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GenCon Top 8 - Fifth Trooper Blog

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10 minutes ago, Tirion said:

It's range 4 why do you need to move? 

- Because objetives don't capture themselves.

- Because short side deployments are as prevalent as long-side deployments.

- Because the rest of the unit gives a much needed boost to regular hits to convert to crits.

- Because cover rules.

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5 hours ago, Qwar said:

- Because objetives don't capture themselves.

- Because short side deployments are as prevalent as long-side deployments.

- Because the rest of the unit gives a much needed boost to regular hits to convert to crits.

- Because cover rules.

.... C'mon obviously you have the rest of your list.... We were talking about dealing with armor. Having a list do nothing but shoot at armor with a very strong dice pool isn't this crazy idea and prevent you from doing other things. Okay get in range 3..... I'm still failing to see how and weapon that does 1.5 hours through to a vehicle on it's own is bad. As you said their the rest of the squad in there. It's a very good anti weapon option is all I'm saying, but the group think online would pretend it doesn't exist.

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6 hours ago, Tirion said:

.... C'mon obviously you have the rest of your list.... We were talking about dealing with armor. Having a list do nothing but shoot at armor with a very strong dice pool isn't this crazy idea and prevent you from doing other things. Okay get in range 3..... I'm still failing to see how and weapon that does 1.5 hours through to a vehicle on it's own is bad. As you said their the rest of the squad in there. It's a very good anti weapon option is all I'm saying, but the group think online would pretend it doesn't exist.

It actually is bad. Even in an ideal situation where you don't have to move and the tank stays in the open the entire time, it takes 9 shots on average - so more than a game - to fnish off a tank. Without accounting for dodges/surges/repairs/returnfire. People don't pretend it doesn't exist, they tried it when the game was new. The same with ion weapons. What didn't work against AT-STs doesn't work against Sabers/AATs.

But I'll gladly accept beeing wrong if you bring such a list to a large tournament and show us how it's done 😉.

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Posted (edited)

I wonder how much vital assets has hurt the Imperial Gun Line. I do think that other factions have gotten stronger, but Vital Assets has a fair amount of objectives that require you to keep moving, throw those in a low bid deck with breakthrough and those gun lines can't stand at range 4 anymore, because the objectives will run away from them very quickly. Once they start having to move around a lot more they become more exposed as well, which means heavy hits from those AATs and fire supporting clones.

Edited by Nithorian

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Tirion said:

.... C'mon obviously you have the rest of your list.... We were talking about dealing with armor. Having a list do nothing but shoot at armor with a very strong dice pool isn't this crazy idea and prevent you from doing other things. Okay get in range 3..... I'm still failing to see how and weapon that does 1.5 hours through to a vehicle on it's own is bad. As you said their the rest of the squad in there. It's a very good anti weapon option is all I'm saying, but the group think online would pretend it doesn't exist.

 

Let's say I have 2 units with an HH-12, each dealing 1.5 wounds per turn at a cost similar the tank's (178 if you bring scopes + specialist, vs 170 base for the tank plus extras). The tank has 9 wounds, so that's 3 turns of both units shooting at it and not doing anything else. Meanwhile, the tank takes one shoot at one of your units on turn one, and there goes half the unit. Second turn, one of your units has evaporated. Now you're not looking into seeing it destroyed by turn 3, it's towards turn 4. Except the tank also attacks on turn 3 and reduces the effectivity of the remaining squad. Then in turn 4, if your squad attacks first (and remember that Dooku has Cunning), you MAYBE destroy the tank. And that all is assuming you bring two full squads costing 170 points just in case the opponent fields a tank. He doesn't? Well mate, better pack it up and try next time.

Do you think I haven't tried it? The only games I've lost in the last months are those were I started shooting a tank. Even if I actually managed to destroy it, I still lost sometimes, because time spent shooting a tank is time not spent shooting something else that would die faster and diminish the enemies rate of fire and activation count sooner, or capturing objectives.

It's not that the HH-12 is "bad". Is that shooting at armor is a bad idea because of how the game works right now, and the HH-12 doesn't make sense if you're not shooting at armor.

 

8 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

It actually is bad. Even in an ideal situation where you don't have to move and the tank stays in the open the entire time, it takes 9 shots on average - so more than a game - to fnish off a tank. Without accounting for dodges/surges/repairs/returnfire. People don't pretend it doesn't exist, they tried it when the game was new. The same with ion weapons. What didn't work against AT-STs doesn't work against Sabers/AATs.

But I'll gladly accept beeing wrong if you bring such a list to a large tournament and show us how it's done 😉.

 

Spot on.

 

5 hours ago, Nithorian said:

I wonder how much vital assets has hurt the Imperial Gun Line. I do think that other factions have gotten stronger, but Vital Assets has a fair amount of objectives that require you to keep moving, throw those in a low bid deck with breakthrough and those gun lines can't stand at range 4 anymore, because the objectives will run away from them very quickly. Once they start having to move around a lot more they become more exposed as well, which means heavy hits from those AATs and fire supporting clones.

Imperials have long missed the call to update the lists. It's almost cult-like the fixation on following a "more shores, more snipers, more mortars!" list-building doctrine. Like, jesus, do you even play this game? None of those units is good at all for capturing objectives. Even shoretroopers, which are regular infantry corps unit, are subpar because of the loss of coordinate if they move too much. I'm sure there was a time when Luke Cook and the likes won with such a list, but it's also true there some people who could bring their orks army and still win.

Edited by Qwar

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7 minutes ago, Qwar said:

Imperials have long missed the call to update the lists. It's almost cult-like the fixation on following a "more shores, more snipers, more mortars!" list-building doctrine. Like, jesus, do you even play this game? None of those units is good at all for capturing objectives. Even shoretroopers, which are regular infantry corps unit, are subpar because of the loss of coordinate if they move too much. I'm sure there was a time when Luke Cook and the likes won with such a list, but it's also true there some people who could bring their orks army and still win.

Well they were about locking down the opponent so they couldn't score objectives more than anything. So much suppression you can run units off the board, or at least stop them from taking 2 actions for two or sometimes three turns. Things have changed, that sort of thing just flat doesn't work on the droids, and with higher courage units as well as much faster and more mobile units, the gun line has slowly crumbled. Couple that with new objectives that actively punish you for standing still and just doing aim/shoot every turn and the Empire has a new identity crisis.

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Yeah I didn't intend to imply that it has never worked, that's why I wrote they needed to update, sorry if it wasn't too clear.

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28 minutes ago, Qwar said:

Imperials have long missed the call to update the lists. It's almost cult-like the fixation on following a "more shores, more snipers, more mortars!" list-building doctrine. Like, jesus, do you even play this game? None of those units is good at all for capturing objectives. Even shoretroopers, which are regular infantry corps unit, are subpar because of the loss of coordinate if they move too much. I'm sure there was a time when Luke Cook and the likes won with such a list, but it's also true there some people who could bring their orks army and still win.

 

19 minutes ago, Nithorian said:

Well they were about locking down the opponent so they couldn't score objectives more than anything. So much suppression you can run units off the board, or at least stop them from taking 2 actions for two or sometimes three turns. Things have changed, that sort of thing just flat doesn't work on the droids, and with higher courage units as well as much faster and more mobile units, the gun line has slowly crumbled. Couple that with new objectives that actively punish you for standing still and just doing aim/shoot every turn and the Empire has a new identity crisis.

The Imperials aren't adapting their tactics and strategies to the varied and changing methods of their enemies? And are losing because of it?

Sounds pretty on-theme for the faction. I don't see the problem.

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54 minutes ago, Qwar said:

 

Let's say I have 2 units with an HH-12, each dealing 1.5 wounds per turn at a cost similar the tank's (178 if you bring scopes + specialist, vs 170 base for the tank plus extras). The tank has 9 wounds, so that's 3 turns of both units shooting at it and not doing anything else. Meanwhile, the tank takes one shoot at one of your units on turn one, and there goes half the unit. Second turn, one of your units has evaporated. Now you're not looking into seeing it destroyed by turn 3, it's towards turn 4. Except the tank also attacks on turn 3 and reduces the effectivity of the remaining squad. Then in turn 4, if your squad attacks first (and remember that Dooku has Cunning), you MAYBE destroy the tank. And that all is assuming you bring two full squads costing 170 points just in case the opponent fields a tank. He doesn't? Well mate, better pack it up and try next time.

Do you think I haven't tried it? The only games I've lost in the last months are those were I started shooting a tank. Even if I actually managed to destroy it, I still lost sometimes, because time spent shooting a tank is time not spent shooting something else that would die faster and diminish the enemies rate of fire and activation count sooner, or capturing objectives.

It's not that the HH-12 is "bad". Is that shooting at armor is a bad idea because of how the game works right now, and the HH-12 doesn't make sense if you're not shooting at armor.

 

 

Spot on.

 

Imperials have long missed the call to update the lists. It's almost cult-like the fixation on following a "more shores, more snipers, more mortars!" list-building doctrine. Like, jesus, do you even play this game? None of those units is good at all for capturing objectives. Even shoretroopers, which are regular infantry corps unit, are subpar because of the loss of coordinate if they move too much. I'm sure there was a time when Luke Cook and the likes won with such a list, but it's also true there some people who could bring their orks army and still win.

Loosing coordinate is not a problem for the shores, it's a problem for the mortar ;)

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48 minutes ago, costi said:

Loosing coordinate is not a problem for the shores, it's a problem for the mortar ;)

You are paying the price of that keyword when you buy shoretroopers, not with the mortar.

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20 minutes ago, Qwar said:

You are paying the price of that keyword when you buy shoretroopers, not with the mortar.

Says who? Units are balanced within a faction as well, not just made in a vacuum. There's also the fact that you can't even take the mortar without also taking the Coordinate unit, so putting some of the cost on the mortar would not be totally unreasonable. It's pretty clear point costs are just made up by winging it and then playtesting and not based on some sort of grand formula, anyway.

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26 minutes ago, Qwar said:

You are paying the price of that keyword when you buy shoretroopers, not with the mortar.

So? 

You pay for atrack dice as well, but don't use them when you shoot at R4.

It's one of the tools they have, sometimes it's better to forget the mortar and go for the objective.

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27 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Says who? Units are balanced within a faction as well, not just made in a vacuum. There's also the fact that you can't even take the mortar without also taking the Coordinate unit, so putting some of the cost on the mortar would not be totally unreasonable. It's pretty clear point costs are just made up by winging it and then playtesting and not based on some sort of grand formula, anyway.

That's not entirely true someone reverse engineered the costs  so they knew how much it cost for a unit to have red save,  and how much it cost to have a black attack or a red attack. I'd say they use that to initially measure up the cost and now adjust the units cost based on performance

They even managed to figure a cost for keywords in amongst that. It's been a long time since anyone bothered as it was before the original points rebalance

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4 minutes ago, syrath said:

That's not entirely true someone reverse engineered the costs  so they knew how much it cost for a unit to have red save,  and how much it cost to have a black attack or a red attack. I'd say they use that to initially measure up the cost and now adjust the units cost based on performance

They even managed to figure a cost for keywords in amongst that. It's been a long time since anyone bothered as it was before the original points rebalance

Any way you could provide a source? The fact that they can knock dozens of points off of things and make other points adjustments makes me pretty dubious. IF it exists, it is a very rough estimation they just use to start playtesting and go from there.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, costi said:

So? 

You pay for atrack dice as well, but don't use them when you shoot at R4.

It's one of the tools they have, sometimes it's better to forget the mortar and go for the objective.

...yes, terrible example considering they are getting stepped on by doing that.

 

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

Says who? Units are balanced within a faction as well, not just made in a vacuum. There's also the fact that you can't even take the mortar without also taking the Coordinate unit, so putting some of the cost on the mortar would not be totally unreasonable. It's pretty clear point costs are just made up by winging it and then playtesting and not based on some sort of grand formula, anyway.

How about the fact that you can Coordinate an E-web and not even take a mortar on your list, while still making full use of the keyword?

Edited by Qwar

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4 minutes ago, Qwar said:

How about the fact that you can Coordinate an E-web and not even take a mortar on your list, while still making full use of the keyword?

How about it? I'd say it would be pretty fair given how E-Webs have always struggled to be competitively viable and still are struggling.

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3 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Any way you could provide a source? The fact that they can knock dozens of points off of things and make other points adjustments makes me pretty dubious. IF it exists, it is a very rough estimation they just use to start playtesting and go from there.

The source was this forum a long time ago, they essentially decided that for example a white attack dice =2-3 pts , etc from the costs of the Corp units + upgrades and heavies etc. Not an easy task. It's quite likely been busted now since at the time they hadn't revised prices.

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Posted (edited)

You do whatever you want. I ditched the shore+mortar meta half a year ago and never looked back. You can keep thinking that shores are just fine and empire lists are losing because somehow nobody has thought before that you can, in fact, move your shores to capture objectives.

 

[Insert that dog meme with the house in flames]

Edited by Qwar

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3 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

How about it? I'd say it would be pretty fair given how E-Webs have always struggled to be competitively viable and still are struggling.

Shores have coordinate: emplacement trooper, not coordinate: mortar ;)

They can coordinate e-webs.

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3 hours ago, Darth evil said:

who also move speed 1 and can't shoot after moving

That tracks. It didn't do the best job of stopping the Falcon from escaping Hoth. Too much time wasted moving and deploying.

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