokens the target can have on them, and removing only deplete 1/blue maneuver means 3 red "aces" could have a pretty hard choice if they end up in multiple arcs.

Edited by Hiemfire

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3 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm not saying it is good, but massed Strikers with Supressive Gunner could stack a ton of depletes onto ships.

Those too. :D

Might be variably priced based on primary attack value or init. 3 dice attacks have a higher chance of getting the requisite focus result, higher init has more of a chance of the effect having value that round.

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7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Those too. :D

Might be variably priced based on primary attack value or init. 3 dice attacks have a higher chance of getting the requisite focus result, higher init has more of a chance of the effect having value that round.

Send in the TIE Aggressors! They shall obnoxiously potter around the battlefield, spamming suppressing fire and taking linked barrel roll into evade actions!

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4 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

Send in the TIE Aggressors! They shall obnoxiously potter around the battlefield, spamming suppressing fire and taking linked barrel roll into evade actions!

I really wish FFG would re-release them in 2.0... :( I can only proxy them on the table thanks to the ships themselves costing an arm anf a leg to get now...

Edited by Hiemfire

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-Suppressive gunner is the card Shara in her Arc170 has waited for, like way back. But she still needs a lock first, so worth it?

 

One problem Suppressive gunner has, is that you need to roll or otherwise obtain a focus result. No focus result, no effect (a bit like Garven, who somehow never manages to get a focus result when you need him to spend the focus).

 

-Hawk requires so much setup, the others have to go fast and end up within 1, while Hawk self has problems going so fast. So like Swoop pretty much an empty pilot ability.

 

-wonder how much Warthog will be, that ability is really huge! 

And hilariously could lead to more final salvos, as everyone got killed by the end of the round.

 

Edited by Managarmr
Hit "post" button early by accident

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25 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

One problem Suppressive gunner has, is that you need to roll or otherwise obtain a focus result. No focus result, no effect (a bit like Garven, who somehow never manages to get a focus result when you need him to spend the focus).

Same as poor Ten Numb.

Fantastic, just not reliable 😕

25 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Hawk requires so much setup, the others have to go fast and end up within 1, while Hawk self has problems going so fast. So like Swoop pretty much an empty pilot ability.

Same team. Synergy-repositions never really work well. No one will be arc-dodging within range 1 of a shuttle or carrier ship. But at the same time if you make it range 2-3 it could become far too powerful, especially as a force multiplier.

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27 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

-Hawk requires so much setup, the others have to go fast and end up within 1, while Hawk self has problems going so fast. So like Swoop pretty much an empty pilot ability.

It's going to be a lot easier, though.  Hawk being at the heart of a group, and having that entire group boost in the end phase, is like, *actually possible* while Swoop required such absurdly specific moves that it never was going to work.  Something like Hawk/ARC/ARC/[Best Ace You Can Afford] can start with Hawk between the two ARCs, and then go 3-straight or bank, then boost everyone.  That's 7 base lengths on ARCs.  That's one fast-moving anvil.  Don't even have to clear the strain to use the ability again.

The fact that Hawk only has to catch up to the ARCs, rather than the ARCs finish their maneuvers near Swoop, is a pretty huge difference.  I'd guess it'll be average at best, but viable jank?  Sure.  Swoop wasn't even close to that.

*edit*

I think it's worth thinking of Hawk more like Moff Jerjerod than something else.  It's a tool which can add a lot of speed, but not for arc dodging.  I mean, clearly.  End-phase arc dodging doesn't work.

Edited by theBitterFig

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1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

One problem Suppressive gunner has, is that you need to roll or otherwise obtain a focus result. No focus result, no effect (a bit like Garven, who somehow never manages to get a focus result when you need him to spend the focus).

It's actually much worse than Garven, because you need to both roll the Focus result, and have nothing better to do with it. A lot of the time you'll be better off actually furthering your efforts to win the game by modifying the result and pressing for damage. Depleting the enemy is fun, but it doesn't get them off the table.

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On that note too, the more I read and think about Aayla, the more I'm confused what her text ability is even bothered to be printed for. Like if she's on anything that can carry her in the whole faction, she'll only have one defense die natively. And needs a separate ability or token to actually get profit out of her ability. 

So you have to have the attacker in bulls

And either be the target yourself or have it at med range

And botch a die on the defense

And then you get to to spend a token/ability to get something out of that.

Jump through hoops much!? Like at best you make your super dodgy Jedi fighters even more dodgy (read: aggravating). Or if you get this perfect storm of things to go right, +1evade on something. I'd rather they just saved me a point or two and left the ability off lol 😆😂 just give me a Force/link Coord, that's all I want out of her 🤣

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I feel like Suppressive Gunner is being credited too much, when cards that asume that you fail to trigger are usually bad compared to cards that increasee your possibilities of success.

I think it makes sense in a support ship where a lot of the upgrades are centered on having your attacks as a support tool (spending eyes for things different than dmg etc). I feel it would fit a support Y wing etc, in the cases were you don't focus for attack for example, but you use a different action. But having it in a key offensive piece like it has been suggested might be a waste of points.

An interesting thing around that concept is that these LAAT shots paired with the upgrades seem to be support tools more than damage dealing tools. I like that idea a lot, lets see what ends up being.

Yoda allows Jedi to use the purple evade making it virtually white. That might be something to look at, Inquisitor Style.

The pilot that gives boost or barrel at the end of the round has too many conditions for my taste. It might be trying to be a support ship for a list of naboo starfighters, or bombers maybe (repositioning before throwing the bomb sounds good!).

SO MANY NEW TOYS, EXCITING!

Edited by Ferfun

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10 hours ago, Enigami said:

As a Scum player I'm actually pretty excited about Suppressive Gunner. If I understand the order of events right, you can shoot a missile, and if you don't like the roll and have a focus, you can spend the focus for Suppressive Gunner and then use Munitions Failsafe to cancel the remaining results. Which is great for Mag Pulse missiles, since you have very high odds that atleast deplete (or damage) goes through, and if you have an "overkill" result you can spend a spare focus to get a bonus deplete/damage. Cluster Missiles also seems like it could be abused to spread the deplete love to two targets at once. And since Scum has (iirc) the cheapest I6 Missile+Gunner slot ship in Scum Han, I can see some fun janky missile builds to abuse.

Mag Pulse+Failsafe Han + Guri + Fenn with 13 points left to pay whatever for Suppressive Gunner on Han looks like fun degenerate cancer if you're running anything with low agility. Especially RAC, getting double depleted and jammed before you can even shoot is evil.

Wait, you mean Scum Han might be playable?

 

We can't have that much positivity!  Time to screech about how we don't have access to this card and the devs promised everybody would have every card in the game immediately, we swear!

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3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Depleting the enemy is fun, but it doesn't get them off the table.

I recall folks worried about Mag-Pulse Warhead spam before release.  Sure, it's a lot of stuff from a single marginal hit.  However, just spamming Concussion Missiles will leave someone dead, and Deplete-spam doesn't.

I feel like it's worthwhile, however, to compare Suppressive Gunner and Hotshot Gunner.  SupG won't always trigger, and might give up your eyes (maybe you care, maybe you don't) but can deny an opponent red dice (or serve as a way to convert damage).  HSG doesn't cost anything, but there are enough ships out there which often won't have Focus tokens (and they can just use the focus on this defense, before the trigger).  Seems like no one has been too impressed with it at 7 points.

SupG might be similar in the end, not enough value for points.  Still, seems worth feeling out.  Damage isn't symmetric.  Trying to headsim out how various damage races would go is a bit beyond me this late at night.  Probably when I'm clear-headed, too, though.  But it doesn't seem odd that there might be some places where it'd be better to give up a die on attack to deny an opponent a die.  It's also a way to inflict some sort of detriment on a ship you probably can't damage.

It's also crossing my mind that it might be really good on Ion weapons.  Only the first hit does damage, and getting an opponent Depleted might be as good as an Ion in some cases.

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13 hours ago, Enigami said:

As a Scum player I'm actually pretty excited about Suppressive Gunner. If I understand the order of events right, you can shoot a missile, and if you don't like the roll and have a focus, you can spend the focus for Suppressive Gunner and then use Munitions Failsafe to cancel the remaining results. Which is great for Mag Pulse missiles, since you have very high odds that atleast deplete (or damage) goes through, and if you have an "overkill" result you can spend a spare focus to get a bonus deplete/damage. Cluster Missiles also seems like it could be abused to spread the deplete love to two targets at once. And since Scum has (iirc) the cheapest I6 Missile+Gunner slot ship in Scum Han, I can see some fun janky missile builds to abuse.

Mag Pulse+Failsafe Han + Guri + Fenn with 13 points left to pay whatever for Suppressive Gunner on Han looks like fun degenerate cancer if you're running anything with low agility. Especially RAC, getting double depleted and jammed before you can even shoot is evil.

Yes, you can spend a focus on suppressive gunner and then cancel results with munitions failsafe. I'm not certain that's good enough to be worth bringing the mag pulse missiles for, but I'm also cautiously optimistic about suppressive gunner on scum Han. EDIT: failsafe occurs before attack mods, combo doesn't work

Things I'm not excited about in this expansion:

  • Jedi crew
  • Supporting jedi fighters with a LAAT
  • Bullseye abilities
  • LAATs and generic clones getting no table time due to threat of spamtex

Things I'm somewhat interested in, starting with least exciting:

  • Ayla on an ARC
  • Using Hawk to line up a perfect proximity mine drop (thanks Maui)
  • Suppressive gunner on scum han (tbh, suppressive gunner needs to be up around the cost of hotshot gunner or he's going to be popular and make the game real boring as no one can do damage)
  • Wolfpack Warthog alongside some synched console clones (ARCs, missile torrents, protorp Ys)
  • Seeing how cool the LAAT looks alongside a bunch of clone ships
Edited by gadwag
was wrong

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3 hours ago, Ferfun said:

I feel like Suppressive Gunner is being credited too much, when cards that asume that you fail to trigger are usually bad compared to cards that increasee your possibilities of success.

It depends on the price TM

There are plenty of 2 dice attackers that are brought because of utility effects that rarely use the gunner slot now that VTG is basically gone on smalls (Dutch in rebels, for example).

Dutch can be run with a torp or ion turret, but often isn't because the points to value isn't great if he dies before getting off the torp shots, and the ion shots aren't good enough to bust through the defense of some of the more oppressive defensive ships. Suppressive gunner shouldn't be evaluated as 'potentially damage' because it would be a wacky boardstate indeed if taking 1 was worth 1 red dice, so its probably going to be pretty cheap. If it is, its a good way to give your piddly little utility ship something to do with its gun.

This is actually a problem shared by some odd 90% of the ships in the game: If you can't consistently output a comical amount of firepower a turn while maintaining coverage on a super-ace, you do nothing.  That is why a lot of 'on miss' effects are cropping up: Missing sucks, and as long as these options are dirt cheap, they serve to help make ships that can't consistently punch through still generate some positive effect for your side by landing an engagement, which I think is good design: Even if a ship is defensively strong, landing in an arc consistently, even if its only 1 arc a turn, should have a consequence.

It creates a way to increase the consistency of inconsistent options without just adding generic modding to everything, and helps justify say... 'Y-wing escorts' with a mixed fleet because you have a named pilot with a neat ability but the 2 dice gun may as well be 0 in many meta matchups. 

Quote

That thinking just serves to block out a play style,  I think it's boring when every list is some bizarre amalgamation of chassis that wouldn't be seen together in the style of alphabet soup, for any faction. I

@ForceSensitive because I am a dummy who can't figure out multi-page quotes.

There is a balancing act: A lsitbuilder game is bad if you throw just a ton of nonsense together with no-cohesion or can't let people focus on highlighting a piece they really like, true.

But its also bad if the 'listbuilding' is too rote, and is just about tossing the best garbage in because its the best.

A good listbuilding game should be about finding a synergy between options you like and doing something cool by making the list more than the sum of its parts. 5X being 'The Rebel's Thing' is such an awful place for the faction that is known for its mixed fleets and heroic characters to be. Obviously it can go too far the other direction, but it is totally valid, and even ideal, for the optimal list to be having different things play off each other by emphasizing strengths or covering weaknesses, and for not every option to be 'smart' to spam in a list.

The LAAT is an interesting design in that regard because it explicitly is intended for mixed fleets: Its power actively has anti-synergy with its own chasis and exists to boost the effects of other types of ships, mainly fighters who want target lock effects or who need more consistent damage. It also serves as a good mirror for the 'Command Ship' archetype, which is one of the 'themes' of Empire, which helps create a sense of continuity between the two factions while keeping them different.

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56 minutes ago, gadwag said:

Yes, you can spend a focus on suppressive gunner and then cancel results with munitions failsafe. I'm not certain that's good enough to be worth bringing the mag pulse missiles for, but I'm also cautiously optimistic about suppressive gunner on scum Han.

No, you can't spend the focus result and then trigger Munitions Failsafe.

Munitions Failsafe triggers after rolling dice, spending a result is a dice modification, which happens later. If you spend the focus result, you are past the time where you can trigger failsafe. It's the same with all other mods; you have to decide if your roll is bad enough that the mods you have aren't likely to improve it enough to try, so you recover the charge instead.

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34 minutes ago, MarrowHawk said:

No, you can't spend the focus result and then trigger Munitions Failsafe.

Munitions Failsafe triggers after rolling dice, spending a result is a dice modification, which happens later. If you spend the focus result, you are past the time where you can trigger failsafe. It's the same with all other mods; you have to decide if your roll is bad enough that the mods you have aren't likely to improve it enough to try, so you recover the charge instead.

You're right, I misremembered the munitions failsafe wording and forgot it had a timing hook.

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12 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

I really wish FFG would re-release them in 2.0... :( I can only proxy them on the table thanks to the ships themselves costing an arm anf a leg to get now...

I got very lucky and managed to secure a pair of them at a reasonable price second hand recently. It wasn't quite a "Someone selling Starwings at £10 a ship" blind rush to get them, but I jumped on them very, very quickly.

As for Supressive Gunner: I don't expect it to set the world on fire. I hope that it is cheap enough for people to feel comfortable bringing it for those situations where you either don't have a focus/force to spend, or want to hold that mod for the defence. Adding it with the LAAT/i is perfect, as I can foresee many low-value 2-dice shots being made by the ship, and being able to convert that volume of fire into utility will be very welcome. I hope that it is 'viable' for small base ships as well as I like the idea of Duchess carrying one (even if it is a terrible idea!).

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