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TheSharkJuggler

Destroyers are no good to me dead.

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4 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

What new rules and keywords would it have required?
 

Read your own post from less than 30 minutes ago. Regardless there are a multitude of gameplay and balance reasons why they should be vehicles, and it makes perfect sense logically anyway. Is it just that they happen to have legs? I'm really not even sure why they should be troopers any more than, say, an AT-ST. They act like vehicles, they interact with the battlefield like vehicles, etc.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

Read your own post from less than 30 minutes ago. Regardless there are a multitude of gameplay and balance reasons why they should be vehicles, and it makes perfect sense logically anyway. Is it just that they happen to have legs? I'm really not even sure why they should be troopers any more than, say, an AT-ST. They act like vehicles, they interact with the battlefield like vehicles, etc.

I mean, they act like troopers, and interact with the battlefield like troopers. They really don't behave like vehicles at all.c Unlike teh AtST, which only behaves like a vehicle.

As far as reading my own post, I suggested that creating special keywords to keep Droidekas from climbing or completing objectives was possible but probably wasn't necessary at all. But at least one of those keywords already exists (Grounded) and predates Droidekas anyway.

What are the "multitude of gameplay and balance reasons why they should be vehicles"? Other than "Separatists need something to fill the Support slot in their first wave"?

You don;t have to respond to any of this. None of it matters. but like Vlad3theImpaler, I also don't see why they  HAD to be vehicles. They could have very easily been troopers.

Edited by Jake the Hutt

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1 minute ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I mean, they act like troopers, and interact with the battlefield like troopers. They really don't behave like vehicles at all.c Unlike teh AtST, which only behaves like a vehicle.

As far as reading my own post, I suggested that creating special keywords to keep Droidekas from climbing or completing objectives was possible but probably wasn't necessary at all. But at least one of those keywords already exists (Grounded) and predates Droidekas anyway.

What are the "multitude of gameplay and balance reasons why they should be vehicles"? Other than "Separatists need something to fill the Support slot in their first wave"?

You don;t have to respond to any of this. None of it matters. but like Vlad3theImpaler, I also don't see why they  HAD to be vehicles. They could have very easily been troopers.

Well creating a bunch of new keywords to go just on them, to make them act like vehicles would have been a lot more work than just making them vehicles. They are also a hybrid unit anyway with their rolling mode certainly acting more vehicle like.

Then on top of that, they would be competing with B1s for Corp slots, and they would have never seen play if that were the case.

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38 minutes ago, Haslamm1 said:

Getting into theory now though... To my knowledge we have never seen them interact with their environment in that way (i.e. like an astro-mech does) in film, TV or books, which is ultimately what this game has to go off

 

32 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

That is true, It was meant as a real question, and not a challenge.

Not trying to pile on, this tangent just interested me. I really don’t think they do have the capability to open doors and such on their own, but I don't think they're designed to be on their own, or part of a main attack where operating in unfamiliar environments are a must.

I don’t recall seeing a single one at the Battle of Naboo, fighting the Gungans (though I'm not going to rewatch it just to be sure). We mostly see them in security roles. Either as bodyguards, or quickly available when a situation (usually ignited lightsabers) arises.

They're designed for use in friendly territory but are never operating on their own. If there's no functional need for a robot to have a feature, save costs by excluding it.

B1s and B2s are designed to act as soldiers, so they need to be able to interact and communicate. BXs are are designed for infiltration so they need to have higher intelligence and agility.

Droidekas are about intimidation and quick, overwhelming force. You can capture that with a simpler, specific design. Guns, targeting systems, shields, armor, and only basic command-oriented intelligence.

 

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11 minutes ago, Nithorian said:

Then on top of that, they would be competing with B1s for Corp slots, and they would have never seen play if that were the case

Not necessarily. There's nothing stopping them from maintaining the support rank and still be a droid trooper of some sort.  

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20 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I don’t recall seeing a single one at the Battle of Naboo

They are used at the battle of naboo.

Personally they should remain vehicles after reading the posts here I feel like it makes the most sense. But I would like it if they had a keyword that was something like "treat as a droid trooper for purposes of coordinate"

 

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31 minutes ago, Sekac said:

 

Not trying to pile on, this tangent just interested me. I really don’t think they do have the capability to open doors and such on their own, but I don't think they're designed to be on their own, or part of a main attack where operating in unfamiliar environments are a must.

I don’t recall seeing a single one at the Battle of Naboo, fighting the Gungans (though I'm not going to rewatch it just to be sure). We mostly see them in security roles. Either as bodyguards, or quickly available when a situation (usually ignited lightsabers) arises.

They're designed for use in friendly territory but are never operating on their own. If there's no functional need for a robot to have a feature, save costs by excluding it.

B1s and B2s are designed to act as soldiers, so they need to be able to interact and communicate. BXs are are designed for infiltration so they need to have higher intelligence and agility.

Droidekas are about intimidation and quick, overwhelming force. You can capture that with a simpler, specific design. Guns, targeting systems, shields, armor, and only basic command-oriented intelligence.

 

They were there

See the source image

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Posted (edited)

Looking at wookipedia it seems that later models had more powerful guns, but less power for their shields. Maybe some fun title/upgrade that removes shields/generator and gives surge-hit or use shields as surge tokens or aims.

Edited by jocke01

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2020 at 10:49 AM, lunitic501 said:

They are used at the battle of naboo.

Personally they should remain vehicles after reading the posts here I feel like it makes the most sense. But I would like it if they had a keyword that was something like "treat as a droid trooper for purposes of coordinate"

 

They could come out with a comms upgrade for vehicles that could do that.

Edited by Sekac

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15 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

I think it's themetically absolutely fine that a unit that has no hands and no voice can't pick up / open boxes, repair vaporators or push around hostages.

The only reason people complain about them being vehicle is because they can't score some objectives.

Not so.  I posted my original question without even thinking about objectives.  I was thinking about a) how they function on-screen, and b) how they interact with the coordinate and AI mechanics in-game.  

12 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

Creature Trooper would make even less sense than Vehicle.  I don't think there is a particularly good unit type for them, and vehicle is probably the least inappropriate type.

Emplacement trooper, perhaps.  

11 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Read your own post from less than 30 minutes ago. Regardless there are a multitude of gameplay and balance reasons why they should be vehicles, and it makes perfect sense logically anyway. Is it just that they happen to have legs? I'm really not even sure why they should be troopers any more than, say, an AT-ST. They act like vehicles, they interact with the battlefield like vehicles, etc.

An AT-ST is a vehicle operated by a pilot and gunner, whereas a droideka is an independent battle droid that cannot be used as a transport.  They definitely have different functionality in-universe.

11 hours ago, Nithorian said:

Well creating a bunch of new keywords to go just on them, to make them act like vehicles would have been a lot more work than just making them vehicles. They are also a hybrid unit anyway with their rolling mode certainly acting more vehicle like.

Then on top of that, they would be competing with B1s for Corp slots, and they would have never seen play if that were the case.

You lost me here.  I don't think a single person suggested making them corps units, and there's no rule that troopers have to be corps units or cannot be special forces, so why would they be put into that rank?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Not so.  I posted my original question without even thinking about objectives.  I was thinking about a) how they function on-screen, and b) how they interact with the coordinate and AI mechanics in-game.  

 

4 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Emplacement trooper, perhaps. 

So we are talking semantics here? I thought the topic was how to make Dekas viable. Making them emplacement troopers trades scoring on intercept transmission for not being able to displace or block path for troopers and being pinned down in melee.

I don't think that makes them better in the game ...

Edit: I overlooked better order control. Though the chain end will be heavily contested when BX hit the shelves later this month.

Edited by SailorMeni

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SailorMeni said:

 

So we are talking semantics here? I thought the topic was how to make Dekas viable. Making them emplacement troopers trades scoring on intercept transmission for not being able to displace or block path for troopers and being pinned down in melee.

I don't think that makes them better in the game ...

Edit: I overlooked better order control. Though the chain end will be heavily contested when BX hit the shelves later this month.

I wasn't saying being emplacement troopers would make them better or worse.  I was replying to the the comment saying, "Creature Trooper would make even less sense than Vehicle.  I don't think there is a particularly good unit type for them, and vehicle is probably the least inappropriate type."

Emplacement trooper was my best guess as to what the most "appropriate" unit type for them would be, that's all.

 

I think maybe you're conflating two different ongoing lines of discussion here.  One was the original question of how to make droidekas more effective.  The second was about what unit type was most appropriate for them based on theme and game mechanics.  That spun out of someone suggesting a change in unit type for effectiveness, to which I responded with a question about why they were designated as vehicles to begin with.  So the original topic was indeed about effectiveness, but the discussion about unit types was mostly about how they work thematically.

Edited by Vlad3theImpaler

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Honestly, I'm not qualified to discuss what is or isn't effective in this game at all, since I've only played one demo game before the pandemic hit and shut down gaming at my local store.  I've just been reading these threads to get a sense of the general metagame so that when I do finally get to start playing, I don't have as much catching up to do.  And the comment earlier about unit type reminded me that I'd been wondering about the reason for droidekas being designated as vehicles, so I figured I'd ask.  Sorry if that derailed things.  I did find the discussion helpful, though.

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If only there was a new commander they could introduce, that would theoretically cost 100ish points, making droidekas viable in a list, and had uttered the words “send in the droidekas!”.

Give him a command card that full reactivates their shields or allows them to shoot twice or something. Entourage possibly. 

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On 8/4/2020 at 6:37 PM, TheSharkJuggler said:

…That is a brilliant tactic...

Would you be able to use them at the tip of the spear then, instead of the flank, to provide covering fire and literal cover for your B1s while they advance? I've considered having B2s + HA take cover behind the Destroyers while they move up - with Blast, they'd ignore any cover the enemy would have, including the cover granted to them by your own 'Dekas. I doubt it's a particularly effective concept, but it seems fun to try out.

As noted by the OP, basically any unit when subjected to focused fire is going to melt.

If they are the toughest unit you have, sure, that might as well be the first contact, but in any case you should want to avoid them being exposed to too many units at once. 

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Posted (edited)

I'm curious if either of these builds would be at least somewhat viable, especially with the specific objectives and condition cards:

OBJECTIVES:

  • Bombing Run & Breakthrough

Their wheel mode allows Droidekas to excel at both of these.

 

  • Intercept the Transmissions & Key Positions

Droidekas can reliably push damage through cover with their reasonably strong dice pool, especially when combined with a surge from Aggressive Tactics and an aim from Linked Targeting Array; additionally, they can effectively zone out units with low courage by projecting a range 3 suppressive bubble. They are very durable against chip damage while in heavy cover with shields, even more so with dodge tokens, allowing them to tank and preserve the rest of your army.

 

CONDITIONS:

  • Fortified Positions

This is a very effective card in their deck because Droidekas receive heavy cover from barricades just like troopers. Set them up in advantageous position entrenched in heavy cover and they become near unkillable; using them early can boost their defense further with a dodge.

 

  • Hostile Environment & War Weary

Droidekas main claim to fame in the Droid army is their Suppressive keyword; suppression is nowhere near as detrimental to the CIS when compared to other factions, especially with the combination of perfect order control and Strict Orders.

 

  • Limited Visibility

This further boosts the strategy of rolling them up a flank, as they are fairly protected while they position themselves.

 

  • Rapid Reinforcements

Surprise! Two Destroyers just dropped in behind your army. Again, CIS armies tend to have perfect order control, especially early in the game, allowing you to control when to deploy the Droidekas so they're in relative safety.

 

  • Supply Drop

This should go without saying why this helps Droidekas.

 

LIST IDEAS:

Beyblade's Triadekas
790/800 (10 activations)
Commanders:
 - General Grievous (175): Aggressive Tactics (10), Strict Orders (5), Endurance (6), DT-57 "Annihilator" (12) = 208

Corps:
 - 4× Battle Droids (36): Battle Droid (6) = 168
 - Battle Droids (36): Battle Droid (6), Comms Relay (5) = 47
 - Battle Droids (36): Battle Droid (6), HQ Uplink (10) = 52

Support:
 - 3× Droidekas (100): Linked Targeting Array (5) = 315

• Trained In Your Jedi Arts, • Mechanized Incursion, •• Supreme Commander, •• Push, ••• Crush Them!, ••• Assault, •••• Standing Orders

 

Dook's Triadekas
794/800 (10 activations)
Commanders:
 - Count Dooku (205): Force Choke (5), Force Push (10), Saber Throw (5), Aggressive Tactics (10) = 235

Corps:
 - 3× Battle Droids (36): Battle Droid (6) = 126
 - 2× Battle Droids (36) = 72
 - Battle Droids (36): HQ Uplink (10) = 46

Support:
 - 3× Droidekas (100): Linked Targeting Array (5) = 315

• Fear, Surprise, Intimidation, • Mechanized Incursion, •• Double the Fall, •• Push, ••• You Disappoint Me, ••• Assault, •••• Standing Orders

Edited by TheSharkJuggler
I'm an idiot who can't read...

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46 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

@TheSharkJuggler are you talking hypothetical change of Droidekas to Emplacement Troopers? Because if not: Dekas can't score on Intercept the Transmission, can't drop as Rapid Reinforcement and can't pick up Supplies ...

...I'm an idiot who apparently can't read cards like Rapid Reinforcement... I'm aware that they can't score on Intercept, but they can hold the line so that the B1s can. I didn't mean to suggest that they're the ones picking up the Supplies, it just helps them and the army as a whole - would I rather bring back a B1 or a Droideka with the Arc Welder? A nearby B1 can use the Holoprojector to give them an order token.

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I get it, you try to make decent use of Dekas. Still I can't ignore the downsides of your strength analysis 🙁.

Even in an ideal world, where each Deka manages to zone out one unit from scoring, you still only have 7 scorerer which your opponent also has left. That is before we account for B1s being wiped out which happens very fast. The effort in making supplies usable for Dekas is very big. Sure you can make use of it, but your opponent whos entire army profits naturally from the supplies usually makes more use of it than you do, making it a bad pick imo. And in a month from now (fingers crossed), we get STAPs which are flat out better in bombing run and breakthrough while being much cheaper and having coordinate ...

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I talked about this with my third-grade son this morning and he did argue that Droidekas DO talk sometimes, supporting the idea that they are individuals and not vehicles.

However, I pointed out that they are very specialized droids to the point that they are probably more vehicle than functional individual. B-1s are ultimately really advanced troops capable of filling in for various roles that would otherwise be occupied by a living soldier. They can drive a vehicle, operate coms, communicate with captives, perform recon, etc. Magnaguards too have been known to pilot ships in addition to their specialized combat niche. I guess B2s don't do much other than their specialized function, but they seem more capable of moving within a humanoid world than Droideka -- which is ultimately more of an AI-piloted rapid-delivery gun pod IMO.

 

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4 minutes ago, Vomikronnoxis said:

I talked about this with my third-grade son this morning and he did argue that Droidekas DO talk sometimes, supporting the idea that they are individuals and not vehicles.

However, I pointed out that they are very specialized droids to the point that they are probably more vehicle than functional individual. B-1s are ultimately really advanced troops capable of filling in for various roles that would otherwise be occupied by a living soldier. They can drive a vehicle, operate coms, communicate with captives, perform recon, etc. Magnaguards too have been known to pilot ships in addition to their specialized combat niche. I guess B2s don't do much other than their specialized function, but they seem more capable of moving within a humanoid world than Droideka -- which is ultimately more of an AI-piloted rapid-delivery gun pod IMO.

 

Well it is because of what each unit was designed for. B1s were created to escort important people in the trade federation and protect cargo, so they needed to function in the same space as humanoids. Droidekas were there to call up when things got out of control because outside of a Jedi, there were little that they couldn't easily dispatch. This idea is also reinforced by their rolling mode, they are designed to be called in only when they are needed, so they can get where they need to fast, and then deploy as death bubbles.

The same holds true for Trade Federation vehicles adopted by the CIS, the AAT, STAP and MTT. They could be operated by humanoids because they needed to work in a humanoid environment. As a front line soldier the B1s are actually quite badly designed, especially when you consider what a droid can be, when looking at the later CIS models. Why would you give your droid troopers blasters enemies can pick up, when you can just attach them to their body? Well they solved that with the B2s. Why have vehicles manned by droids that the clones can steal and use against us? Fixed with later Tank models, not being operated but running off of their own AI. So when we see more CIS heavy's they will be droids, something like the Hellfire Droid or the Spider Droid.

Which means functionally, the Droidekas are in the same area as some of the Droid tanks, they just aren't big enough to be a heavy. I think it is likely we will see Crab Droids come later and they'll also be vehicles in the support slot.

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Posted (edited)

what does talking have to do with them not being vehicles?

have you ever seen knight rider? would you also argue KITT isnt a vehicle because he talks?

droidekas as vehicles makes perfect sense to me.

the problem isnt that droidekas are classified as vehicles, the problem is that vehicles just arnt very good because they cant take objectives. which is why you see nothing but trooper spam in competitive play.

vehicles not being able to take objectives in a game where winning requires taking objectives is the whole problem. they need to fix ALL vehicles. not make droidekas an exception.

The only thing droidekas specifically need is their points cost reduced to 85-90. 100 is too much.

Edited by Khobai

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