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TheSharkJuggler

Destroyers are no good to me dead.

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4 hours ago, Sekac said:

 If the Jedi/sith doesn't kill them, the last one shoots point blank, and then walks through, planting 3 supression tokens and leaving him exposed. 

FYI you cannot shoot at a mini that is in base contact with the Droidekas, they don't have a melee weapon.

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48 minutes ago, Mace Windu said:

FYI you cannot shoot at a mini that is in base contact with the Droidekas, they don't have a melee weapon.

That’s not how that works. Droideka are a vehicle unit. They cannot be engaged. Therefore the unit in base is free game. 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

That’s not how that works. Droideka are a vehicle unit. They cannot be engaged. Therefore the unit in base is free game. 

you seem to be missing the difference between "Melee" and being "Engaged", yes only trooper on trooper units are Engaged but all units are considered in melee if the bases are touching.

MELEE

Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee.

• If two trooper units are in a melee, those units are engaged.

Any unit type can be in a melee, but only troopers can be engaged.

• When a unit performs an attack against a unit that it is in a melee with, that attack is a melee attack. Melee attacks follow the same rules as ranged attacks with the following exceptions:

»» The attacker can use only weapons that have the melee icon.

 

So all minis (incluing Tanks etc) that are in base contact with an opponents mini are in melee, but not all are engaged. regardless of being engaged or not though if you are in melee you can only use Melee weapons, and the Droideka don't have any.

Edited by Mace Windu

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Ooh good point, so triple supression is off the table. 

At any rate, the issue for the Jedi is the same: assuming a 1 activation kill on droidekas is risky, impossible with a dodge (for the most part). If you succeed, you kill a squad half your points and are in no-man's-land. If you fail, the squad can must walk through the Jedi, supressing him, leaving him exposed, and can still shoot/supress something else.

It's just not an ideal use for a Jedi. Much better to use him to finish off even slightly wounded squads of droidekas because then it's nearly a sure thing. But that only becomes inefficient too. You're shooting through shields to wound something so a jedi who bypasses shields can finish it.

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2 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

you seem to be missing the difference between "Melee" and being "Engaged", yes only trooper on trooper units are Engaged but all units are considered in melee if the bases are touching.

MELEE

Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee.

• If two trooper units are in a melee, those units are engaged.

Any unit type can be in a melee, but only troopers can be engaged.

• When a unit performs an attack against a unit that it is in a melee with, that attack is a melee attack. Melee attacks follow the same rules as ranged attacks with the following exceptions:

»» The attacker can use only weapons that have the melee icon.

 

So all minis (incluing Tanks etc) that are in base contact with an opponents mini are in melee, but not all are engaged. regardless of being engaged or not though if you are in melee you can only use Melee weapons, and the Droideka don't have any.

The droidekas would have to move out of base contact.

But because neither unit is engaged, they can still be shot at from outside the melee.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, lologrelol said:

The droidekas would have to move out of base contact.

But because neither unit is engaged, they can still be shot at from outside the melee.

*le sigh* I KNEW there was a reason that I hadn't thought of @Sekac's previously mentioned strategy to throw 3 suppression down on a melee threat - it's illegal AF 😂 I don't know why that escaped me, I regularly use AT-RTs with both Rebels and Clones.

Edited by TheSharkJuggler

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I have given up on drodekas....  (i really wanted to make them work, they look so cool)

They are to slow, they die to easy, and they don't hit hard enough for the price point. They need a pretty big point drop to work.

My biggest issue is they are to **** slow, 1 speed move on that tiny base makes them very hard to engage with. and loosing a round of shooting on a 100pt unit is often a really bad idea to give them some speed. (i admit its pretty good on turn 1 often)

My next gripe is there guns are lack luster for there points again. they are missing something any of the following keywords would have made them much more useful. (or a surge to hit)
Critical 1
Relentless
Barrage (might be to strong, but really thematic... once they are in range you kill them or back off or they will wreck you.)
 

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7 hours ago, TheSharkJuggler said:

*le sigh* I KNEW there was a reason that I hadn't thought of @Sekac's previously mentioned strategy to throw 3 suppression down on a melee threat - it's illegal AF 😂 I don't know why that escaped me, I regularly use AT-RTs with both Rebels and Clones.

The only relevant rules I could find were:

16.
"There are two types of attacks: ranged and melee.
» During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons that have a blue range (󲉬, 󲉭, 󲉮, 󲉯, 󲖀, 󲉰) icon."

40.
"While a trooper unit is in a melee with another trooper unit, those units are engaged. A unit that is engaged cannot perform moves, cannot be displaced, cannot perform ranged attacks, and cannot be targeted by ranged attacks, except from area weapons."

52
"Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee. • If two trooper units are in a melee, those units are engaged. Any unit type can be in a melee, but only troopers can be engaged. • When a unit performs an attack against a unit that it is in a melee with, that attack is a melee attack. "

I think you can target a unit in melee from outside it using ranged attacks, so long as those units are not 'engaged'.

With the way FFG have 10 rules for every one situation in this game, I honestly am not sure exactly how to interpret those rules. But I think my above assumption is probably correct.

 

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2 hours ago, lologrelol said:

The only relevant rules I could find were:

16.
"There are two types of attacks: ranged and melee.
» During a ranged attack, the attacker and defender are not in a melee, and the attacker can use only weapons that have a blue range (󲉬, 󲉭, 󲉮, 󲉯, 󲖀, 󲉰) icon."

40.
"While a trooper unit is in a melee with another trooper unit, those units are engaged. A unit that is engaged cannot perform moves, cannot be displaced, cannot perform ranged attacks, and cannot be targeted by ranged attacks, except from area weapons."

52
"Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee. • If two trooper units are in a melee, those units are engaged. Any unit type can be in a melee, but only troopers can be engaged. • When a unit performs an attack against a unit that it is in a melee with, that attack is a melee attack. "

I think you can target a unit in melee from outside it using ranged attacks, so long as those units are not 'engaged'.

With the way FFG have 10 rules for every one situation in this game, I honestly am not sure exactly how to interpret those rules. But I think my above assumption is probably correct.

 

He already posted the answer. Page 52, under melee. If you are in melee (NOT ENGAGED), you can only use weapons with the melee range symbol.

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2 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

He already posted the answer. Page 52, under melee. If you are in melee (NOT ENGAGED), you can only use weapons with the melee range symbol.


I also see page 16 answered that.

"the attacker and defender are not in a melee"

So even if a unit is in base contact with a vehicle, the two units still count as being in a melee, and so cannot be targeted by the ranged attacks of other units outside the melee?

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45 minutes ago, lologrelol said:


I also see page 16 answered that.

"the attacker and defender are not in a melee"

So even if a unit is in base contact with a vehicle, the two units still count as being in a melee, and so cannot be targeted by the ranged attacks of other units outside the melee?

You're confusing "in melee" with Engaged. The last sentence you posted only applies to units that are Engaged, which is when a Trooper unit is in melee with another Trooper unit.

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Posted (edited)

Essentially "in melee" is synonymous with "in base contact" and means you cannot use ranged attacks.

"Engaged" is a specifically trooper vs. trooper scenario where you must withdraw to leave base contact, may not be shot at while engaged, and happens to also be "in melee".

I had the same confusion when getting excited about AI: shoot/move for 3 suppression. Not possible, as it turns out. So either reverse/shoot=2 suppression, or move thru/do something else for 1 suppression. 

 

Edited by Sekac

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On 8/4/2020 at 12:21 PM, KarlVonCarstein said:

What about if ffg erratad their unit type from vehicles to emplacement droid troopers? I know thats a long shot that probably won't happen, but it would fix the synergy issue with the rest of the army.

Why are they vehicles as printed anyway?  I never did figure out why they had that designation to begin with.

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Side question:

I'm getting ready to play Separatists for the first time. I notice that Droidekas only have Generator 1. Is that they only way they can get back shield Tokens? I thought a Recover action would also allow them to restore full shields, but apparently not?

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2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Why are they vehicles as printed anyway?  I never did figure out why they had that designation to begin with.

I think that's the little gear symbol?

But yeah, they probably should have had a new designation, like "Big Trooper", or something.

Honestly I feel all emplacement/creature troopers should just be simplified down to "Big Trooper" or something.

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3 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Why are they vehicles as printed anyway?  I never did figure out why they had that designation to begin with.

Because that's the best designation for them? It makes sense to me. I guess I could see an argument for Emplacement Trooper, but vehicle seem like the best match.

2 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Side question:

I'm getting ready to play Separatists for the first time. I notice that Droidekas only have Generator 1. Is that they only way they can get back shield Tokens? I thought a Recover action would also allow them to restore full shields, but apparently not?

You can recover shield tokens with a Recover action only if you have the Recharge X ability. For a while the only ways to get shield tokens also came with the Recharge X ability, so a lot of people got the ability mixed up into being an integral part of how shields work.

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On ‎04‎.‎08‎.‎2020 at 8:00 PM, Sekac said:

I like Droidekas despite them being overcosted. I find they work best if you max them out though.

I disagree with this. With 3 squads of droidekas, 6 supression tokens a turn is nothing to sneeze at. B1s with E5c can pretty reliably put another down per squad, and both Grievous and Dooku have cards that let them throw extra supression around.

You can pretty consistently put 10-12 supression tokens down per turn. I've won a few games just from putting down this much suppression turn in and turn out.

Droidekas especially shine as flankers. There's less likely to be heavy return fire on the flanks, and the enemy commander is less likely to extend his courage value to the flanks. This means droidekas are good at turning back your opponent's flanking elements as they get suppressed or chased off while unsupported. From there, you can maneuver them into positions of overlapping fire covering the mid-board.

Build your plan and the rest of your list around never needing to issue these guys orders. As mentioned, they don't synergize well. Instead, focus on getting orders onto everything else, so there's just the 3 droideka tokens in your bag.

1 squad doesn't really amount to much. 3 squads are enough to force your opponent to pay attention to them (instead of the stuff that matters).

Now this idea got me thinking... Once we make it to 2021 and the new Tactical Droid hits the streets, this suddenly looks very feasible. TD will have a command card at least that lends to Destroyer and main gunline synergy at 1 pip. Besides, combine 3 sets of D's with Cad Banes f***ery and electro Gauntlets, and a gunline which has a couple of HQ uplinks, and a Commando strike force, suddenly you are serving suppressions and immobilize for breakfasts, and some pretty lethal components and red dice damage, and then a highly mobile Bane. All this designed to suppress and harass your opponents force into ineffectiveness. Your mediocre synergy wont matter if your opponent has none at all

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2 hours ago, Haslamm1 said:

 

Now this idea got me thinking... Once we make it to 2021 and the new Tactical Droid hits the streets, this suddenly looks very feasible. TD will have a command card at least that lends to Destroyer and main gunline synergy at 1 pip. Besides, combine 3 sets of D's with Cad Banes f***ery and electro Gauntlets, and a gunline which has a couple of HQ uplinks, and a Commando strike force, suddenly you are serving suppressions and immobilize for breakfasts, and some pretty lethal components and red dice damage, and then a highly mobile Bane. All this designed to suppress and harass your opponents force into ineffectiveness. Your mediocre synergy wont matter if your opponent has none at all

True, or I can run two AAT's and just kill everything on my opponents side instead.

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26 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

True, or I can run two AAT's and just kill everything on my opponents side instead.

Then do that. Sounds like an unbeatable strategy.

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3 hours ago, Sekac said:

Then do that. Sounds like an unbeatable strategy.

You missed the point. A T-Series will not help Droideka's as is because there are better options out there. If Droideka's get a points reduction of 10-20 (15 feels right to me), they will actually become competitive in the support slot. I have three Droideka units myself, and I would love for them to be competitive, but its just not viable at 100 points a unit.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Icelom said:

I have given up on drodekas....  (i really wanted to make them work, they look so cool)

They are to slow, they die to easy, and they don't hit hard enough for the price point. They need a pretty big point drop to work.

My biggest issue is they are to **** slow, 1 speed move on that tiny base makes them very hard to engage with. and loosing a round of shooting on a 100pt unit is often a really bad idea to give them some speed. (i admit its pretty good on turn 1 often)

My next gripe is there guns are lack luster for there points again. they are missing something any of the following keywords would have made them much more useful. (or a surge to hit)
Critical 1
Relentless
Barrage (might be to strong, but really thematic... once they are in range you kill them or back off or they will wreck you.)
 

Yeah I think they aren't as bad as people think but the guns feel a bit lackluster for the same reason the airspeeders guns is. Since no surge-hit, you really want surge tokens and aims, but you have a hard time to get orders on them. They do just a little bit more dmg on average than a full b1 squad + standard heavy, suppressive is fun of course. Even if you get orders on them they often need to move in order to fire. However a 10-15 points drop of or synergy with some new commander/unit would be nice.

Edited by jocke01

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1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

You missed the point. A T-Series will not help Droideka's as is because there are better options out there. If Droideka's get a points reduction of 10-20 (15 feels right to me), they will actually become competitive in the support slot. I have three Droideka units myself, and I would love for them to be competitive, but its just not viable at 100 points a unit.

No, I didn't miss the point. I didn't miss it any of the times you made it. 

If you've already decided (for perfectly legitimate reasons) not to use droidekas, and nobody is seriously disputing they're overcosted, then what do you hope to accomplish by continuing to point out they're overpriced and prefer other things?

We can't change that, we can only try to figure out how best to use them in spite of their inefficiency. The tactics we're tossing around (the legal ones anyway) will still have value down the road if FFG does adjust their cost. 

On the other hand, comments that boil down to "I don't like them, they're too expensive" won't hold any value at all if their cost changes. You've made that point, so have others, and y'all are absolutely right. 

You can't get righter by repeating it. You can't further the discussion by repeating it. So what is the goal at this point?

You can try to contribute/gain some useable tactical insight, or grouch about their cost more, your choice.

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5 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

True, or I can run two AAT's and just kill everything on my opponents side instead.

I mean yes thats certainly one way to go about it! 😂

I'll realistically have to try running 3 destroyers before I defend the strategy too much, but in my head the tactical suppression (if played right) is more of a surgical removal of the opponents operations, instead of the unsubtle blunt trauma of near 400pts worth of AAT.

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