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So is the Han/Rex issue: Han is too expensive or Rex is too cheap? Or maybe a little of both?

I’d hesitate to drop Han all the way down to 90 because then he’s competing for that commander slot with Leia. Granted, he’s a much more offensive based leader so maybe that’s not all bad and as a Rebel player I’d actually consider running them both with Chewie if I’m now getting 30 points to expand my list.

But part of me thinks Rex being too cheap is the bigger issue.

 

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32 minutes ago, FSD said:

So is the Han/Rex issue: Han is too expensive or Rex is too cheap? Or maybe a little of both?

I’d hesitate to drop Han all the way down to 90 because then he’s competing for that commander slot with Leia. Granted, he’s a much more offensive based leader so maybe that’s not all bad and as a Rebel player I’d actually consider running them both with Chewie if I’m now getting 30 points to expand my list.

But part of me thinks Rex being too cheap is the bigger issue.

 

They should probably both be 100.
If Leia and Han were the same cost, I would still use Leia over Han. She is so good.

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I'm generally more in favor of improving under preforming units than nerfing over preforming units. That being said there are a few exceptions.

Rebels: I'd like to see Han, fleets, wookies, airspeeder, and landspeeder get some more love. I'd like to see strike teams nerfed, and maby a small points increase to tauntauns.

Imperials: I'd like to see vader, dewback, and at-st weapons upgrades get something (at least some small points decrease). I'd also like to see strike teams nerfed.

Republic: barc's need some love, arc trooper strike teams are definitely on the nerf list, possibly full arc trooper units as well, but I'm not sure about them yet.

CIS: droidekas need a points drop for sure, the only thing I'd think about nerfing for them right now is strike teams.

Have I mentioned how much I dislike strike teams...

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Things to nerf:

Clone token sharing

Taun taun

Clone token sharing (again)

Taun taun (again) 

And once again clone token sharing (you know what? Just take out this stupid mechanics: it clearly goes agsinstvthe rules)

Oh and rex of course.

Things to be improved or that need their point cost downed:

Dewback

Vader commander 

Droidekas

Grievious

B2s

 

All other things are good as they are. Only need some skill to be used.

Now of course every clone player out there says that token sharing is not overpowered.

But it is. Especially when it lets them bypass the regular stand by rules, making a single phase 2 unit way more effective than it should be... no wonder phase 2 are sold out.

Noone would use them if they could not cheat by sharing tokens with chesper units. Units thatvare in the list just to share tokens to phase 2s. 

But that came from the same minds that gave us taun tauns: a unit that at the cost of  2 actions can actually make 7 actions (free pivot, move, free dodge, free pivot, move, free dodge, free attack.) Plus Ram (which is the stupidest cheat rule that could be invented). 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, toffolone said:

Things to nerf:

Clone token sharing

Taun taun

Clone token sharing (again)

Taun taun (again) 

And once again clone token sharing (you know what? Just take out this stupid mechanics: it clearly goes agsinstvthe rules)

Oh and rex of course.

Things to be improved or that need their point cost downed:

Dewback

Vader commander 

Droidekas

Grievious

B2s

 

All other things are good as they are. Only need some skill to be used.

Now of course every clone player out there says that token sharing is not overpowered.

But it is. Especially when it lets them bypass the regular stand by rules, making a single phase 2 unit way more effective than it should be... no wonder phase 2 are sold out.

Noone would use them if they could not cheat by sharing tokens with chesper units. Units thatvare in the list just to share tokens to phase 2s. 

But that came from the same minds that gave us taun tauns: a unit that at the cost of  2 actions can actually make 7 actions (free pivot, move, free dodge, free pivot, move, free dodge, free attack.) Plus Ram (which is the stupidest cheat rule that could be invented). 

 

 

 

I do agree that clone sharing needs to be nerfed to a degree but not removed entirely as it is what they are built to do. Maybe clones should be forced to pick a single unit to share with when attacking or defending similar to the veteran clone pilot on the saber tank limiting the amount of tokens they have at thier disposal while still keeping the token sharing that makes clones what they are.

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21 minutes ago, bumbleb1492 said:

I do agree that clone sharing needs to be nerfed to a degree but not removed entirely as it is what they are built to do. Maybe clones should be forced to pick a single unit to share with when attacking or defending similar to the veteran clone pilot on the saber tank limiting the amount of tokens they have at thier disposal while still keeping the token sharing that makes clones what they are.

I think if they just remove the ability to share standby tokens it would be fine. Phase 2s would still be good thanks to Reliable and courage 2, and ARCs would still have Tactical, but they would largely lose the ability to preemptively lock down a huge portion of the board with almost no possibility of counter play. 

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1 hour ago, Lochlan said:

I think if they just remove the ability to share standby tokens it would be fine. Phase 2s would still be good thanks to Reliable and courage 2, and ARCs would still have Tactical, but they would largely lose the ability to preemptively lock down a huge portion of the board with almost no possibility of counter play. 

I could really get behind this change. Clones still retain green token flexibility but are no longer able to double tap in a turn but you'll still take those units because of the mentioned benefits.

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8 hours ago, toffolone said:

Things to nerf:

Clone token sharing

Taun taun

Clone token sharing (again)

Taun taun (again) 

And once again clone token sharing (you know what? Just take out this stupid mechanics: it clearly goes agsinstvthe rules)

Oh and rex of course.

Things to be improved or that need their point cost downed:

Dewback

Vader commander 

Droidekas

Grievious

B2s

 

All other things are good as they are. Only need some skill to be used.

Now of course every clone player out there says that token sharing is not overpowered.

But it is. Especially when it lets them bypass the regular stand by rules, making a single phase 2 unit way more effective than it should be... no wonder phase 2 are sold out.

Noone would use them if they could not cheat by sharing tokens with chesper units. Units thatvare in the list just to share tokens to phase 2s. 

But that came from the same minds that gave us taun tauns: a unit that at the cost of  2 actions can actually make 7 actions (free pivot, move, free dodge, free pivot, move, free dodge, free attack.) Plus Ram (which is the stupidest cheat rule that could be invented). 

 

 

 

But mah clones! 😭

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Overall, I think only clones are a bit over the top. What I wish for the balance update is to tune down clones and make bad units viable:

GAR: they should definitely keep their token sharing to maintain identity. But standby sharing really sucks out a lot of fun, so I hope it gets treated in some way. Apart from that, clones are an elite army and should also pay the prize for that. 9 activations should be standard, 10 only with drawbacks, 11 nearly impossible

  • Phase 2: +8 Points base (with z-6 they the cost the same as z-6 p1 with clone captain, which is spot on imo)
  • ARCs: +8P on unit, +4P on strike team
  • R2: +5P, 3PO: -5P
  • BARC: -10 Base, -5 each weapon

CIS: I think they are actually very well balanced, only one bad and one underused unit.

  • Droidekas: -20P
  • B2: -2P/Model

Empire: I also think they are pretty well balanced. The only thing I don't like is the dominance of Shoretrooper+Mortars. I'd like to see more regular Stormtroopers. But both units are well priced, the problem is that 2 Storms + Heavy are more expensive than Shores+Mortar. Not sure how to tackle that ...

  • Both Vaders: -10
  • Fett: -10P
  • Scout Troopers: -10P base
  • Dewbacks: -10P base, -5P / weapon

Rebels: overall they are pretty decent, but they are the faction with the most crap units. The problem is that they are not bad by points but by design. Unless you make them ridiculously cheap, you can't make them viable by points adjustments only ...

  • Han Solo: -20P, give him long shot 1 and steady
  • R2: +5P, 3PO: -5P
  • Fleet Troopers: -1P/Model
  • Mark II: range 4
  • Rebel Commandos: -8P
  • Wookies: -5P/model, give them spur
  • Pathfinders: -2P/model
  • 1.4 FD: -10P
  • Air Speeder: give it barrage, give the harpoon pierce
  • Landspeeder: redo the whole light transport keyword, it is crap. Why not letting units shoot out? When inside you can do all actions, only one and no free actions if double moved. That opens a lot of fun options and also helps the imperial tank.

That said, I don't think, they will implement that many changes. The more changes they make the harder it gets for casual players to keep up ...

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7 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

That said, I don't think, they will implement that many changes. The more changes they make the harder it gets for casual players to keep up ...

I don't think that they will limit because of casual players. The first line in the rules before specifying the points change says that those are meant for tournament play. Of course I think that most casual players use them, but it's not mandatory.

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On 8/14/2020 at 3:29 PM, RyantheFett said:

So I am curious what does everyone think are the biggest problems that FFG should address? Nurf new factions or buff the old ones? Points change or rules change? And who are the biggest targets that could use it?

 

GAR: For me it seems like token sharing will have to be changed somehow. Or they will have to really hit P2s and ARCs hard. BARCs could use some love tho.

CIS: Droids are strong, but I am not sure if anything is OP(super biased because this is my faction lol). Looking at most CIS stuff I would say it just that the GCW units need a lot more help to get on the same level. Droidekas are a bit overpriced.

Rebels: Seems like Han and the two heavies could use some love. Wookies need a redo with some new keywords maybe?

Empire: Never played so not sure would could use a buff. Dewbacks for sure, but not sure after that? Know they need a lot of help since it looks like they may be the weakest faction after everybody get their snipers. Funny to look at the meta shift from Gen con to Invader League.

 

 

 

 

🧐
They could discover a cure for COVID-19 so that in person play can resume. 

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ARCs aren't even out and you people want them nerfed.  Good grief.  And a lot of you want to neuter the GAR as a faction by removing its one gimmick.  No thanks.  While we're at it, let's remove Imperial suppression abilities/command control, Rebel hero spam, and increase all CIS units by 25 points.  Seems fair. 🙄

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22 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

ARCs aren't even out and you people want them nerfed.  Good grief.  And a lot of you want to neuter the GAR as a faction by removing its one gimmick.  No thanks.  While we're at it, let's remove Imperial suppression abilities/command control, Rebel hero spam, and increase all CIS units by 25 points.  Seems fair. 🙄

They’ve established that any points changes are purely for the purpose of organized play...and there’s no organized play, so it seems pretty ludicrous to be asking for far reaching anything at this point in time.

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9 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Overall, I think only clones are a bit over the top. What I wish for the balance update is to tune down clones and make bad units viable:

GAR: they should definitely keep their token sharing to maintain identity. But standby sharing really sucks out a lot of fun, so I hope it gets treated in some way. Apart from that, clones are an elite army and should also pay the prize for that. 9 activations should be standard, 10 only with drawbacks, 11 nearly impossible

  • Phase 2: +8 Points base (with z-6 they the cost the same as z-6 p1 with clone captain, which is spot on imo)
  • ARCs: +8P on unit, +4P on strike team
  • R2: +5P, 3PO: -5P
  • BARC: -10 Base, -5 each weapon

CIS: I think they are actually very well balanced, only one bad and one underused unit.

  • Droidekas: -20P
  • B2: -2P/Model

Empire: I also think they are pretty well balanced. The only thing I don't like is the dominance of Shoretrooper+Mortars. I'd like to see more regular Stormtroopers. But both units are well priced, the problem is that 2 Storms + Heavy are more expensive than Shores+Mortar. Not sure how to tackle that ...

  • Both Vaders: -10
  • Fett: -10P
  • Scout Troopers: -10P base
  • Dewbacks: -10P base, -5P / weapon

Rebels: overall they are pretty decent, but they are the faction with the most crap units. The problem is that they are not bad by points but by design. Unless you make them ridiculously cheap, you can't make them viable by points adjustments only ...

  • Han Solo: -20P, give him long shot 1 and steady
  • R2: +5P, 3PO: -5P
  • Fleet Troopers: -1P/Model
  • Mark II: range 4
  • Rebel Commandos: -8P
  • Wookies: -5P/model, give them spur
  • Pathfinders: -2P/model
  • 1.4 FD: -10P
  • Air Speeder: give it barrage, give the harpoon pierce
  • Landspeeder: redo the whole light transport keyword, it is crap. Why not letting units shoot out? When inside you can do all actions, only one and no free actions if double moved. That opens a lot of fun options and also helps the imperial tank.

That said, I don't think, they will implement that many changes. The more changes they make the harder it gets for casual players to keep up ...

Love the changes!!!

 As for implementing them I like to think they have a way out by saying these changes are "for pro play". Which they have said. Throw in the silent understanding that most people just use the online builders and the lite releases later this year and I would not be shocked if they made it into a big event.

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10 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

CIS: I think they are actually very well balanced, only one bad and one underused unit.

  • B2: -2P/Model

image.jpeg.ae44b52443a121d229461e0b3b9df2a7.jpeg

 

Erm, have you done the math on that? They should be cheaper than... Well, everything?

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Vader commander 

are you joking? hes one of the worst commanders in the game. speed 1 makes him absolutely abysmal.

he absolutely needs a buff not a nerf

palpatine is even worse. the combination of short range, high points cost, and speed 1 is so crippling for both of those characters.

because theyre both huge points investments that cant really even have an effect on the game until mid to late game. they both need their points costs significantly reduced. and even lower points cost may not fix them because speed 1 is so nonfunctional in this game.

Quote

Air Speeder: give it barrage, give the harpoon pierce

the air speeder needs either blast or critical 2 on its main attack to help its dicepool against cover. 6 dice sucks when heavy cover is reducing it by 2. and the main weapon doesnt need impact 3. just make it impact 2 + critical 2 or impact 2 + blast. critical 2 or blast would give it surges to help it get past cover or let it ignore cover entirely.

as for the rear weapons on the airspeeder theyre both goofy and awkward. paying points for a rear weapon you may never even get to use just feels bad.

the rear weapons on the airspeeder should both cost 0 points. with the harpoon getting some buffs to make it a more balanced choice. giving the harpoon pierce 1 and either sharpshoopter 1 or critical 1 would help. it only rolls 1 dice so that 1 dice should at least be able to ignore cover/surge and ignore defense saves.

lastly I think the airspeeder should get outmaneuver and a free dodge token if you perform a movement action with it. theres way too many things that ignore cover and thats part of the reason the airspeeder is so bad. especially since armor means it cant fully make use of the cover keyword anyway and its only useful against impact attacks. it should should have outmaneuver and a free dodge if it moves to help it survive crits and sharpshooter attacks.

why can the clone tank do barrel rolls with dodge tokens and avoid crits but the airspeeder cant? it makes no sense. the airspeeder is way more maneuverable than a clone tank.

Edited by Khobai

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9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

are you joking? hes one of the worst commanders in the game. speed 1 makes him absolutely abysmal.

he absolutely needs a buff not a nerf

palpatine is even worse. the combination of short range, high points cost, and speed 1 is so crippling for both of those characters.

because theyre both huge points investments that cant really even have an effect on the game until mid to late game. they both need their points costs significantly reduced.

The post you quoted mentions Vader commander under units that need to have their point costs reduced.

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ah i missed that

then I agree vader needs his points reduced

but I still dont think a points reduction necessarily fixes being speed 1. speed 1 is so crippling in this game.

 there needs to be a force power that increases base movement to 2. that way it doesnt help characters that are already speed 2. it only helps characters that are speed 1.

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3 hours ago, Qwar said:

Erm, have you done the math on that?

Yes, sir!

Base B2 would be 42. They are a range 2 unit with all it's flaws. Compare them with Fleets (which I'd like to see at 40P): B2 are more durable (more HP, Armor, still weaker save) but have less damage output (basically same pool but fewer models, no access to pierce. Access to R3 blast though, but that weapons not cheap either).

Most of all CIS hast Access to a unit that is even cheaper by 6P base and has the very important Coordinate Keyword. So we would probably still never see B2s ...

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I see B2 all the time, even if it's only 1 unit. Last week got my *** kicked by a list with 5 or 6 B2 units. Their problem isn't that they are bad, it's the coordinate chain. That's not going to be solved by dropping their points. But I don't get why they must be spamable.

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Posted (edited)

Not gonna comment on too many specific changes since that would take all day. Just two things :

 

1- Clone ability to share standbys may need to go. But, I think that the level of panic about GAR needs to come way down. It's pretty insane that people are calling for balancing a unit that nobody even has yet (ARCs), in a game that is notoriously slow to make any balance changes, especially since the unit itself isn't the actual problem in my opinion.

ARC strike teams look strong, but strike teams in general are a huge burden on game design in Legion. The ability to provide targeted, high reliability damage combined with cheap orders is always going to be problematic for any faction, as can be seen in essentially any list in a competitive environment.

If a unit concept is so efficient that all factions use 2 to 3 of them in every single list, then it needs to be addressed at the root. I like the idea of 1/strike per full similar unit, but simply limiting strike teams to 1 per army would at least foster some list variety.

This would also serve to address activation bloat. I probably don't have a perfect solution here, but something needs to be done about Strike Teams.

 

2- Can we stop pretending that we're not living in 2020?

People have cellphones, tablets, laptops, desktops, sometimes several of some or each of those. Internet access is ubiquitous. Saying that we need to have cards for the "casual crowd" is ludicrous.

The idea of having paper components is harming all FFG competitive games by limiting their ability to tweak the game.

Sure there are probably couples playing at the kitchen tables using cards but I can't imagine that this is a majority of players. This is a fairly high-cost competitive game, people want up to date rules, people want balancing to occur as often as is needed.

The move needs to be made to either all-digital or mostly digital game data. Even having only point costs online is not enough. The more "knobs" you can turn to balance a game (adding or removing keywords, upgrade slots, damage dice, etc) the better the game can be balanced.

When you only have a giant POINT COST knob you often lack the tools you need to bring some units in line.

Having one foot in, one foot out is also a terrible idea. You can't start out with paper components then start changing the range on weapons and not expect people to be a little confused. They need to commit one way or the other, and in my opinion the only option is to commit to digital.

Sure FFG didn't put its best foot forward with the X-Wing app, but that doesn't mean they have to stop trying, it just means they have to do better.

Edited by OneLastMidnight

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8 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:

1- Clone ability to share standbys may need to go. But, I think that the level of panic about GAR needs to come way down. It's pretty insane that people are calling for balancing a unit that nobody even has yet (ARCs), in a game that is notoriously slow to make any balance changes, especially since the unit itself isn't the actual problem in my opinion.

ARC strike teams look strong, but strike teams in general are a huge burden on game design in Legion. The ability to provide targeted, high reliability damage combined with cheap orders is always going to be problematic for any faction, as can be seen in essentially any list in a competitive environment.

If a unit concept is so efficient that all factions use 2 to 3 of them in every single list, then it needs to be addressed at the root. I like the idea of 1/strike per full similar unit, but simply limiting strike teams to 1 per army would at least foster some list variety.

This would also serve to address activation bloat. I probably don't have a perfect solution here, but something needs to be done about Strike Teams.

I would say the fear of ARCs may be misplaced, but at the same time with only one points change a year I rather be on the side of caution. Sure we only got two tournaments to go by, but man they really look so different.

GenCon top 8 https://thefifthtrooper.com/gencon-online-top-8/ has a few of every faction and somewhat different list. 3 Rebels, 2 GAR, 2 CIS, and an Empire.

Compare that to Invaders League https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination. Top 8 now has 5 GAR, 2 CIS, and a Rebel list. And most of the GAR list are copies of each other lol https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists

But I'll take that standby change and call it a win.

36 minutes ago, OneLastMidnight said:

The idea of having paper components is harming all FFG competitive games by limiting their ability to tweak the game.

Sure there are probably couples playing at the kitchen tables using cards but I can't imagine that this is a majority of players. This is a fairly high-cost competitive game, people want up to date rules, people want balancing to occur as often as is needed.

The move needs to be made to either all-digital or mostly digital game data. Even having only point costs online is not enough. The more "knobs" you can turn to balance a game (adding or removing keywords, upgrade slots, damage dice, etc) the better the game can be balanced.

When you only have a giant POINT COST knob you often lack the tools you need to bring some units in line.

Having one foot in, one foot out is also a terrible idea. You can't start out with paper components then start changing the range on weapons and not expect people to be a little confused. They need to commit one way or the other, and in my opinion the only option is to commit to digital.

I am not sure what part I hate more. That X-wing is right there doing a pretty good balance of cards and online, or the feeling that FFG dpends on the community to build their game own apps to run everything.

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15 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Rebels: overall they are pretty decent, but they are the faction with the most crap units. The problem is that they are not bad by points but by design. Unless you make them ridiculously cheap, you can't make them viable by points adjustments only ...

  • Mark II: range 4

Not too sure if I agree with this as an E-Web is only range 3. Though I like most of the rest of your points.

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1 hour ago, Sekac said:

You don't have to go full digital. Have cards with cool art and QR codes to look up their stats! 😄

I really like that QR code idea a lot!

 

5 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

I would say the fear of ARCs may be misplaced, but at the same time with only one points change a year I rather be on the side of caution. Sure we only got two tournaments to go by, but man they really look so different.

GenCon top 8 https://thefifthtrooper.com/gencon-online-top-8/ has a few of every faction and somewhat different list. 3 Rebels, 2 GAR, 2 CIS, and an Empire.

Compare that to Invaders League https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination. Top 8 now has 5 GAR, 2 CIS, and a Rebel list. And most of the GAR list are copies of each other lol https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists

But I'll take that standby change and call it a win.

I am not sure what part I hate more. That X-wing is right there doing a pretty good balance of cards and online, or the feeling that FFG dpends on the community to build their game own apps to run everything.

It's just a feeling, but I think that those changes (less strike teams, no standby sharing) might actually be coming up. FFG really prefers to address problems through the rules document if they can avoid touching cards (which is a huge problem but that's another discussion).

It's going to be hard to strike a balance for the GAR. The design room is razor thin: P1 and P2 are already almost the same unit with an upgrade down to even a heavy weapon. You can't (ever) have a R3+ unit/gun with crit surges due to fire support. You can't have surges on clones (outside characters) due to Surge tokens being core to their identity. You can't have a cheap clone unit since that would enable high activations with token generation.

They're probably going to have to branch away from Clones (Wookiees, Twi'lek rebels, Jedi units, non-Clone characters) to have any kind of breathing room.

Clones already want more Clones since they multiply value, which means that anything that's not a Clone or can't share tokens will see very limited play unless they're spectacular. It's already happening with Obi-Wan, who's amazing but it starting to get phased out. But without that value multiplication through token sharing, Clones are pretty overpriced. Does losing Standby sharing break that value proposition? Maybe, maybe not. It's a huge change for sure.

 

As far as apps go, they have to improve, there's no denying that, but them clinging to cardboard just because "that's how it's always been done" is very shortsighted.

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