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Why do scum players think 

1) Illicits were the only source of the dirty tricks?

2) range1 joust is the only scum option at the moment?

Kimogilas, Seevor, G1A, ion&tractor, and several more are completely viable and have been for over a year.

When was the last time scum used illicits besids contraband and rigged, anyway?

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I don’t know, as a Republic and Resistance player I’m just sitting here drinking tea and thinking about my high initiative Jedi and A-Wings.

Joking aside, it does seem like Scum doesn’t have much of a faction identity. I disagree that illicits were part of that identity (at least in 2nd edition), but there isn’t much there for Scum.  Granted, faction identities shift over time.  In the beginning, Rebels were the “shields and small numbers” faction, while Imperials were the “swarm” faction.  Now it’s harder to really pin down any cohesive, singular faction identity (at least in my opinion):

Rebels are the inter-ship synergy faction I guess?

Imperials are aces and mini swarms?

Resistance’s faction identity seems like “Initiative 5.  Oh, and Poe.”

First Order seems like its getting to be like a blend of 1.0 Rebels and Scum: quality over quantity, with some top shelf aces, but their “synergy” is more about debuffing the enemy, not budging allies.

Separatists are now the swarm faction like 1.0 Imperials.  Really top notch ships and a whole lot of garbage cans you chuck at the enemy.

Republic are...I don’t know.  Fun and I love them, but I never thought about their identity beyond “pew pew space wizards.”

All that being said about the murkiness of faction identities, Scum do seem to be the “yeah, sure, I guess” faction.

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33 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why do scum players think 

...

When was the last time scum used illicits besids contraband and rigged, anyway?

"Scum identity" seems, to some people, to mean "illicit upgrades, card combos, and tractor tokens". None of which defines or is used by even a majority of scum, particularly not their most iconic or successful pilots, nor has ever been scum-exclusive.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

1) Illicits were the only source of the dirty tricks?

They aren't. But they are on a list of tricks.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

2) range1 joust is the only scum option at the moment?

Not joust. Range 1. Name the strongest Scum pieces. I guarantee most if not all of the ones you list will have something to do with being at range 1. Boba, Fenn, Old T, the Fang Chassis in general, Ketsu, Guri, 4-LOM, Fearless. It's more a faction identity than scummy tricks.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Kimogilas, Seevor, G1A, ion&tractor, and several more are completely viable and have been for over a year.

Torani? She can be decent. Definitely not Dalan or the Executioner. Seevor? Yes. But tell me what Overseer Yushyn and Foreman Proach do without looking them up or mixing them up and I'd be very impressed. By G1-A, I assume you mean 4-LOM, who definitely is good. Strong even. But the others? Passable, maybe. Ion and tractor? I doubt it. We'e seen them be good in maybe one list since the tractor nerf, and that has only been since the January update, when Syck's finally hit a reasonable price point.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

"Scum identity" seems, to some people, to mean "illicit upgrades, card combos, and tractor tokens". None of which defines or is used by even a majority of scum, particularly not their most iconic or successful pilots, nor has ever been scum-exclusive.

I know this was meant a criticism of the pro-Scum argument, but it is the pro-Scum argument. Scum want scummy illicits. Scum wants scummy card combos. Scum wants scummy tractor mechanics. None of these things are used by any of the successful pilots, and those scummy tricks aren't scum exclusive.

Edited by 5050Saint

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Torani? She can be decent. Definitely not Dalan or the Executioner

Executioner. Been in plenty very good european lists

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Seevor? Yes. But tell me what Overseer Yushyn and Foreman Proach do without looking them up or mixing them up and I'd be very impressed.

Doesn't matter though. Seevor is amazing and sees play. Definitely dirty scum tricks.

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

By G1-A, I assume you mean 4-LOM, who definitely is good. Strong even. But the others? Passable, maybe.

Zuckuss, too.

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Ion and tractor? I doubt it.

SickScykSix is amazing and lives entirely off tractor and ion. An autoblaster, ion, or tractor scyk is an amazing filler, one of the best in the game, period.

I didn't mention Asajj or Ketsu, and there are several more very good, tricksy scum options. No connection to illicits at all.

 

52 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Not joust. Range 1. Name the strongest Scum pieces. I guarantee most if not all of the ones you list will have something to do with being at range 1. Boba, Fenn, Old T, the Fang Chassis in general, Ketsu, Guri, 4-LOM, Fearless. It's more a faction identity than scummy tricks.

I simply disagree

e: Ok, again: the here quoted part makes the argument that the faction identity is range 1. That's what i disagree with. Simply. The two ships are premises to support that conclusion. I don't think the conclusion is valid, even if this premise is.

Edited by GreenDragoon

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, svelok said:

"Scum identity" seems, to some people, to mean "illicit upgrades

As the outlaw faction it makes some sense. But illicits are basically bad in all factions (when's the last time you say a Cloaking Device or Feedback Array on anything?). It's as upsetting that the slot is that bad as it is that most factions have it now. Sort of a double-insult. Coaxium is the really annoying one, even though it isn't good either.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

card combos

Often more a Rebel thing (the boring "Shields and Synergies" faction) but actually this strategy works much better in Resistance and FO than it does in Scum. Compare Holdo, Leia, K-2S0,etc. to the likes of... what, Vizago? Beckett? Scum has cards, but not really combos in the sense that other factions do.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

and tractor tokens

Tractor isn't really allowed to be good in any faction. Quadjumpers and Shadow-Casters led to a couple nerfs added to tractor, but then somehow the Nantex comes along, and manages to kill all tractor except its own. I'm still on team "Spend tractor to move ship" but it's neither here nor there; control isn't really supposed to be good except in very specific situations. Making it the cornerstone of a list, let alone a faction, was never going to work out.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

None of which defines or is used by even a majority of scum,

Agreed. Because it's bad.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

particularly not their most iconic or successful pilots,

Agreed again, though none of the iconic pilots feel particularly scummy, generally speaking.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

nor has ever been scum-exclusive.

Also agreed, and this is the main reason they're annoyed.

I guess it begs the question; what actually is the Scum and Villainy faction identity? I realize they're complex and get muddled, but it seems very very fuzzy to both Scum and Rebels at the moment.

44 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Zuckuss, too.

Wait what where? Never heard of him.

44 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I didn't mention Asajj or Ketsu, and there are several more very good, tricksy scum options. No connection to illicits at all.

Two empty illicit slots for the price of one. Yay. Incidentally, they also prefer front arc at range 1.

24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That wasn't the part i disagree with. Of course we both know that Boba and Fenn both are designed to be in range1

If not then you don't "simply disagree."

 

TO BE CLEAR:

I agree that Scum has a pretty warped persecution complex. I also think they have a lot of really good lists. They're definitely a competitive faction and almost always have been. All I'm saying is that I've never felt excited to play Scum just because I don't see anything in particular that they bring to the table. If I want crew tricks I go with Resistance. If I want crazy aces I go with FO or Empire. I don't really like dirty tricks but Separatists and FO seem to have more on offer right now than Scum anyway. Scum is fine. They're just not exciting and I can't figure out what they want to be as a faction, other than the dumping ground for stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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First order tricks arent dirty. They are very much of the buff my offense at some cost to myself or others. Completely legit strategy of all out offense. 

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4 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Not going to do much with the early turn stressing, unless there’s some ace who really wants repositioning right away to keep folks guessing (but you as the ace player have to know that it’s coming at the start of the game, and plan your placement and dial accordingly).

If the early turn stress isn't a detriment what is the point of the ability? This game always comes back to action economy and Pyre takes away actions at no cost to his own actions. He makes you change your deployment because he can act on you before the game starts limiting your choice of maneuvers because now you have to "plan accordingly." Your deployment zone shrinks because you can't use any of your re-position actions on turn one. He limits your first turn choices or else you're going to be without actions on turn three.

All but one of the First Order ships have a five straight. Most have access to range 3 missiles and Targeting Synchronizer. And there is that Lt. Dormitz fellow. But it's just a couple of stress tokens what's the big deal with needing to start the game with a couple of one straights right? Just plan accordingly. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

If the early turn stress isn't a detriment what is the point of the ability? This game always comes back to action economy and Pyre takes away actions at no cost to his own actions. He makes you change your deployment because he can act on you before the game starts limiting your choice of maneuvers because now you have to "plan accordingly." Your deployment zone shrinks because you can't use any of your re-position actions on turn one. He limits your first turn choices or else you're going to be without actions on turn three.

All but one of the First Order ships have a five straight. Most have access to range 3 missiles and Targeting Synchronizer. And there is that Lt. Dormitz fellow. But it's just a couple of stress tokens what's the big deal with needing to start the game with a couple of one straights right? Just plan accordingly. 

It's only a significant detriment for a handful of ships - phantoms, dodgy aces/interceptors, and the occasional nut that likes to set up B-wings and U-wings facing the wrong direction.  I feel like most lists aren't going to care that much.  A lot of Rebel, Resistance, Scum, swarm, and clone lists would typically slow roll/1 straight to victory at the start anyway.  Yes, the screwing with someone during setup does fall in the "not cool, dude" category, but as long as you're adaptable it's not that terrible.

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4 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Resistance’s faction identity seems like “Initiative 5.  Oh, and Poe.”

It really is just "We have A-Wings.  And some other things, I guess."

 

4 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Republic are...I don’t know.  Fun and I love them, but I never thought about their identity beyond “pew pew space wizards.”

It's basically Force, the faction.  Even if it's just one ship, it's good enough to warp the entire perception of the faction.


Honestly, "faction identity" is kind of a wash, given that FFG is at least somewhat beholden to what ships did in canon, and aren't free to make rules on what faction gets what kind of ship.  For example, CIS is clearly meant to be the swarm faction, but they also had to have a large-base ship with stealth mechanics, as well as expensive force users.  All because the Sith Infiltrator existed in George Lucas's Star Wars.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

For example, CIS is clearly meant to be the swarm faction

"Swarm" is an archetype. 8x something is available to all factions except Resistance at the moment. Sure CIS swarms are better but I wouldn't say it's their only identity.

I'd say they're more like the "Get more mileage out of calculates" faction, which holds up and probably will for some time. Exclusive access to Networked and Relays pretty much ensures this.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

so what I've learned is that scum players are mad about a version of scum that exists only in their minds

I just want to ask you how you would describe what Scum is as a faction. Because I can't really think of anything.

Also pretty sure the devs explicitly stated that when they were trying to differentiate the factions at the outset of 2.0 they called scum the "dirty tricks" faction. Maybe time has changed that or maybe they just don't care about maintaining distinction anymore, I don't know. I just can't think of what makes them unique and that might be why I rarely play them.

Edited by ClassicalMoser

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1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

If the early turn stress isn't a detriment what is the point of the ability? This game always comes back to action economy and Pyre takes away actions at no cost to his own actions. He makes you change your deployment because he can act on you before the game starts limiting your choice of maneuvers because now you have to "plan accordingly." Your deployment zone shrinks because you can't use any of your re-position actions on turn one. He limits your first turn choices or else you're going to be without actions on turn three.

You fail to realize that everything an opponent does limits your choice of deployment and/or maneuvers.  Sure, most of the time you aren't assigning tokens to the opponent's ships, but you'd be a fool to take the exact same maneuvers no matter which side of the board your opponent sets up on.  Not to mention how your play changes depending on if you're facing off against a jousting block, two or more Proton Torps, or something like triple aces.  Pyre merely limits you in a different, more readily apparent way.

Every upgrade is made to give you a strategic or tactical advantage in some way.  Even not taking upgrades, sometimes.  Please don't complain that your opponent's upgrade is giving them a strategic or tactical advantage against you.  Especially before even knowing how much it costs them to take in the first place.

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8 minutes ago, Matanui3 said:

It really is just "We have A-Wings.  And some other things, I guess."

As someone who unabashedly loves playing 5 A-Wing lists, I have to say yep. This is probably more accurate.

And don’t forget Republic are due for another force using ship this year, one that actually looks like it will be more interesting to fly.

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4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'd say they're more like the "Get more mileage out of calculates" faction, which holds up and probably will for some time.

You may have a point, but that doesn't really change mine.  Because they tacked the relay slot on and one pilot (of four) uses calculates, the Sith Infiltrator fits this a little more - but then we have the Firespray coming out, which is even further removed from droids than the Infiltrator as far as I can tell.

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Posted (edited)

I would classify CIS as the 'We have strange movement options' faction with a dash of 'We deal mostly with low initiative calculating ships...with the occasional meatbags.' All droid ships in that faction are initiative 3 or lower with one Hyena being the exception (404) and presumably the Tri-Fighter when that comes out.

Edited by Ebak

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10 minutes ago, Ebak said:

I would classify CIS as the 'We have strange movement options' faction with a dash of 'We deal mostly with low initiative calculating ships...with the occasional meatbags.' All droid ships in that faction are initiative 3 or lower with one Hyena being the exception (404) and presumably the Tri-Fighter when that comes out.

Not "presumably," we've actually seen a 2-dot initiative 5 in the Tri-Fighter spread.

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So, fun thing to notice with Agent Terex, is this line from the Upgrade Cards section of the Rules Reference:

A ship cannot equip more than one copy of the same card.

So, Terex can bring 3 illicit upgrades, but they have to be three different ones. Can't bring three copies of Contraband Cybernetics, I guess.

Also, am I misinterpreting things, or does the "End of Game" text mean that if Terex brings 3 illicits and distributes them, and then he's destroyed while the TIEs aren't, the other player still gets credit for the points of those illicits?

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5 hours ago, Frimmel said:

If the early turn stress isn't a detriment what is the point of the ability? This game always comes back to action economy and Pyre takes away actions at no cost to his own actions. He makes you change your deployment because he can act on you before the game starts limiting your choice of maneuvers because now you have to "plan accordingly." Your deployment zone shrinks because you can't use any of your re-position actions on turn one. He limits your first turn choices or else you're going to be without actions on turn three.

All but one of the First Order ships have a five straight. Most have access to range 3 missiles and Targeting Synchronizer. And there is that Lt. Dormitz fellow. But it's just a couple of stress tokens what's the big deal with needing to start the game with a couple of one straights right? Just plan accordingly. 

The early turn stress is a detriment, just far less of one than you are making it out to be. It's nothing that you as the opponent can't plan around and compensate for. In fact, the more I think about him, the more I feel that Pyre's ultimate purpose isn't to catch the other guy out while he's stressed and has no actions (unless the opponent is an idiot and walks into it, I guess), but to guarantee that engagement won't happen for a couple of turns, allowing the FO player time to prepare.

As @Matanui3 said above, everything your opponent does limits your options in some way. You never just get to do whatever you like without thinking about what your opponent can do. So yes, you do just have to plan accordingly. Maybe don't deploy directly across from the enemy to buy yourself time to clear the stress, or if you deploy first, bunch your formation together so any attempt by your opponent to punish the guy clearing stress tokens involves parking in front of you entire list. Simples.

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1 hour ago, Freeptop said:

Also, am I misinterpreting things, or does the "End of Game" text mean that if Terex brings 3 illicits and distributes them, and then he's destroyed while the TIEs aren't, the other player still gets credit for the points of those illicits?

Yes, it does mean that.

Hmmm, is it just me or do Phasma and Pyre look like a pretty neat combo? Lots of stuff likes to be stressed and that's permanent extra defense on your shuttle. Even if it doesn't, that Xi has an amazing dial and should be able to R1 pretty easy or at least not too hard..

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To me, Scum and Villaney is the faction of highly payed Bounty Hunters that employ all kinds of dirty tricks to track down and capture their prey. 

It has been mentioned earlier, but if FFG were to introduce 3-4:

Unique and Scum and Villaney only illicits that grants a really good gameplay ability or simply some unique illicits that possibly synergize really well with some of the unique pilot abilities of the named pilots

this would go a long way to help reestablish their faction-identity. 

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