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GenCon Top 8 - Fifth Trooper Blog

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14 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Any way you could provide a source? The fact that they can knock dozens of points off of things and make other points adjustments makes me pretty dubious. IF it exists, it is a very rough estimation they just use to start playtesting and go from there.

It was this forum, a long time ago, they worked it out by reverse engineering the costs. The z6 for example meant that they knew it cost 2 pts per white dice. I think it was 1 of for surge to hit and 1 for surge to block. The hardest ones to figure were the heroes, but you have things like command cards there. 

Example because they figured it was 2 pts per white dice on attack, they could figure it was 3 pts per black since the major difference between rebel troopers and fleets was 1 black vs 2 white,  though that might not be accurate since the ranges were different, but it serves as a rough example of how they did it

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Posted (edited)
On 8/10/2020 at 3:36 PM, Qwar said:

Yeah I didn't intend to imply that it has never worked, that's why I wrote they needed to update, sorry if it wasn't too clear.

Well to be fair to Imperial players, the faction has always leaned quite heavily that way anyway, even before Shores they liked having gun lines with lots of aims, and dumping suppression down rather than going for kills, Shores just took that to the most extreme we've seen it so far.

Now that that sort of thing doesn't work that well, the Empire has begun to change up its options, Iden isn't like Veers or Krennic, just sitting at the back passing out aims and supporting the army, she actively wants to take the fight to the enemy up close. She is far more mobile than other Imperial Commander's have been, and she packs the fire power to go along with it. I think that is why Inferno Squad are so interesting, yes they are like Death Troopers, but they are cheaper, and also encourage you to play aggressive. With a little bit more support with some more releases I can see the Empire having two viable strategies, the gun line and shock and awe front line assault.

As a side point, I think that it is possible we might see a Droid Trooper Core unit for the Empire in the future, something that Del will go along with really nicely, maybe some kind of Dark Trooper like the DT-series sentry droid, or maybe even some KX-series security droids.

Edited by Nithorian

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1 hour ago, Nithorian said:

Well to be fair to Imperial players, the faction has always leaned quite heavily that way anyway, even before Shores they liked having gun lines with lots of aims, and dumping suppression down rather than going for kills, Shores just took that to the most extreme we've seen it so far.

Now that that sort of thing doesn't work that well, the Empire has begun to change up its options, Iden isn't like Veers or Krennic, just sitting at the back passing out aims and supporting the army, she actively wants to take the fight to the enemy up close. She is far more mobile than other Imperial Commander's have been, and she packs the fire power to go along with it. I think that is why Inferno Squad are so interesting, yes they are like Death Troopers, but they are cheaper, and also encourage you to play aggressive. With a little bit more support with some more releases I can see the Empire having two viable strategies, the gun line and shock and awe front line assault.

As a side point, I think that it is possible we might see a Droid Trooper Core unit for the Empire in the future, something that Del will go along with really nicely, maybe some kind of Dark Trooper like the DT-series sentry droid, or maybe even some KX-series security droids.

FFG gave every aggressive unit speed 1 with the exception of Royal Guards, canyou blame  Empire players for disliking these units

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1 hour ago, TheHoosh said:

love that R2 is in multiple lists despite people saying he sucked and long live AATs

It's VERY common for people to assess a model's strength in a wargame based on combat potential without really appreciating that VP wins games.

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3 hours ago, Darth evil said:

FFG gave every aggressive unit speed 1 with the exception of Royal Guards, canyou blame  Empire players for disliking these units

And yet Snow Troopers are one of the few units in the game with the ability to shoot for free after moving. That’s a pretty good trade for losing a speed. 

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1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

And yet Snow Troopers are one of the few units in the game with the ability to shoot for free after moving. That’s a pretty good trade for losing a speed. 

And you add an officer and use them for you hostage escort forthe exchange mission and you have a courage 3 unit that can shoot every turn while retreating. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Bigbboyd said:

And you add an officer and use them for you hostage escort forthe exchange mission and you have a courage 3 unit that can shoot every turn while retreating. 

Snow's weakness was always their heavy weapon options. The only decent one worth taking is the flamethrower, and no one wants to really be at range two if the rest of the Empire's units work so much better at range 3/4. They are just up there all alone with no support. I guess now with inferno squad you could put Del or Hask in as their Heavy weapon instead, and that might work out a lot better for them, especially a range 5 sniper, now with steady. You could come out from behind LOS blocking terrain, shoot and then go back behind it, keep Veers or an Imperial Officer nearby to give them aims and you've got a pretty nasty unit, that only gets stronger if you can push into range 3 to get the rest of the squad in range.

Edited by Nithorian

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3 hours ago, Nithorian said:

Snow's weakness was always their heavy weapon options. The only decent one worth taking is the flamethrower, and no one wants to really be at range two if the rest of the Empire's units work so much better at range 3/4. They are just up there all alone with no support. I guess now with inferno squad you could put Del or Hask in as their Heavy weapon instead, and that might work out a lot better for them, especially a range 5 sniper, now with steady. You could come out from behind LOS blocking terrain, shoot and then go back behind it, keep Veers or an Imperial Officer nearby to give them aims and you've got a pretty nasty unit, that only gets stronger if you can push into range 3 to get the rest of the squad in range.

I have found 1 or 2 squads being used with Flamer and Frag Grenade makes good objective grabbers so long as you aren't running long march. 

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5 hours ago, Nithorian said:

Snow's weakness was always their heavy weapon options. The only decent one worth taking is the flamethrower, and no one wants to really be at range two if the rest of the Empire's units work so much better at range 3/4. They are just up there all alone with no support. I guess now with inferno squad you could put Del or Hask in as their Heavy weapon instead, and that might work out a lot better for them, especially a range 5 sniper, now with steady. You could come out from behind LOS blocking terrain, shoot and then go back behind it, keep Veers or an Imperial Officer nearby to give them aims and you've got a pretty nasty unit, that only gets stronger if you can push into range 3 to get the rest of the squad in range.

Iv'e found the Ion gun isn't bad (I've had it used against me several times) since they upped the range and made it cheaper. I almost always run vehicles (AT-RTs) so they always had something juicy to shoot at. They're probably still better off with the Flamethrower or just suing a different Corps, but the ion gun is not as abominable as it once was.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/6/2020 at 8:30 PM, Orkimedes said:

Let's take a look at the top 8 from last weekends Legion tournament at GenCon Online.

https://thefifthtrooper.com/gencon-online-top-8/

Look at invader league though

no vehicles

dont get vehicles being used due to a lack of other options confused with vehicles being good. 

because as soon as clones and droids get better trooper units they won’t be using vehicles anymore 

Invader league has shown how Broken arc trooper spam is

 

 

Edited by Khobai

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9 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Look at invader league though

no vehicles

dont get vehicles being used due to a lack of other options confused with vehicles being good. 

because as soon as clones and droids get better trooper units they won’t be using vehicles anymore 

Invader league has shown how Broken arc trooper spam is

 

 

Among CIS players who made it to single eliminations in Season 5, more than half of them had vehicles. 8/14 (3 AAT lists, 5 STAPs lists [all with at least 2]).

9/20 Rebel lists had vehicles (8 AT-RT lists, one double Airspeeder)

3/9 Empire lists had vehicles (1 2xSpeeder Bikes, 1 AT-ST, 1 double Occupier), and there was one list with a broken link so I don't know what he had

2/20 GAR lists had vehicles (2 Saber lists)

Overall that's 22/63.  For GAR, ARCs are absolutely better than anything else at the moment, so that's pretty much all anyone will see from them for the moment, but the tank is still good so it will still get taken occasionally.  For Empire, their vehicle lists tend to be all-or-nothing—they either go all in on heavies or don't take them at all (other than the occasional speeder bikes).  For CIS and Rebels though, their good vehicles are staples of their armies and aren't going anywhere any time soon.

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On 8/10/2020 at 12:15 PM, arnoldrew said:

Says who? Units are balanced within a faction as well, not just made in a vacuum. There's also the fact that you can't even take the mortar without also taking the Coordinate unit, so putting some of the cost on the mortar would not be totally unreasonable. It's pretty clear point costs are just made up by winging it and then playtesting and not based on some sort of grand formula, anyway.

I assume that it works similarly to how points costs worked for HeroClix when I was involved in their pt process--there was a point formula, but it was only a starting point, and costs could bea adjusted based on feedback.

Kind of like the Pirate's Code --It's more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

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On 8/12/2020 at 2:34 AM, Bigbboyd said:

And you add an officer and use them for you hostage escort forthe exchange mission and you have a courage 3 unit that can shoot every turn while retreating. 

Courage 3? Why? They have a Courage base of 1.

 

On 8/12/2020 at 9:43 AM, Nithorian said:

Snow's weakness was always their heavy weapon options. The only decent one worth taking is the flamethrower, and no one wants to really be at range two if the rest of the Empire's units work so much better at range 3/4. They are just up there all alone with no support. I guess now with inferno squad you could put Del or Hask in as their Heavy weapon instead, and that might work out a lot better for them, especially a range 5 sniper, now with steady. You could come out from behind LOS blocking terrain, shoot and then go back behind it, keep Veers or an Imperial Officer nearby to give them aims and you've got a pretty nasty unit, that only gets stronger if you can push into range 3 to get the rest of the squad in range.

They errated the range on the Ion to 3.

 

21 hours ago, Bigbboyd said:

I have found 1 or 2 squads being used with Flamer and Frag Grenade makes good objective grabbers so long as you aren't running long march. 

And recon intel!

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Lochlan said:

Among CIS players who made it to single eliminations in Season 5, more than half of them had vehicles. 8/14 (3 AAT lists, 5 STAPs lists [all with at least 2]).

9/20 Rebel lists had vehicles (8 AT-RT lists, one double Airspeeder)

3/9 Empire lists had vehicles (1 2xSpeeder Bikes, 1 AT-ST, 1 double Occupier), and there was one list with a broken link so I don't know what he had

2/20 GAR lists had vehicles (2 Saber lists)

Overall that's 22/63.  For GAR, ARCs are absolutely better than anything else at the moment, so that's pretty much all anyone will see from them for the moment, but the tank is still good so it will still get taken occasionally.  For Empire, their vehicle lists tend to be all-or-nothing—they either go all in on heavies or don't take them at all (other than the occasional speeder bikes).  For CIS and Rebels though, their good vehicles are staples of their armies and aren't going anywhere any time soon.

sure some of the losing lists ran vehicles. but the fact they lost supports the hypothesis that vehicles arnt that great. look at the winning lists almost none of them had vehicles. theyre almost all GAR lists that spam mk2s and arc troopers lmao

my own experience playing rebels is that vehicles arnt great either. the only vehicle I even use is the AT-RT because airspeeders are absolutely terrible. theyre expensive, way too fragile, have wonky firing arcs, and lack the firepower and keywords to deal with cover. many vehicles still need some help IMO especially older vehicles like the airspeeder. I cant for the life of me figure out why some dumb clone tank has outmaneuver but the airspeeder doesnt? why can that thing do barrel rolls but the airspeeder cant? it makes no sense. cover is an absolutely useless keyword for the airspeeder. it needs outmaneuver and a free dodge token each turn instead. that would make way more sense for a rebel vehicle.

 

 

Edited by Khobai

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3 hours ago, Qwar said:

Courage 3? Why? They have a Courage base of 1.

Because having an Imperial Officer in the unit adds 1 courage and having the Hostage Token adds 1 courage. Thus 1+1+1=3

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Khobai said:

I cant for the life of me figure out why some dumb clone tank has outmaneuver but the airspeeder doesnt? why can that thing do barrel rolls but the airspeeder cant? it makes no sense. cover is an absolutely useless keyword for the airspeeder. it needs outmaneuver and a free dodge token each turn instead. that would make way more sense for a rebel vehicle.

Because the Airspeeder was released years before that keyword was invented. Besides, the Airspeeder's main flaw isn't that it isn't defensive enough, it's that it deals trivial damage for it's cost. It will kill 2 Stormtroopers per turn if they are in the open. That's it.

Also, Cover X is NOT an absolutely useless keyword for the Airspeeder. Since it was released that's been the only thing keeping it in the air versus a bunch of DLTs plinking at it from across the table.

Edited by arnoldrew

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7 hours ago, Khobai said:

. cover is an absolutely useless keyword for the airspeeder. it needs outmaneuver and a free dodge token each turn instead. that would make way more sense for a rebel vehicle.

 

 

How is cover useless , you do realise it removes hits that could be converted using critical,  impact and marksman.

 

Example 5 black with impact 3 need to roll 5 hits to get those 3 wounds on the airspeeder  with cover 2 even with natural crits in the pool. Eg 3 crits 2 hits the 2 hits get removed before impact, so unless they are lucky enough to roll 4 or more crits they are limited to 3, if they had impact 2 a roll of 4 or 5 is reduced to 2 unless you have a natural crits roll 3 hits and only 1 impact hit goes through how is that not good. Smaller dice pools get punished by cover barring sharpshooter of course  

This is not to say I think Airspeeder is a good unit, just that cover 2 is good on it.

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33 minutes ago, syrath said:

How is cover useless , you do realise it removes hits that could be converted using critical,  impact and marksman.

 

Example 5 black with impact 3 need to roll 5 hits to get those 3 wounds on the airspeeder  with cover 2 even with natural crits in the pool. Eg 3 crits 2 hits the 2 hits get removed before impact, so unless they are lucky enough to roll 4 or more crits they are limited to 3, if they had impact 2 a roll of 4 or 5 is reduced to 2 unless you have a natural crits roll 3 hits and only 1 impact hit goes through how is that not good. Smaller dice pools get punished by cover barring sharpshooter of course  

This is not to say I think Airspeeder is a good unit, just that cover 2 is good on it.

Critical and Marksman happen before cover.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, costi said:

Critical and Marksman happen before cover.

Do they?

Step.4 roll attack dice and apply surges, 

Step 5 apply dodge and cover 

Step.6 attacker gets to modify attack dice. 

So critical and marksman come after cover and while marksman can score a crit it now requires two dice to convert a miss to a crit if its been coverted. Critical works though but still gets applied after since cover doesn't remove surges. So cover does have an effect on Marksman since up to two hits are removed before marksman can be applied.

Weirdly though critical can get through dodge where someone who naturally surges to hit cannot which is what I alluded to earlier. Since a unit that surges to hit would get those hits removed 

 

edit -forget what I say about critical since it applies when applying surges. My point stands about marksman though. I'll leave the above as is for.clarity on case anyone responds pointing out my mistake here. Also for clarity cover also gets applied before impact does in case anyone didn't already realise from before, so  if dodge removed those hits then they don't get converted. Cover 2 is handy on the airspeeder , although less so against critical compared with impact.

Edited by syrath

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