Jump to content
KaLeu

Xi Class Shuttle article

Recommended Posts

Regarding Frimmel & Pyre:

So I think some of the disconnect everyone is having with Frimmel, in addition to his exaggerated language, is thinking he cares about Pyre's effect specifically.  He's been very clear about this: he only cares that it's a turn 0 effect.  It could be powerful, it could be completely useless, doesn't matter.  Frimmel feels personally attacked because a player is able to do something before the first planning phase completes, and whether or not you agree with that, that is what frimmel is saying.  Any discussion about how Pyre isn't all that strong or disruptive or is in line with other effects won't matter to Frimmel.

We can't solve this issue for Frimmel.  And that means there's literally nothing more to discuss.  Frimmel has shared his feelings on the matter, we can do nothing about it, that's that.  He can take it up with FFG through the established feedback options if he wants; FFG does not read these forums for that kind of community feedback.

 

Regarding Scum Illicits:

IMO most of this discussion has been interesting, and I like hearing what others have to say.  As long as svelok keeps his toxicity out of the conversation, at least.  😕  Just a reminder of why I hate sending people to these forums, especially new players who are considering sinking hundreds of dollars and hours into this hobby if it seems like it'll be a good experience.

But back to illicits.  I suppose it does seem like 1.0 still haunts us, back when illicits were a strong factor in faction identity.  Scum has some style to it, but some of those options have been removed, and others have drifted I suppose?  I like to think of Scum as the Dirty Tactics, Independents, & Mercenaries faction, and some things fit well with that.  I do like that the faction lends itself to a few powerhouse ships that can act as bounty hunters (often good for faction identity), but currently the best of these is Boba who's just a strong ship with free dice mods and repositioning with Slave-1, and Fenn who's an ace with a jousting ability; the dirty tricks identity used to be wider than that.  Torani, Ketsu, Zuckuss, Dengar, etc generally kinda struggle to deliver on the strong ship or tricky tactics angles.  Guri has been a scum favorite for a long time (along with other vipers), as were tractor shenanigans, but the pushback to both has always been really strong.  And I think that's why Scum can't have an identity for long: anything interesting it does well will have to be nerfed or taken away, because those sorts of tactics lie on or outside the edges of normal play.  People don't necessarily like facing shenanigans, and tricky tactics are also harder to balance with points.  Hence the nerfed tractors and extremely milquetoast illicit selection.

And it's not just in-faction reasons.  The faction used to have lots of tricky tactics like tractor shenanigans (quadrijets, Ketsu, Shadow Caster), and we though they'd survive even after the initial nerfs, but then the Nantex said no.  Illicits used to be strong and fascinating ways to augment ships; now they're just kinds decent with cybernetics, and maybe a jank list with deadman or cloaking device.  Illicits are so mild for a similar reason to tractors: 1) opponents complain about shenanigans and they're hard to balance and avoid NPEs, and 2) sharing with other factions imposes limits to the design space unless scum gets special scum-only toys in that area.

Scum's a fun faction and still my favorite, and it occasionally participates strongly in the meta with a Slave1 Boba + Fenn or Kihraxz+Kimo swarm etc, but there just seems to be something missing and I think that's probably the cause of the lamentations about illicits being for everyone.  It could be that memory of 1.0 when the faction had very identifiable core mechanics through illicits, and early 2.0 when tractoring worked far better and the faction felt far more tricky.

And I think sharing illicits with other factions keeps reminding players about past impositions from other factions like the nerfs for Nantex and Handbrake Han.  Sharing means even more nerfs could be on the horizon.  If someone finds a strong exploit with cybernetics in FO, for example, FFG will likely nerf cybernetics in response.  As I said earlier, other factions keep borrowing Scum's toys and returning them scuffed or broken.  It's happened often enough that each illicit share just has us waiting for the inevitable repercussions.  :D

 

On 8/27/2020 at 7:51 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

Hmmm, is it just me or do Phasma and Pyre look like a pretty neat combo? Lots of stuff likes to be stressed and that's permanent extra defense on your shuttle. Even if it doesn't, that Xi has an amazing dial and should be able to R1 pretty easy or at least not too hard..

Agreed.  I posted some combos like that earlier but they got buried under the flame war.  I partially made that post to try to get the thread back on track, talking about the Xi.  It's back there uhh... somewhere in this long thread.  :)

Pyre keeps the enemy busy, and by the time they've cleared the stress, you might be able to start harassing them or another ship with the phasma-bubble.  The reroll isn't that important, but it doesn't need to be.  Finally phasma will be able to put the pressure on a foe without having to dive points into an entire upsilon.

Phasma isn't the only crew that will be delighted to have an affordable carrier in FO.  IMO this ship is a game changer for the faction.  So much pent up energy can be released now.  A few combos will be relatively jank, but others I think will be effective enough to shift how the faction likes to be played.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Wazat said:

Regarding Scum Illicits:

IMO most of this discussion has been interesting, and I like hearing what others have to say.  As long as svelok keeps his toxicity out of the conversation, at least.  😕  Just a reminder of why I hate sending people to these forums, especially new players who are considering sinking hundreds of dollars and hours into this hobby if it seems like it'll be a good experience.

There are a lot of reasons I don't generally recommend the forums to anyone, and none of them are svelok.

I think it's particularly harmful to new players to come here looking for content about the game and see nothing but salty scum players complaining in every single thread about not getting new illicits, or "muh faction theme", when scum has the most ships of any faction and several of the most oppressive meta presences.

Scum players whining about illicits aren't at the top of the list of annoying forum conversations but I feel like many of you would be better suited still playing first edition at this point. Between the constant defense of the garbage-tier format called extended, the nonstop push for new ships they won't even use, and the constant defense of NPE playstyles, I'm confident saying the removal of the scum faction from the game would be a great improvement. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

Between the constant defense of the garbage-tier format called extended, the nonstop push for new ships they won't even use, and the constant defense of NPE playstyles, I'm confident saying the removal of the scum faction from the game would be a great improvement. 

Citation needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

Between the constant defense of the garbage-tier format called extended, the nonstop push for new ships they won't even use, and the constant defense of NPE playstyles, I'm confident saying the removal of the scum faction from the game would be a great improvement. 

I agree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

I think it's particularly harmful to new players to come here looking for content about the game and see nothing but salty scum players complaining in every single thread about not getting new illicits, or "muh faction theme", when scum has the most ships of any faction and several of the most oppressive meta presences

This is a massive failure of empathy, where you are so incapable of imagining other modes of enjoying a faction than it being powerful or having lots of ships.

"Scum is really strong right now, to the point of basically... breaking X-wing" and "Scum really isn't living up to what neat tricks it is meant to bring to the table" are two entirely compatiable worldviews. It is one I have, I think Boba and Fenn are actively bad for the game, and the logic that scum 'needs' them because they were bad before is a bad argument.

Scum should be good because of 'scummy' things, but instead of buffing scummy things, they just made some truly stupidly overstatted ships for their price and mobility. In this context, it is completely fair for scum to be grumpy that other factions are 'trickier' than them. Same reason Rebels can glance a bit side eyed at the fact that they lack aces because 'rebel teamwork would make them OP' but their teamwork effects are really undertuned and overpriced compared to Force, Networking, or just absurd self passive modding, and how it sorta... makes it weird Imp lists run more named characters than they do (despite The Empire being all about anonymous legions of grunts to the point many of those characters, such as Echo, had to be invented for the game!).

X-Wing is a licensed game, and a huge reason people like it is because they like Star Wars. But, frankly, while a few concepts are 'cute' in how they allude to Star Wars lore (like Arvel's ability, or Baby Annie's) the actual way the game is played makes it kinda a... bad Star Wars game in some ways, and a big part of that the 3 OG factions... don't really make sense right now to the point it is comical.

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

"Scum is really strong right now, to the point of basically... breaking X-wing" and "Scum really isn't living up to what neat tricks it is meant to bring to the table" are two entirely compatiable worldviews.

This.  It's perfectly fine to talk about scum as OP what with Boba's recent reign of terror.  That's a completely separate discussion from "this really isn't what scum should be about, they used to have way cooler stuff than OP boba and beef swarms".

 

BTW with all this focus on a couple of toxic folks, I wanna acknowledge that the people who don't agree with the scum players' view aren't all toxic and I'm glad I got to hear from those.  With the way the toxic few like to talk past our discussion points and pull out strawman crap ("you've (royal you) enraged me in other threads!") rather than talk to us like people, I'd have walked away with a harder-lined attitude without the more even-minded replies.  To those people, thanks!  I don't want to lump you in with the couple of toxic ones.

Again, despite some efforts, some real discussion has been had and I'm glad to get those other opinions.  The past couple pages (of actual discussion) have changed my views a bit and I like when that happens.

 

As for the Xi Shuttle, just to confirm a question I've had... it's Chinese and pronounced "She" like "She-zor" (Xizor) or "She shuttles seashells on Saturdays" right?  "The She Shuttle" is going to be fun to say.  ^_^

I wonder what the hull is on Sensor Buoys.  If it's just one then you could lose 'em early to lucky potshots from ships with no other targets.  I wonder if they'll make FO alpha strikes viable with lock ordnance.  Though you might be looking at fielding an Upsilon with Targeting Synchronizer and Buoys to pull that off on a team of ordnance carriers.  More likely to be useful just for mods or other locking abilities, maybe give some life to Freelance Slicer (which has otherwise proven to be a disappointment).  The free lock on a target in a certain area may open some neat jank tactics that weren't worth noting before.  Still though, Freelance is kinda expensive (both in points and opportunity cost) for what it manages to do in actual practice, so I'm not sure it's going to amount to much.

Freelance_Slicer.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Matanui3 said:

@Wazat "Xi /ˈz/[1] (uppercase Ξ, lowercase ξ; Greek: ξι) is the 14th letter of the Greek alphabet. It is pronounced [ksi] in Modern Greek, and generally /z/ or /s/ in English."

So the Xi shuttle is Greek and Xizor is Chinese... Assuming you're not joking, this is totally fine and I'm not going mad and being taken away by men in white coats.  Everything is fine here, how are you?  :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Wazat said:

So the Xi shuttle is Greek and Xizor is Chinese... Assuming you're not joking, this is totally fine and I'm not going mad and being taken away by men in white coats.  Everything is fine here, how are you?  :D

I mean, given that the Empire uses terms like Delta and Omega, it makes sense.  Xizor is not from the empire or its derivatives, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Matanui3 said:

I mean, given that the Empire uses terms like Delta and Omega, it makes sense.  Xizor is not from the empire or its derivatives, though.

Yea, that makes some sense.  It just means X- names in the same game have no shared behavior, while both also confound the common English pronunciation people would expect if they didn't know any better, which is a slight Z sound ("Zee Shuttle and Prince Zizor").

That inconsistency is kinda neat for faction identity.  But given the confusion it'll create, I'd say people are free to pronounce both outrageously wrong; in fact I may encourage it.  :D

Still not as hard as some Star Wars names though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

But what about a miscellaneous net that doesn't fit other factions?

That's pretty much what the Scum faction has been treated as, and is, IMO, the core issue of why they find themselves struggling for a faction identity. It's hard to build a cohesive faction when your faction is being treated as a dumping ground for anything that can't fit elsewhere. The Empire has its aces, the Rebels have their synergy, the Resistance has its wacky combos, FO likes smaller numbers of high-efficiency ships, Seperatists have their swarms, and Republic is, at long last, coalescing into a combined arms faction. Scum should have been the control & disruption faction, but because they've just had a bunch of random things dumped on them they've turned into this bizarre mish-mash of different things. All of which keeps breaking the control & disruption elements; Palob, 4-L0M, and Tugboats, for example, got hit way back when because their control effects were too oppressive when combined with an Imperial-style super-ace like Boba.

This has been a problem from the word go back in 1.0, and why I agree with the posters who have said that the version of Scum that the players are wanting to play never actually existed. The 1.0 faction wasn't about dirty tricks or its unique upgrade slot. It was barely even a faction; the only real identity it had was being the faction who got blessed with Jumpmasters. And it rarely actually tried to do anything tricksy or controlling; all it did was bury people under more than fully-modified alpha strikes and/or an avalanche of Attani-generated Focus tokens.

it's a shame, really, because when they were first announced, the devs talked about Scum as a faction that would be about disruption and tricks, using them to make up for somewhat lower efficiency and lower initiative compared to the other two factions. But within a couple of waves that had been forgotten entirely -- Scum had been given three PS9s and had been reduced to Alpha-Strike: The Faction.

I kind of agree with @Kyle Ren in that removing the Scum faction as it currently exists from the game would be an overall improvement. But not because I don't want them in the game, but rather because we could use a chance to rebuild the faction from the ground up and actually make it a faction, as opposed to the current semi-random collection of competing playstyles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Wazat said:

As for the Xi Shuttle, just to confirm a question I've had... it's Chinese and pronounced "She" like "She-zor" (Xizor) or "She shuttles seashells on Saturdays" right?  "The She Shuttle" is going to be fun to say.  ^_^

I'd guess it's from Greek, like most of the other shuttles.  In that case, more like Zai or Sai.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi_(letter)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

The Empire has its aces

I don't imagine aces when I think Empire, in universe. They have some weird black ops tech, command ships, and swarms. Those DO shine through, but its weird that emp got to be an aces faciton and rebels didn't, when in universe The Empire devalues the experience of ace pilots for the most part.

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Rebels have their synergy

They do but its not very good. In fact its weird in that many other factions that have things rebels lack because of their synergy often have much stronger and cheaper synergy effects than the rebels.

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

 effects were too oppressive when combined with an Imperial-style super-ace like Boba.

So here is my problem with the idea that Scum couldn't fundementally be balanced because its wide assortment of ships: 

Why not just make Boba... not a super ace? Boba's ability is comically unthematic both for the faction AND for him as a character. I get this is a 1.0 holdover, but why not change the ability like they did for a few other characters? You can't really control that the Firespray is a super rad ship, but you can control how much value is coming from the character abilities. If Boba worked entirely differently, we wouldn't have this issue of oppression.

This is why I am part of the 'Do a Dash tier price increase to current Boba, release new version with reworked ability' club. I don't think the ability would be fun in ANY faction (Its way too much defensive power and that isn't fun in X-wing), but its especially bad as a limiter to the faction. Hike him by 15 and yeet him out of a price that even resembles reasonable so Boba: Mandalorian Renegade or whatever can be printed.

None of the problems are from base ships (Well... fangs are a little problematic and the effects of Concordia Faceoff would ideally be reworked through say... a config), it comes down to a few specific character abilities being overtuned, and the actual 'scum goodness' that is being sought being undertuned. Dropping the points on a lot of scum exclusive upgrades a LOT and increasing the ship costs a tiny bit would be a way (though one that would require a lot of balancing effort and theory I am not gunna make for a forum post) would be a good way to make a lot of the scum faction's value come from 'tricks.'

2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

removing the Scum faction as it currently exists from the game would be an overall improvement

I disagree, but I think more flexibility in the faction system would be useful. One thing that crossed my mind would be something like 40k's system of faction combining, while also splitting the factions up a bit, or making some 'big' factions count as 2 out of 3 faction picks. This would help ensure more content is applicable to more players (it doesn't matter if say... a card you want is an out of faction ship if out of faction ships can be flown with your 'main,' or a wave lacking any ships for your 'main' faction), and let factions that might have more limited ship runs exist.

This concept is so successful in 40k it is hard to overstate: Once they moved from a single universal force org chart to you combining 3 that also could be different factions, it suddenly became really easy to start a collection of a new army with maybe an 80 dollar purchase (Which is VERY cheap for 40k): Those Eldar Guardians and Warlock you got may only be some odd 500 points in a game where you build with 2,000 by default, but they can effectively be ran in any faction in the game at a very minor cost to a meta-resource that didn't directly affect army strength, and that 2-3 box purchase could grow organically. Despite X-wing being a cheaper game overall, faction buy in can be pretty high, and this might help a bit.

I don't think this is super necessary from a mechanical perspective though unless there is suddenly a reason to add 2-3 more factions, like if suddenly Old Republic and Old Sith were a thing. I think it comes down to less 'they can't control what the faction gets' and more 'they chose to focus on how badass Boba is poorly.' Emon and Krassis manage to make the Firespray 'feel scummy' after all, and a 'Scum Super Ace' could make sense if its ability focused on hybridizing value. The reason scum feels weird is solely because some of their character abilities are, frankly, weird and dumb. Like for real Boba famously DIED in close combat why not give him a re-roll if no one is at range 1 or something and make his kit about using fire arc coverage, scum control tools, and bombs to keep people at bay?

That said it allows things like splitting off the 'rebel aligned smugglers' into a smuggler faction, splitting the pirates and the hunters, and making those individual bits have more focus. But part of the interesting thing about the factions is that the good ones aren't one note. Part of why Rebels kinda stink is all they got is beef cuz their characters are all super under-tuned, but Imperial doesn't just have aces, its just that aces are its most 'meta' list: TIE swarm, 'command ship' and 'prototype' lists using stuff like the Gunboat all are super thematic and work too, and the main thing Imp needs really is a little push to run mini-swarm+aces to really go full 'thematic paradise.'

Edited by dezzmont

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

And I'm just sitting here still wondering why the amazingly scummy scum lists without Boba/Fenn keep getting ignored. Must be a US thing because they have been widely played since Euros 2019

Schrodinger's Boba:

He is both always played in the States (well-represented in events) and never played (allegedly according to the forums just because he got slightly pricier). Hot take: Boba will do very well in Dathomir because he is a favorite among continental Europe and even with Crackshot, the power of rerolls, boost-rear-arc, Slave 1, and 2 agility reinforce are very good against bugbois, the new boogeymen.

Edited by Hoarder of Garlic Bread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And I'm just sitting here still wondering why the amazingly scummy scum lists without Boba/Fenn keep getting ignored. Must be a US thing because they have been widely played since Euros 2019

My theory: the scummy scum lists take more 'work' to get results. Extrapolate that over the length of an event, and a player might opt to take the 'safer' Boba/Fenn choice which is just as impactful and much less effort to fly for multiple rounds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, AceDogbert said:

My theory: the scummy scum lists take more 'work' to get results. Extrapolate that over the length of an event, and a player might opt to take the 'safer' Boba/Fenn choice which is just as impactful and much less effort to fly for multiple rounds.

Sure. But they don't get to take the ultrasafe, meta defining, nearly broken option and then complain about lack of other options (e: while also being taken seriously with their complaints. Of course they can, but it would be self-defeating dishonesty)

Edited by GreenDragoon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

But what about a miscellaneous net that doesn't fit other factions?

From a thematic, narrative-based perspective, (rather than one of looking for lists for competitive play), that's exactly what I've long (since Obi-Wan made the phrase famous in 1977, when I was 16 years old and blown out of my socks by the first film) seen "scum and villainy" to be: the cast-offs, dregs, and misfits of society. The stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else is exactly what belongs in Scum, IMNSDHO. As I see it, FFG is making a game that also appeals to people who play it because Star Wars is cool, and I'd think they want mass appeal on the casual game level to be the foundation upon which "upper tier" levels of play rest. Lots of the most interesting character flavor in Star Wars comes from those fringes.

I'm a n00b to this game, but not to business, and not to Star Wars, and Scum is one of the three factions I've settled on that appeal to me—not to compete with Yet Another Boba/Fenn list, but to make "Scum Salad" lists that raise eyebrows on the local scene. If they also win games, then cool. If not, well, it was fun, time to experiment further. 

I get that a sizable portion of this forum's demographic is in it for competitive tourney play, and that's great! Just tossing out a little bit of viewpoint from a different perspective. Without our kids lining up to buy cool ships and play them at the FLGS I submit there won't be an X-Wing game for long. They're not buying powerful list fodder, they're buying what makes their eyes light up. FFG has to make content decisions that meet that criterion.

Enjoy!  😎🍺 

Edited by Spinland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Schrodinger's Boba:

He is both always played in the States (well-represented in events) and never played (allegedly according to the forums just because he got slightly pricier). Hot take: Boba will do very well in Dathomir because he is a favorite among continental Europe and even with Crackshot, the power of rerolls, boost-rear-arc, Slave 1, and 2 agility reinforce are very good against bugbois, the new boogeymen.

I'm not so sure. In Corellia there were 11 lists including Boba, and none of them made the top cut, whereas multiple Nantex swarms did, which makes me think that Boba isn't especially good against them. It may also suggest he's not as strong or as meta-defining as some people seem to think, or at least not in Extended. In this tournament he didn't perform especially well, nor was he the most popular pilot - there were more lists with Vader, Kylo Ren, Fenn Rau and possibly some others.

I guess we'll see over the coming weeks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And I'm just sitting here still wondering why the amazingly scummy scum lists without Boba/Fenn keep getting ignored. Must be a US thing because they have been widely played since Euros 2019

It's not like Scum in the Americas isn't trying. Here is a graph from some really good blog out of the UK on the Corellia Qualifier:

cut_conversion-1.png

45 folks brought Scum, but only 5 made the cut, giving Scum the worst field-to-cut ratio.

26 minutes ago, Ysenhal said:

I'm not so sure. In Corellia there were 11 lists including Boba, and none of them made the top cut, whereas multiple Nantex swarms did, which makes me think that Boba isn't especially good against them.

It's hard to tell if this is causation or just correlation. But Boba does hate Crack Shot, and it does support my anti-Nantex narrative, so I want to agree. But most of the Nantex lists were running a suboptimal build without Crack Shot. Only Bohan and Rodrigo ran the Crack Shot version. The 6 Nantex does however do great against Fenn, who was in 12 lists, even without Crack Shot. So Scum are naturally going to need to migrate away from Boba/Fenn if Nantex become a thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AceDogbert said:

My theory: the scummy scum lists take more 'work' to get results. Extrapolate that over the length of an event, and a player might opt to take the 'safer' Boba/Fenn choice which is just as impactful and much less effort to fly for multiple rounds.

 

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure. But they don't get to take the ultrasafe, meta defining, nearly broken option and then complain about lack of other options (e: while also being taken seriously with their complaints. Of course they can, but it would be self-defeating dishonesty)

Man, @GreenDragoon, most of the time I respect your opinions pretty highly.  But here I fear that you haven't thought through this.  When a *competitive* player complains about being "stuck" flying a single list, shouldn't that *add* weight to the argument?  If they have only *one* option that is safe against all the other factions's many power pieces, doesn't that indicate rather that the whole of the Scum faction *outside of Boba* is underpowered (if we're not going to try to argue that the other factions are overpowered)?  Would a competitive player fly anything else if they could and still get results as reliable as Vader and Kylo and Luke and Sloane so on?  You'll have to poll those competitive Scum players for that answer. 

But us filthy casuals (who I suspect are the most vocal denouncers on this thread, at least), we only rarely attend tournaments - and I, at least, have never taken Boba.  Ever.  And I usually get *thrashed*, often feeling like I never had a chance.  ****, even in casual night games, Rebel Synergy Beef feels utterly insurmountable, let alone a half-decent Force Ace.  But I still don't fly Fett - in part because on a casual level he's boringly good, but mostly because on a casual level he *is* an NPE.  I absolutely support making Fett a 100+ pilot and working on fixing the rest of the faction.  But I fear, as has been pointed out somewhere up above, that Terex has thrown a huge spanner in the works when it comes to balancing future Illicits - unless FFG releases Scum-only Illicits, which seems somehow inelegant. 

And I'd also like to apologize for my part in helping derail this thread.  The Xi looks really solid, and I know that my one local First Order player (who doesn't peruse this forum) is psyched for it.  He's excited by the jank options, and we need some excitement right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/28/2020 at 10:28 AM, Frimmel said:

Think of it this way. You're in an MMA fight and your opponent gets to punch you in the face right after the ref goes over the rules again but before the ref says "Fight." But that would be okay right? Because you know its coming and you can just make a plan for that. Your opponent is going to punch you later. He's already going to make it hard for you to punch him. It's just one punch you have to take before the start of the match. You can take one punch right? Didn't you git gud? 

I can help with this analogy!

Any ability, in any time frame, could be too powerful or deleterious or unfair.

Take your specific analogy to getting a free punch in mma.  You could make a similar analogy about any ability that gives any advantage at any point, by describing it thusly:

Would it be fair in mma to stop the fight, give the opponent a free unrequited punch, then resume combat as normal?

The answer would be of course not.  But in x-wing that's what any ability that gives mods to red dice is, from a certain point of view.  However, it's important to remember that x-wing is decidedly not mma, and it isn't expected to be "fair" in the same way.

In mma, the rules are always the same for each combatant at all times.  In x-wing, each card is basically a way of giving yourself a new rule that doesn't apply to your opponent, or vice versa.  There's no expectation that both players always get the same effects and abilities.  It's assumed to be asymmetric.

And so, if my opponent wants to use, say, 3% of his squad points to give himself a small effect that only happens once at the beginning of the game, it's on him to make sure he gets at least 3% advantage (or, more accurately, more than replacement value for those points spent on pyre), and it's my job to take advantage of his list building mistake and make those points worth much less.

Just like with every upgrade he could possibly bring.

Edited by Ablazoned

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...