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BrotherCaptainRJ

Thought on the BARC Speeder

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If you want to be at all competitive you will just not use them. Once AT-RTs and ARCs are out there will be no reason to use them whatsoever. Even when the faction was first released, it was accepted that they were pretty terrible and people used them just to fill out a list to 800 points.

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Posted (edited)

Best way to use them is to not use them.  They're bad, at least in the GAR's line up.  They don't play well with the rest of the army, and no command cards out currently really work well with them.  At best, they're a decent flanker unit, harrying the edges of the battle, but even there they have a tendency to fall flat with mediocre attacks and a tendency to die quickly. 

 

EDIT: To illustrate how bad they are, or at least how bad I think they are, I have three (ended up with 3 core sets).  I've got one painted, the other two primed.  They're the only Legion minis I don't have painted, and that's entirely because I simply can't work up the interest to paint something that will likely never see the table because it is so useless. 

Edited by Alpha17

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They'll probably get more useful once GAR gets a cheap commander and the 1 pip that has some synergy with them. Right now GAR is all about clone trooper synergy so theres really no place for vehicles. The BARC actually has decent damage potential and doesn't attrition like other speeders, it is just a bit too expensive right now. Basically wait for a points update and their cheap commander and then revisit them when looking too add them into lists.

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Yeah no kidding, 93 points for 5 HP w/ Cover 1, red saves, and RBBBWWW with surge hit vs 85 points for 6 HP with armor, scout 1, BBBBBB with surge hit... kind of a no brainer. The AT-RT even has a backup impact weapon if it needs it.

Speeders in general are not tough enough to compensate for the fact that their compulsory move will often put them in uncomfortable positions.

Flanking is just not good enough in that game vs the abundance of Sharpshooters.

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Like many have said;

-They appear to have been balanced against the original price of the Imperial speeder bikes and Rebel AT-RT... both of which got significant discounts around the time of the BARC's release.

-The abundance of sharpshooter really hurts cover. This might be less of a problem if strike teams stopped existing, but with ARCs and Commando Droids coming out, I don't see that happening.

-They don't share tokens with clones

-Like the imperial speeder bike, they're order hungry and want to be run in packs, and that just doesn't fit in most GAR lists.

Some of these problems can be fixed with point changes. But they will probably always be a square peg trying to fit into a faction with a bunch of round holes.

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57 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:

Yeah no kidding, 93 points for 5 HP w/ Cover 1, red saves, and RBBBWWW with surge hit vs 85 points for 6 HP with armor, scout 1, BBBBBB with surge hit... kind of a no brainer. The AT-RT even has a backup impact weapon if it needs it.

AT-RT only get five black dice, not six with the rotary cannon, but your point is valid. The AT-RT is going to be a better platform due to its much better survivability. The Barc lacks a true role in the army. 

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One thing that BARCs can do is line up a fire support and give the attack pool surge: hit. But that's situational, a once maybe twice a game play, and often put's the BARC in a compromised position.

Is this enough to outweigh the bad? No. Perhaps if we see a point reduction they become more viable.

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2 minutes ago, Crawfskeezen said:

One thing that BARCs can do is line up a fire support and give the attack pool surge: hit. But that's situational, a once maybe twice a game play, and often put's the BARC in a compromised position.

Is this enough to outweigh the bad? No. Perhaps if we see a point reduction they become more viable.

A stock AT-RT will cost 10 points less than a Barc, and it will add Crit 1 to the pool in addition to surge to hit.

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2 hours ago, BrotherCaptainRJ said:

Ok cool. Ill probable make a display with mine. Seeing as they are turds.

 

I mean, you may find that you enjoy playing it? you may find that in friendly games where everyone isn't running optimized lists it does fine? You may find that as the only fast option available to Clones it has some value? 

If you like the unit I'd suggest trying it out a few times. Very often units that everyone says are awful (and I'm not arguing that it isn't) still perform fairly well and ca be a lot of fun to use.

 

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10 hours ago, BrotherCaptainRJ said:

Ok cool. Ill probable make a display with mine. Seeing as they are turds.

I will also add that you should be aware of your meta. There are times where BARCS can be very beneficial to a clone list. A coordinate chain is very vulnerable to fast flankers with jammers. One of the toughest games I've ever played my opponent brought a single BARC with only a copy of comms jammer on it. He gave it an order round 2, delayed it to the last activation, and triple moved to drop it at range 1 of 4 B1 units. Devastated my round 3, nothing could get the coordinate order chain. Took that side of the board 2 turns of shooting to sink it, by then it was too late. 

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Just now, Darth Sanguis said:

I will also add that you should be aware of your meta. There are times where BARCS can be very beneficial to a clone list. A coordinate chain is very vulnerable to fast flankers with jammers. One of the toughest games I've ever played my opponent brought a single BARC with only a copy of comms jammer on it. He gave it an order round 2, delayed it to the last activation, and triple moved to drop it at range 1 of 4 B1 units. Devastated my round 3, nothing could get the coordinate order chain. Took that side of the board 2 turns of shooting to sink it, by then it was too late. 

 

8 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I mean, you may find that you enjoy playing it? you may find that in friendly games where everyone isn't running optimized lists it does fine? You may find that as the only fast option available to Clones it has some value? 

If you like the unit I'd suggest trying it out a few times. Very often units that everyone says are awful (and I'm not arguing that it isn't) still perform fairly well and ca be a lot of fun to use.

 

I have to second (or I guess third) these sentiments. I enjoy running the BARC without the sidecar as a cheap harasser. While not the most efficient use of points, my local meta is rather casual so it works well.

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On 8/26/2020 at 2:20 AM, Jake the Hutt said:

I mean, you may find that you enjoy playing it? you may find that in friendly games where everyone isn't running optimized lists it does fine? You may find that as the only fast option available to Clones it has some value? 

If you like the unit I'd suggest trying it out a few times. Very often units that everyone says are awful (and I'm not arguing that it isn't) still perform fairly well and ca be a lot of fun to use.

 

I will. I have yet to build mine yet. Personally the model looks good so I will try to run it when I can.

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One way to make the BARC relevant is to create an upgrade card for it that takes the crew slot and allows for a passenger.

Why not? The rebel speeder only has 2 seats and can transport a single mini. Also FFG has shown, that they’re open to upgrade card packs.

Of course they would still need to reduce the base price of the BARC by a minimum of 10 points, but the passenger upgrade could cost points too (maybe 5-10?).

Just a thought.

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I really tried to like them, especially when the faction first launched, but mine always got blown off the board immediately. In an army where everything is expensive, I found it more economical to just take another corps squad. I think they could be a decent flanking unit, but I don't see why you would take them over an Arc strike team, full squad, or the AT-RT when they come out here shortly. If you're taking Obi-wan as a commander you might a well forget it and bring a full retinue of clones- better synergy with him, and they can capture objectives.

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On 8/29/2020 at 1:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

One way to make the BARC relevant is to create an upgrade card for it that takes the crew slot and allows for a passenger.

Why not? The rebel speeder only has 2 seats and can transport a single mini. Also FFG has shown, that they’re open to upgrade card packs.

Of course they would still need to reduce the base price of the BARC by a minimum of 10 points, but the passenger upgrade could cost points too (maybe 5-10?).

Just a thought.

The last thing the BARC needs is a buff. Its already better than most of the other speeders in the game. The reason the BARC doesn't get used isnt because its bad, its because GAR's corps units are way too good. Theres no reason to take a BARC when you can just take more clone troopers with their broken token sharing shenanigans.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the faction when they can just spam corps units and have a top level competitive army. GAR is the most uninspired and boring faction to play against for that exact reason.

44 minutes ago, Alpharaider47 said:

I really tried to like them, especially when the faction first launched, but mine always got blown off the board immediately. In an army where everything is expensive, I found it more economical to just take another corps squad. I think they could be a decent flanking unit, but I don't see why you would take them over an Arc strike team, full squad, or the AT-RT when they come out here shortly. If you're taking Obi-wan as a commander you might a well forget it and bring a full retinue of clones- better synergy with him, and they can capture objectives.

Clones arnt that expensive though. They can run top level competitive lists with 10-11 activations. Which other factions struggle to do. If anything clones need to be more expensive so they cant easily get to 10-11 activations.

Again the reason BARCs arnt getting used is because the corps units and arc troopers are way too good. What clones need to get the BARC on the table is a vehicle oriented commander. They need a commander that works well with vehicles and doesnt work as well with corps units to discourage corps unit spam. And the corps units and strike teams need to be nerfed so spamming corps units and strike teams isnt always the best way to play GAR.

 

 

Edited by Khobai

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To be fair, the other faction don't have a problem with building competitive 10-11 activation lists.

The problem is GAR was supposed to be a "low quantity, high quality" faction, and so far the "low quantity" part doesn't really work.

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7 hours ago, Khobai said:

The last thing the BARC needs is a buff. Its already better than most of the other speeders in the game. The reason the BARC doesn't get used isnt because its bad, its because GAR's corps units are way too good. Theres no reason to take a BARC when you can just take more clone troopers with their broken token sharing shenanigans.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the faction when they can just spam corps units and have a top level competitive army. GAR is the most uninspired and boring faction to play against for that exact reason.

Clones arnt that expensive though. They can run top level competitive lists with 10-11 activations. Which other factions struggle to do. If anything clones need to be more expensive so they cant easily get to 10-11 activations.

Again the reason BARCs arnt getting used is because the corps units and arc troopers are way too good. What clones need to get the BARC on the table is a vehicle oriented commander. They need a commander that works well with vehicles and doesnt work as well with corps units to discourage corps unit spam. And the corps units and strike teams need to be nerfed so spamming corps units and strike teams isnt always the best way to play GAR.

 

 

An interesting, if polarized position, but I don’t think you’re alone. Personally I think they’re not as powerful as everyone thinks.

There was an online tournament on TTS (the Invader League) and it allowed ARCs (ahead of release). The Republic ended up with 5 of the top 8 positions and I was really starting to thinking the same as you, that maybe clones were OP, but then I started to look at individual players. Many of the top players were not playing their normal faction (some used to play Imperial and others Rebels) and they were now playing Republic instead. The same players that normally win, won, but instead of those players representing Rebels or Imperials, they now only represented Republic. It’s like stacking the deck and making things very one sided. So in other words, the highest level players still took their top spots, but under a new flag, and there seems little difference between the other players placements regardless of factions. If there were such a large imbalance there should be a lot of nobodies a lot higher in the rankings. As for why the top players switched to clones, if you listen to after game interviews, most said they enjoy how the clones play.
 

But I think I know what you’re talking about playing clones not being fun. I’m guessing you either lose to them a lot or find them challenging to play. Been there, did that, and it sucked (couldn’t win with Rebels to save my life). If you want, I could tell you what tactics higher level players have employed against me and my clones. You can’t approach clones as you would other factions and just setup a gun line. Clones may require the average player to up their strategies, but once you get the hang of it, you might like the challenge. If you want to create a possible strategy list, we could start a new post. I’m sure there are others that feel the same and still others that have more strategies and tactics that they use against clones and might share. Let me know.

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On 8/31/2020 at 10:46 PM, Khobai said:

The last thing the BARC needs is a buff. Its already better than most of the other speeders in the game. The reason the BARC doesn't get used isnt because its bad, its because GAR's corps units are way too good. Theres no reason to take a BARC when you can just take more clone troopers with their broken token sharing shenanigans.

There is something fundamentally wrong with the faction when they can just spam corps units and have a top level competitive army. GAR is the most uninspired and boring faction to play against for that exact reason.

Clones arnt that expensive though. They can run top level competitive lists with 10-11 activations. Which other factions struggle to do. If anything clones need to be more expensive so they cant easily get to 10-11 activations.

Again the reason BARCs arnt getting used is because the corps units and arc troopers are way too good. What clones need to get the BARC on the table is a vehicle oriented commander. They need a commander that works well with vehicles and doesnt work as well with corps units to discourage corps unit spam. And the corps units and strike teams need to be nerfed so spamming corps units and strike teams isnt always the best way to play GAR.

 

 

The usual Clone panic from you.

What you're saying is just untrue. Any Clone Player that started with the 2-player box put BARCs on the table then decided they were terrible. That was before the great Clone OP shouts, before Phase 2s. The BARC have been in the box since the very beginning.

And this is not an issue of "Clone troopers vs vehicles", this is a question of bad stats on a bad platform. They are worse AND more expensive than speeder bikes, who are still never used post point reduction.

The AT-RT will work much better because it's better than the BARC in every way.

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What im saying is completely true.

How are its stats bad? It has better survivability than speeder bikes because of its red saving throw. it does more damage than speeder bikes and its damage doesnt rapidly degrade like the speeders bikes as soon as one of them dies.

Its stats are better than the speeder bikes' in every way. The problem is not its stats. Its stats are absolutely fine. The problem is that its crew cards are a little overcosted in an army full of other units that are broken and undercosted. So lower the crew card cost a few points, fix the broken token sharing shennigans so cloneball isnt the single best way to play clones, add a new commander that incentivizes a non-cloneball playstyle, and the barc speeder will be perfectly fine.

And its not clone panic. Clones have already proven that theyre overpowered compared to other factions. They do nearly everything better than other factions. So of course one should be concerned about buffing any unit of theirs without nerfing the more problematic units first.

Again there is something fundamentally wrong with a faction that can build a top tier tournament list by only taking corps units. Their corps units are way too strong and need to be knocked down a peg. That is why clones have no interest in using anything else because everything else is comparatively worse than their overpowered corps units. They have no reason to take anything else so they dont. And that will remain true until the problem is fixed.

As for the AT-RT being better than the barc speeder, of course its better, it has full armor which makes absolutely no sense on a vehicle where the driver is completely exposed. Both the rebel and clone AT-RT should have armor 2 not straight up armor. the poor barc speeder never had a chance against something in the same category with full armor. The AT-RT having full armor is just a little too good IMO because no other vehicle under 140 points gets full armor. And again the barc speeder shouldnt get stat buffs when its stats are already stronger than what other factions get just because of poor internal balance within its own faction. Again the only thing the barc speeder should get is a slight cost reduction on the crew cards. And then add a commander that does something great for the barc speeders to try and incentivize them in at least one list.

Edited by Khobai

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