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urloony

So Hulk is out

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1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Out of interest, does it include non-mainstream titles published by Marvel (UK) such as Strikeforce: Morituri and Zoids?

Strikeforce: Morituri love that story.

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20 hours ago, urloony said:

In Marvel's history, character shake up has always been an attempt to revitalize a comic line to make more money.  This never became Marvel practice until the Jim Shooter days in the 1970's, and that's the point.  If you want to obfuscate that point with claims of what other comic companies did during the golden age, go ahead, but it has no bearing on the point I'm making.  We can pretend it's part of the "DNA of superhero comics," but the unfortunate reality is that it is merely an attempt to improve the financial bottom-line of Marvel. 

Hero changes in 2020 however, or no longer prompted by financial need, they're social.  (This is the part that gets me into trouble).  Marvel now panders to the screamers on social media to develop their current comic line.  DC has spent years doing exactly the same thing, and now are now reaping what they've sown as of 2 days ago.  The comic industry is in the dumpster because thy no longer write for their fans, but pander to the loudest posters on social media (who never buy comics by the way).  I just hope Marvel wakes up and realizes that all of their pandering  

Apart from the Human Torch who got repurposed in 1961 of course by Lee and Kirby for the start of the Fantastic Four.

I give them much credit for their creativity, but repurposing has and always will be a part of the creative endeavor. You’re bemoaning the loss of something that never has been.

 

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5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Out of interest, does it include non-mainstream titles published by Marvel (UK) such as Strikeforce: Morituri and Zoids?

Strikeforce: Morituri appears to be on there...

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On 8/13/2020 at 6:10 PM, urloony said:

In Marvel's history, character shake up has always been an attempt to revitalize a comic line to make more money.  This never became Marvel practice until the Jim Shooter days in the 1970's, and that's the point.  If you want to obfuscate that point with claims of what other comic companies did during the golden age, go ahead, but it has no bearing on the point I'm making.  We can pretend it's part of the "DNA of superhero comics," but the unfortunate reality is that it is merely an attempt to improve the financial bottom-line of Marvel. 

Hero changes in 2020 however, or no longer prompted by financial need, they're social.  (This is the part that gets me into trouble).  Marvel now panders to the screamers on social media to develop their current comic line.  DC has spent years doing exactly the same thing, and now are now reaping what they've sown as of 2 days ago.  The comic industry is in the dumpster because thy no longer write for their fans, but pander to the loudest posters on social media (who never buy comics by the way).  I just hope Marvel wakes up and realizes that all of their pandering  

Marvel is and always has been about two things: making as much money as they can while telling the stories they want to tell. Sometimes there's a push and pull there, but if you think any of the recent decisions have been about anything other than those two things you will have a really, really difficult time understanding the decision making process at Marvel.

 

There's still no need to invent bizarre conspiracy theories that rely on creative companies doing anything for any other purpose than making as much money as possible while telling the stories they want to tell. And hey, sometimes a company is telling stories I don't want to read. That's fine. I don't have to read them. What I don't do is invent some bizarre theories about why that company is telling those stories- they are always doing it because they are trying to make money while telling the stories they want to tell.

 

And sometimes that means that stories change over time. It's a lot harder to make money by selling racist stories now than it was in the 50's, for instance. That doesn't mean that people writing newer stories are pandering. That simply means that societies change over time and what was once acceptable may not be as acceptable now. You can call that pandering if you want, but it's sort of bound up in the fundamental underpinnings of reality: times change, people change, societies change.

 

And by the way, if you are actually wondering why Marvel started writing more stories with awesome girls and women in them. That's easy. There are a lot of girls and women in the world. They read. In fact, they read more (on average) than boys and men. Marvel likes making money. It would be sheer idiocy not to write stories with awesome girls and women in them- at least if Marvel wants to make money (and they do) it would be. It's not rocket science.

 

But perhaps you do have some sort of point here (though so far it has been incredibly difficult to discern unless it really is that Marvel should stop writing stories with awesome women and minorities in them). Why should Marvel refrain from growing its audience? Why should Marvel not attempt to capitalize on the successes of the MCU (which is very popular across a wide range of demographics)? Why should Marvel not innovate? Not change with the times? Why should Marvel decide to be hidebound and regressive and only appeal to a shrinking audience of people who are uncomfortable with stories featuring awesome women and minorities? How is that a successful formula for a current company?

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4 hours ago, Derrault said:

Apart from the Human Torch who got repurposed in 1961 of course by Lee and Kirby for the start of the Fantastic Four.

No.  The Human Torch (android) and Human Torch (Johnny Storm) are separate characters.  They've actually faught each other.  Initially it might have been seen as a repurposed, but they changed that perception very early on.  It's funny, when I was writing my comment, I thought someone is going to mention the Human Torch... There was actually a bit of controversy when their battle comic came out, many in the industry considered it a slight to Burgos to have him lose to Marvel's Johnny Storm.

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4 hours ago, Derrault said:

I give them much credit for their creativity, but repurposing has and always will be a part of the creative endeavor. You’re bemoaning the loss of something that never has been.

The repackaging of heroes has never been a welcome event by fans or by the writers and artists.  You should read more of Marvel's history and the bemoaning that actually came from the bull pen when they started heading into the repurposing of some characters after Stan Lee left for California.  Many of the new writers knew Lee would never have allowed such mistreatment of their characters.  Marvel has made such a terrible habit of doing exactly this that the general public now considers it "normal."    

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1 hour ago, Janaka said:

Just got home after a few days away. My Hulk hero pack was despatched but never arrived in the post. Tracking number says it was delivered last Saturday. It most certainly wasn't!!!!

Bah!!!

That is some tough luck.  I've had a few packages say they were delivered and never show up.  Who did you order from?  Sometimes they will reship lost shipments, Coolstuff was good about that with me a few years ago, when a package with a ton of stuff went missing around Christmas time.

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45 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

And by the way, if you are actually wondering why Marvel started writing more stories with awesome girls and women in them. That's easy. There are a lot of girls and women in the world. They read. In fact, they read more (on average) than boys and men. Marvel likes making money. It would be sheer idiocy not to write stories with awesome girls and women in them- at least if Marvel wants to make money (and they do) it would be. It's not rocket science.

Ok.  So these two comments that I will quote are tacitly suggesting that I'm sexist, which I am not.  My favorite character to play in Marvel Champions has been She-Hulk (by far).  Marvel has been writing strong women in comics since the 60's.  There has been a plethora of strong heroines for decades, this is not something Marvel has just discovered.  In fact, my bigger question for Marvel's MCU is why they didn't base Captain Marvel on Monica Rambeau, the first female Captain Marvel?  She's a strong female character that, in my opinion, would have been a significantly better choice than what we ended up with.  

Marvel likes making money, but they like social justice more.  If you're unaware of the reckoning that is currently happening at DC, you should take a look.  It may not come to Marvel immediately, but it's on the horizon.  It's not a bazaar conspiracy theory to know that the comic industry is in the toilet because they are driven by social justice politics instead of good story writing.  Look at the latest Wonder Woman cover if you're still not sure.

45 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

Why should Marvel decide to be hidebound and regressive and only appeal to a shrinking audience of people who are uncomfortable with stories featuring awesome women and minorities? How is that a successful formula for a current company?

Marvel isn't growing their audience, it's shrinking.  Black Panther, The Falcon, Dust (the first Muslim superhero), She-Hulk, Spawn (one of the best selling comics of all time), all had or continue to have successful comic sales.  This isn't about female or minority characters, it has never been.  The 21st century trope is to blame bad sales on racism or sexism, when in fact the real reason is that modern mainstream comics have allowed politics to dictate the writing.  Only a Muslim can write about a Muslim character?  Only a black writer can write a comic about a black character?  Only a woman can write about female characters?  This is what drives the writing today, politics, not merit.          

Edited by urloony

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13 minutes ago, urloony said:

Ok.  So these two comments that I will quote are tacitly suggesting that I'm sexist, which I am not.  My favorite character to play in Marvel Champions has been She-Hulk (by far).  Marvel has been writing strong women in comics since the 60's.  There has been a plethora of strong heroines for decades, this is not something Marvel has just discovered.  In fact, my bigger question for Marvel's MCU is why they didn't base Captain Marvel on Monica Rambeau, the first female Captain Marvel?  She's a strong female character that, in my opinion, would have been a significantly better choice than what we ended up with.  

Marvel likes making money, but they like social justice more.  If you're unaware of the reckoning that is currently happening at DC, you should take a look.  It may not come to Marvel immediately, but it's on the horizon.  It's not a bazaar conspiracy theory to know that the comic industry is in the toilet because they are driven by social justice politics instead of good story writing.  Look at the latest Wonder Woman cover if you're still not sure.

Marvel isn't growing their audience, it's shrinking.  Black Panther, The Falcon, Dust (the first Muslim superhero), She-Hulk, Spawn (one of the best selling comics of all time), all had or continue to have successful comic sales.  This isn't about female or minority characters, it has never been.  The 21st century trope is to blame bad sales on racism or sexism, when in fact the real reason is that modern mainstream comics have allowed politics to dictate the writing.  Only a Muslim can write about a Muslim character?  Only a black writer can write a comic about a black character?  Only a woman can write about female characters?  This is what drives the writing today, politics, not merit.          

This is absurd drivel. 

 

You think you are complaining about politics influencing storytelling. You are not. You are complaining about your politics being challenged. And, again, that's just part of life. Saying that Marvel should not use Muslim characters or not have black writers writing black characters or women writers writing women characters is also politics. What you want is your politics to influence the story rather than politics you don't espouse.

 

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4 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

This is absurd drivel. 

You think you are complaining about politics influencing storytelling. You are not. You are complaining about your politics being challenged. And, again, that's just part of life. Saying that Marvel should not use Muslim characters or not have black writers writing black characters or women writers writing women characters is also politics. What you want is your politics to influence the story rather than politics you don't espouse.

 

I never suggested that Marvel should not use Muslim characters or black female writers.  I just gave you a list of popular and successful female and minority characters.  What I'm saying is that now, race and gender have become the primary basis for how writers and artists are hired at Marvel (and also DC).  Typically, merit has been the industry standard for hiring.  That has clearly changed.  Apparently hiring based on merit is a political view now?  It's the same reason Yale is now getting sued for discriminating against Asian student applicants.  Their scores were too high, so they had to deduct points from test scores based on the race of the applicant. 

Stan Lee prided himself on fence sitting with regard to politics.  When a writer attempted to interject their political view into a comic story, as editor, he would have them remove it.  It's the same reason he didn't send Captain America to Vietnam, because he didn't want to make political statements.  He used to get letters from both sides of the aisle praising his comics each claiming a more conservative or liberal bias in his comics.  As a result, in those days, sales were through the roof.        

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The idea that women and minority writers do not merit their hiring is absurd drivel. What special property is it that white guys have that means their hirings are meritorious? Why is it that women and minorities lack that special white-guy merit?

Try again.

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3 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

The idea that women and minority writers do not merit their hiring is absurd drivel. What special property is it that white guys have that means their hirings are meritorious? Why is it that women and minorities lack that special white-guy merit?

Try again.

Wow, it feels like you're intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying.  Let me make this clear.  Hiring should not be about race or gender.  It should be about merit.  If you want to hire one of two people, you should hire the better writer regardless of their skin color or gender.  That's all I'm saying.  Marvel's hiring practices are not that.  Marvel tends to hire based on race and gender, with merit being a close second or third.  

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2 minutes ago, urloony said:

Wow, it feels like you're intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying.  Let me make this clear.  Hiring should not be about race or gender.  It should be about merit.  If you want to hire one of two people, you should hire the better writer regardless of their skin color or gender.  That's all I'm saying.  Marvel's hiring practices are not that.  Marvel tends to hire based on race and gender, with merit being a close second or third.  

How in the world do you know the basis upon which Marvel is hiring? You are simply assuming that women and minorities are not hired based on merit. Which is absurd. And drivel. 

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6 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

How in the world do you know the basis upon which Marvel is hiring? You are simply assuming that women and minorities are not hired based on merit. Which is absurd. And drivel. 

It's common public knowledge.  If you're an avid reader of Marvel, you know the writers and artists.  Many of these writers were virtual unknowns to the comic industry, nor had any writing or artistic background, which is quite telling.  The sentence "In an increase to have more talent that fits the characters they want to explore.." and "The recent influx of black writers is helping turn the tide from white writers always handling the stories of black heroes," explains their motivation.  Again, lest my words be twisted, there is nothing wrong with hiring anyone of any race, creed, or gender, as long as it is based on merit.  That's how quality is established.  Marvel is not following that standard.  

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6 minutes ago, urloony said:

It's common public knowledge.  If you're an avid reader of Marvel, you know the writers and artists.  Many of these writers were virtual unknowns to the comic industry, nor had any writing or artistic background, which is quite telling.  The sentence "In an increase to have more talent that fits the characters they want to explore.." and "The recent influx of black writers is helping turn the tide from white writers always handling the stories of black heroes," explains their motivation.  Again, lest my words be twisted, there is nothing wrong with hiring anyone of any race, creed, or gender, as long as it is based on merit.  That's how quality is established.  Marvel is not following that standard.  

You have no basis upon which to make that assessment. What you have demonstrated is that Marvel is hiring minorities. Of course they are. That makes sense. What you have yet to establish is that those writers do not merit those hirings. That's simply an assertion you feel comfortable making. 

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9 minutes ago, t4leswapper said:

You have no basis upon which to make that assessment. What you have demonstrated is that Marvel is hiring minorities. Of course they are. That makes sense. What you have yet to establish is that those writers do not merit those hirings. That's simply an assertion you feel comfortable making. 

No I've established they're specifically hiring minority writers for minority characters.  Again from the article: [David] Brothers wrote. “Storm is the highest profile black character in comics. But she’s mostly been written by white men, and a very small fraternity of black men, throughout the decades. … Shouldn’t a black lady get a chance at bat?”  (The irony here of course is that Storm was created by two white guys).  This clearly points to the fact that gender and skin color should be more important for Marvel writers working on minority characters than the merit of how well one writes.   

My point has been clearly made.

Edited by urloony

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56 minutes ago, urloony said:

No I've established they're specifically hiring minority writers for minority characters.  Again from the article: [David] Brothers wrote. “Storm is the highest profile black character in comics. But she’s mostly been written by white men, and a very small fraternity of black men, throughout the decades. … Shouldn’t a black lady get a chance at bat?”  (The irony here of course is that Storm was created by two white guys).  This clearly points to the fact that gender and skin color should be more important for Marvel writers working on minority characters than the merit of how well one writes.   

My point has been clearly made.

I'm going to try one last time. After that, I will recognize that you simply are not interested in any sort of self-recognition on this topic.

 

Of course Marvel is hiring minority writers to write minority characters. This is not a Marvel only thing. It's sort of the way writing happens now. We like people to write about topics they have some knowledge of, that includes things like 'what is it like to live as this person.' Lgbt authors are more equipped to write lgbt characters. African American writers have a better handle on African Americans. Women know more about what it is to live as a woman than men do. The era of the minstrel show is now comfortably in the past.

This is how good writing happens. Write what you know being the quintessential writer's maxim and all that.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that one can hire a minority (intentionally so) and yet still hire based on merit. It's not even that difficult. There are all sorts of awesome and qualified people out there. What your stance- people who don't have an employment history within the comics industry should generally not be hired- does is ensure that there are barriers to entry for minorities. It means that any industry which has historically been dominated by white guys (as so many have due to things like our history of racism and sexism) will continue to be dominated by white guys.

 

And there are a great number of obvious problems with that state of affairs. One that you might be overlooking, however, is that it constrains the narrative scope of comics. It ensures that only the perspective of white guys is given weight. And that means that we miss out on a whole host of really awesome stories and characters, but it also means that our understanding of the world in which we live is constrained and hidebound.

There's a reason why study after study has shown that the best outcomes come from diverse rather than homogeneous coalitions. There's a reason why successful companies are trying to reverse the trends that you seem to want to preserve. There's a ton of great stuff out there being written by women and minorities. Broaden your horizons a bit. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, urloony said:

No.  The Human Torch (android) and Human Torch (Johnny Storm) are separate characters.  They've actually faught each other.  Initially it might have been seen as a repurposed, but they changed that perception very early on.  It's funny, when I was writing my comment, I thought someone is going to mention the Human Torch... There was actually a bit of controversy when their battle comic came out, many in the industry considered it a slight to Burgos to have him lose to Marvel's Johnny Storm.

So, initially Captain Marvel might have repurposed Mar-Vell, and Ms. Marvel might have repurposed Danvers (title) but they were quickly shown to be totally different characters.

There’s no difference once you have some decades of perspective on this, you might see that. 

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2 hours ago, t4leswapper said:

Of course Marvel is hiring minority writers to write minority characters. This is not a Marvel only thing. It's sort of the way writing happens now.

Yet, this practice violates federal hiring law. This will be my last post on the topic.  I appreciate the conversation with you, and I enjoy these types of conversations, as I think they are beneficial to those who read them and helpful for us to discuss and share different perspectives on a topic that is clearly important to both of us.  However, this will soon get the attention of the mods and either you or I (probably me) will be banned from the forums.  I see that you're pretty new to the forums, but the Mods don't like open debate of this level or on these kinds of topics, and their tolerance is limited.   I'll conclude by saying that I think diversity in writers and in characters obviously brings exciting variety to the comic world.  I think when authentic characters such as the ones I've mentioned before are designed and written well they become an asset to a story and become classic characters everyone loves.  

 

 

Edited by urloony

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

So, initially Captain Marvel might have repurposed Mar-Vell, and Ms. Marvel might have repurposed Danvers (title) but they were quickly shown to be totally different characters.

There’s no difference once you have some decades of perspective on this, you might see that. 

Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) was a tanking comic; it wasn't making money so it got cancelled.  A few years later, as Marvel was trying to bring more leading female characters into their comics, they brought in Ms. Marvel (Danvers).  Similar outfit colors (although less outfit), and similar powers.  She had a Kree origin and a Kree source of powers.  Danvers wasn't known as Captain Marvel until recently.  If you want to say re-purpose, that's fine.  Ms. Marvel didn't sell very well and it too was cancelled and later brought back.  So why bring in Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel?  It's so they can sell comics of a character people have heard of.  That's all.  There's no deeper meaning than that and it's lazy.  They did the same thing with Miles and Riri and it's all laziness.  I think Marvel feared that if they brought them in as new characters, they would have suffered the same fate as "Safe Space" and "Snowflake."  If you haven't heard of those last two characters, you really don't know what state Marvel is really in.

Edited by urloony

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2 hours ago, urloony said:

Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) was a tanking comic; it wasn't making money so it got cancelled.  A few years later, as Marvel was trying to bring more leading female characters into their comics, they brought in Ms. Marvel (Danvers).  Similar outfit colors (although less outfit), and similar powers.  She had a Kree origin and a Kree source of powers.  Danvers wasn't known as Captain Marvel until recently.  If you want to say re-purpose, that's fine.  Ms. Marvel didn't sell very well and it too was cancelled and later brought back.  So why bring in Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel?  It's so they can sell comics of a character people have heard of.  That's all.  There's no deeper meaning than that and it's lazy.  They did the same thing with Miles and Riri and it's all laziness.  I think Marvel feared that if they brought them in as new characters, they would have suffered the same fate as "Safe Space" and "Snowflake."  If you haven't heard of those last two characters, you really don't know what state Marvel is really in.

If your argument is that they called her Ms Marvel because they though that would sell better than “Stretchy Girl” or something like that, then I fully agree. It can be very difficult to establish new characters into Marvel, of any background - see Gravity, a white male character I remember Marvel trying to push reasonably hard as a modern Spider-Man type, who stuck around as a bit player to some extent, but didn’t exactly make much of a splash.

I would argue that the launch of Ms Marvel is anything but lazy - they worked extremely hard to create links to the wider Marvel Universe - establishing a connection to the former Ms Marvel (which explains why the character would take on the name) and the Inhumans. What do the Inhumans and Mar-vell have in common? Their powers come from the Kree... They also clearly pushed the character cameos early - stories with Wolverine and Spider-Man? Shameless popularity boosts, sure. But part of what was definitely not a lazy strategy to give the character a fighting chance.

Personally, part of the reason I read Marvel is the established shared universe that these characters inhabit. Names that tie new characters into that shared mythology are a good thing, not a bad thing for me. They could have made her very unconnected to the wider comics - she could have lived miles from New York and existed in her own little corner of the world where she didn’t really have to interact with the wider / more established characters and stories, but that would be far less interesting to me.

Edited by FearLord

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