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Lemmiwinks86

Rules refference updated

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26 minutes ago, crow servo said:

Thanks.

The only real big change I saw was the change to shields.  They now are spent the cancel hits and crits during the cover/ dodge step.

I like this change because it makes it simpler and it lines up with how we use Dodges and Cover already, but does it actually change anything as to how it's played?

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Lethal X:
"While a unit performs an attack with a weapon that has the lethal x keyword, it can spend up to x aim tokens during the Modify Defense Dice step. If it does, the attack pool gains pierce 1 for each aim token spent."

Modify Defence Dice happens after the defender rolls dice, so Lethal bypasses Impervious and on top of that, the attacker decides to activate Lethal when he sees the defender dice roll - which means that if the defender rolls poorly, ARC troopers can keep their aim for sharing with other clones.
Is this an oversight, or an intentional buff to an already extremely powerful unit?

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Maybe that was the intent all along and that very powerful unit is not released yet so we didn't know, even though it's been used in tournaments online.

Calling it a "buff" to ARCs specifically when we didn't quite know how Lethal worked is... inaccurate. It's also present on new models available for all 4 factions.

It's also something of a gamble since you don't choose to spend the token for Lethal when you see your own dice; are you taking that 1 hit and turning it to pierce, or are you re-rolling to get more hits?

It's different, that's for sure.

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4 minutes ago, costi said:

Lethal X:
"While a unit performs an attack with a weapon that has the lethal x keyword, it can spend up to x aim tokens during the Modify Defense Dice step. If it does, the attack pool gains pierce 1 for each aim token spent."

Modify Defence Dice happens after the defender rolls dice, so Lethal bypasses Impervious and on top of that, the attacker decides to activate Lethal when he sees the defender dice roll - which means that if the defender rolls poorly, ARC troopers can keep their aim for sharing with other clones.
Is this an oversight, or an intentional buff to an already extremely powerful unit?

I would guess it's an oversight. They have a habit of telling us what in which step an effect will happen (which is good) but then getting the step wrong. Uncanny Luck didn't technically work at all until this update since they listed the wrong step.

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1 minute ago, OneLastMidnight said:

It's also something of a gamble since you don't choose to spend the token for Lethal when you see your own dice; are you taking that 1 hit and turning it to pierce, or are you re-rolling to get more hits?

You should always take the guaranteed hit over a possible 0-2 hits, especially if you're a Clone who can just share the token if you don't end up using it.

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Bane Tokens are clarified to get flipped on deploying, moving, or placing within range 1.

Two types of Coordinate is either/or, not both (e.g. Hask in a Shoretrooper unit)

Demoralize X finally has an entry

Units can be deployed inside Transports

Multiple sources of Repair or Treat in a unit do not stack.  They are treated as separate actions, and can all be used in the same activation (even if they are from the same upgrade card, ie. Arc Welder).

Transfer is defined (see the recent Rules subforum post)

Notably, no update to Leader/Unit Leader despite a rumor that it was going to be clarified that units could only have 1 upgrade with Leader.

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1 minute ago, Lochlan said:

Units can be deployed inside Transports

They always could, it's just clarifying that if the Transport is outside of the deployment zone you can still deploy the unit therein.

1 minute ago, Lochlan said:

Notably, no update to Leader/Unit Leader despite a rumor that it was going to be clarified that units could only have 1 upgrade with Leader.

Yes, it was clarified that only one upgrade with the keyword can be added. It's right there under Leader (Upgrade Keyword).

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11 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

I would guess it's an oversight. They have a habit of telling us what in which step an effect will happen (which is good) but then getting the step wrong. Uncanny Luck didn't technically work at all until this update since they listed the wrong step.

It could go either way.

I would totally believe that they wrote "Modify Defense Dice" instead of "Modify Attack Dice" and since they have very, very little QA for those PDFs (as any X-Wing player will tell you), it just went through.

I was convincing myself that it was a mistake since they wrote that you don't get the effect of a regular aim token when you spend it for Lethal, but that would be equally relevant if it were spent during the Modify Defense Dice step, so who knows.

I gotta say I kinda like it as is. It's something unique that counters Impervious (vs High Velocity that counters Dodge).

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10 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:

Maybe that was the intent all along and that very powerful unit is not released yet so we didn't know, even though it's been used in tournaments online.

Calling it a "buff" to ARCs specifically when we didn't quite know how Lethal worked is... inaccurate. It's also present on new models available for all 4 factions.

It's also something of a gamble since you don't choose to spend the token for Lethal when you see your own dice; are you taking that 1 hit and turning it to pierce, or are you re-rolling to get more hits?

It's different, that's for sure.

It's a gamble only for 3 out of 4 factions, the fourth one can simply wait and see and share the unused token with another unit. Combine it with the fact that ARC Troopers are the only strike team in the game that:
1. has guaranteed access to an aim token thanks to tactical 1 (even if they need to move, they still get an aim)
2. can token share
3. has critical 1
and I believe you can see where the problem lies? 

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5 minutes ago, costi said:

It's a gamble only for 3 out of 4 factions, the fourth one can simply wait and see and share the unused token with another unit. Combine it with the fact that ARC Troopers are the only strike team in the game that:
1. has guaranteed access to an aim token thanks to tactical 1 (even if they need to move, they still get an aim)
2. can token share
3. has critical 1
and I believe you can see where the problem lies? 

Pierce doesn't do much good when it can be dodged thanks to the weapon not having high velocity. It is a good unit with a good weapon to be sure, but they aren't mowing down force users with it.

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3 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Pierce doesn't do much good when it can be dodged thanks to the weapon not having high velocity. It is a good unit with a good weapon to be sure, but they aren't mowing down force users with it.

Crits don't care about Dodge or cover. And if they do dodge it, you still have an aim token for the next strike team.

If this is how Lethal is supposed to work, then ARC trooper strike teams are the TLT of Legion (TLT was the card that IMO started the power creep in X-Wing 1.0 and ultimately led to 2nd edition because the first one was beyond fixing).

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1 hour ago, costi said:

Crits don't care about Dodge or cover. And if they do dodge it, you still have an aim token for the next strike team.

If this is how Lethal is supposed to work, then ARC trooper strike teams are the TLT of Legion (TLT was the card that IMO started the power creep in X-Wing 1.0 and ultimately led to 2nd edition because the first one was beyond fixing).

What led to 2.0 in X-Wing is that fix cards were getting ridiculous and there was a point where you could eliminate dice variance to a degree where every shot had a "sure thing" amount of hits. Then a powerful turret caused flying well to become completely irrelevant (since turrets can fire 360).

This was all caused by X-Wing having absolutely no ways to modify current content outside of printing "fix cards" (like Flight Assist Astromech), which quickly became incredibly unmanageable.

They fixed all that with X-Wing 2.0, then promptly forgot about it when they created Legion despite the timelines overlapping.

At least they're willing to change Legion point costs (despite having no real vehicle to deliver those changes properly to the public ie. an official builder but that's another story.

 

This is not that. At all. Even if Lethal works that way, which is debatable at this point, there's no way that ARC Strike Teams come even close to upending the game balance of Legion the way TLT, K-Wings, and Harpoon Missiles did.

It might be overtuned, but it's a quick and easy fix for the devs if it's found to be overpowered, either to the Lethal rule, or to how token sharing works.

So let's maybe tone down the doomsaying?

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Dalae said:

They buffed Beam X range? Why? Because, you know, that tank and that faction needed even more love... 

And debuffed Beam as  now since all the target's are declared at the same time, which means you can't get two suppression on the unit that was also targeted with the main gun. Which is also a slight buff since it prevents removed models from changing the range to other potential target units.

 

Still no fix to Treat/Repair I see for Counterparts though.

Edit: Or for the new multi-wound attachments... I just realized that if you remove a two health model from a unit that normally only has one health, then restore it with Treat/Repair, you place "one less wound token on the model than the health value of the unit" so you can use Treat 1 to restore 2 wounds to those units.... That probably isn't intentional.

Edited by Caimheul1313

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1 hour ago, OneLastMidnight said:

What led to 2.0 in X-Wing is that fix cards were getting ridiculous and there was a point where you could eliminate dice variance to a degree where every shot had a "sure thing" amount of hits. Then a powerful turret caused flying well to become completely irrelevant (since turrets can fire 360).

This was all caused by X-Wing having absolutely no ways to modify current content outside of printing "fix cards" (like Flight Assist Astromech), which quickly became incredibly unmanageable.

They fixed all that with X-Wing 2.0, then promptly forgot about it when they created Legion despite the timelines overlapping.

At least they're willing to change Legion point costs (despite having no real vehicle to deliver those changes properly to the public ie. an official builder but that's another story.

 

This is not that. At all. Even if Lethal works that way, which is debatable at this point, there's no way that ARC Strike Teams come even close to upending the game balance of Legion the way TLT, K-Wings, and Harpoon Missiles did.

It might be overtuned, but it's a quick and easy fix for the devs if it's found to be overpowered, either to the Lethal rule, or to how token sharing works.

So let's maybe tone down the doomsaying?

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, it is the first symptom (if it doesn't get fixed, of course).

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lochlan said:

It could always beam to units beyond the maximum range of the weapon.

yes but they shouldve ruled that it cant do that

because its outside the max range of the weapon

allowing the tank to continue to do that nonsense is just as bad

Quote

And debuffed Beam as  now since all the target's are declared at the same time, which means you can't get two suppression on the unit that was also targeted with the main gun. Which is also a slight buff since it prevents removed models from changing the range to other potential target units

it still shouldnt be able to target things outside its max range. that makes no sense.

im upset they didnt fix that.

im also upset the game still has major LoS and cover issues that werent fixed either. like how airspeeders cant see over intervening cover thats on the ground. thats so dumb.

Edited by Khobai

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lochlan said:

Transfer is defined (see the recent Rules subforum post)

While the initial question is answered, they still have the rule wrong though and nobody should ever follow it to the letter (and they won't). Here's what they wrote: 

"When a game effect transfers a token from one unit to another unit, that token is physically moved from unit to unit.

• The original unit loses the token and the other unit gains the token.

• When transferring suppression tokens, units with a courage value of "–" cannot be selected as targets for the transfer."

 

A transfer is just a "remove" (although they call it a "lose" in this instance because they just can't be bothered to be consistent) for one unit and a "gain" for the other. It is NOT a physical transfer of that token from one unit to the other, so just ignore that. Alex Davy acknowledged in his emails to me that one unit removes the suppression token and returns it to their supply, and their opponent takes a token from their supply and the target unit gains it. The idea is that "transfer" would be the shorthand for that process.

I'm genuinely shocked to see a rule that says exactly the opposite 1 day later. It speaks to how nobody is really on the same page when it comes to rules writing. 

If, at the end of the "transfer" the token count is correct on both the transferer and transferee, then the rule has been satisfied. Where each molecularly unique suppression token ends up is not the least bit relevant, despite what this says.

Edited by Sekac

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Posted (edited)

Well that was something? I mean not sure what I was expecting, but they really did not do much of anything (not even an article). I mean FFG mentioned they were doing this several times, but I guess they never hyped it up or tried to sell it as anything big? So they can get a pass.

Guess we now turn to points to see what happens next. There FFG did try to hype it up and say that the point changes would shift the meta.

Edited by RyantheFett

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