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TheSharkJuggler

Destroyers are no good to me dead.

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Is there any way to make 'Dekas worth it? They are one of my favorite units in the prequel trilogy.

I know the consensus is they're overcosted and surprisingly fragile - I learned the latter HARD the first time I played them. I mistakenly believed that they were more resilient until I watched a Shoretrooper gunline shoot them to pieces. Given, I made a major tactical error: I pushed them forward too fast while I was trying to use them to flank. My opponent simply obliterated them with his Shoresy's before my main force even arrived.


They don't seem to gel with any other Separatist unit particularly well: they can't benefit directly from Coordinate: Trooper because they're vehicles, though Comms Relay can work around that, and there are currently no command cards that benefit them in any significant way. The combination of the aforementioned points reduce their offensive output: not receiving an order prevents them from receiving a free aim token from Linked Targeting Array or a surge token from Aggressive Tactics, while AI: Attack, Move prohibits them from performing an aim action before attacking. Suppressive is a great keyword, but from what I can tell, the Separatists don't have enough ways to dish out enough suppression tokens to make it an effective strategy. The final nail in the coffin is that more recent units seem to perform similar functions more effectively.

Their weapon is fairly reliable, but it is comparable to the STAP Riders. STAPs contend for the same Support slot; are far cheaper than Destroyers; Coordinate: Droid Trooper, Vehicle allows them to be far more harmonious with droid armies and their complete activation control; furthermore, Coordinate increases the likelihood that they will receive orders, allowing them to trigger LTA more often and potentially gain a surge token from Aggressive Tactics.

BX Commando Droids are incredibly mobile and far more flexible in their builds; they are more potent objective holders with Deflector Shields, especially with a saboteur or sniper; Vibroswords permit them to be a significant melee threat and tarpit; finally, sniper strike teams are simultaneously a cheap activation and long range threat.


From what I can tell, only 2 command cards are somewhat meaningful:

"You Disappoint Me" allows two 'Dekas to gain a free dodge and a potential aim, if they also have Linked Targeting Array. You could use Battle Meditation if you REALLY want to give a third unit an order, but that effectively amounts to a waste of a precious Force slot and 5 points due to the discord between Battle Meditation and Dooku's other command cards, not to mention his playstyle.

"Supreme Commander" permits the 'Dekas to push off wounds onto B1s (presumably) for one turn. I'd gladly chance losing 2 6-point models to protect my more expensive units; however, this seems incongruous with the advice I've seen on using Destroyers, namely that they should be used to flank. "Supreme Commander" also doesn't give them orders, again preventing them from benefiting from LTA or Tactics.


I don't see much from the spoilers of the upcoming release that help them out much. Sure, a B1 unit with a Portable Scanner could give them a dodge every turn to increase their defensive capabilities; however, I doubt that's a worthwhile strategy considering that Electrobinoculars have been out forever and I'm unaware of anyone using them to give the more potent aim token to the 'Dekas. Using a B1 with Comms Relay to trigger LTA may help slightly, but that is a minimum of 10 points for 1 aim token a turn. "Mechanized Incursion" doesn't really do a whole lot for them, specifically because I really only see them run in pairs.


TLDR: is there any way to make the Droidekas a remotely viable unit?
 

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@TheSharkJuggler You got it mostly right. Only it's even worse: Dekas can't benefit from "Supreme Commander" because they are vehicles and therefore can't be guardianed. Which brings us to another drawback: as vehicles Dekas can't score on many objectives ...

Right now I take them because it's literally the only way to get past 8 activations. But that will change very soon when BX hit the shelves. A points drop might help, but unless they get even cheaper than STAPs, I don't see much chance 😔

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I agree with what you bring up. They are not bad as a unit, however they don't gain anything from the droids coordinate chain nor have much to gain from command cards or coms upgrade.

Shields are very strong If they can attack a flank and only get shot from 1-2 units, otherwise they crumble pretty fast. I think we just gonna have to hope for a point reduction sadly.

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11 minutes ago, TIE wing said:

is it just me or are the first few vehicles released for each faction seem always a bit overpriced?

Not sure if they are overpriced. They seems to be overpriced only because the meta.

Imperial bikes are very good when well handled. But imperial players do prefer gunlines. Same for the barc, x-34,t-47... Synergy with commanders and commanders cards are lower compare to trooper. But if you take each unit aside point values are good.

Rebels walkers with flamers are great because troopers are flooding everywhere on the table. But I do think the original cost was ok when played against not so optimized army lists

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4 hours ago, Krakus said:

Not sure if they are overpriced. They seems to be overpriced only because the meta.

Imperial bikes are very good when well handled. But imperial players do prefer gunlines. Same for the barc, x-34,t-47... Synergy with commanders and commanders cards are lower compare to trooper. But if you take each unit aside point values are good.

Rebels walkers with flamers are great because troopers are flooding everywhere on the table. But I do think the original cost was ok when played against not so optimized army lists

don't know that I agree with this entirely. The X34 or T47 have never had the resilience or firepower to justify their cost.

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31 minutes ago, smickletz said:

Since they don’t want to errata cards as much as possible, lowering points seems the most likely fix. 

Another option which they tend to prefer, is something that can be changed in the RRG.  In this case, they could potentially change the rules for shields to improve them, though that would affect other units as well.  A small change I would like to see is if Generator allowed you to flip a shield token on a recover action, like with Recharge.  I have had many times where I had to attack first with a Droideka due to AI and didn't have anything to spend my second action on.

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2 minutes ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

What about if ffg erratad their unit type from vehicles to emplacement droid troopers? I know thats a long shot that probably won't happen, but it would fix the synergy issue with the rest of the army.

That would be really awesome and a fairly simple fix.

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Unfortunately they just don't have synergy with the CIS.  You need a cheap commander card to make them remotely viable like say Nute Gunray.  IMO the issue isn't their defense abilities at all, nor their guns.  They are a unit that has to commit to a fight which means you need to be able to move them into the fight correctly and have activation control.  When you go to commit them, they have a speed one move and the AI problem but the bigger problem is right now you want to protect a bigger piece like Grievous.  

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This point change will be very interesting. They made clear that only the first points change would be their only big one, but a lot has changed since that statement.

Also can't wait to see if they keep trying to change RRG instead of going with just points themselves. Seems like it would be eaiser to just change points?

 

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I like Droidekas despite them being overcosted. I find they work best if you max them out though.

15 hours ago, TheSharkJuggler said:

Suppressive is a great keyword, but from what I can tell, the Separatists don't have enough ways to dish out enough suppression tokens to make it an effective strategy.

I disagree with this. With 3 squads of droidekas, 6 supression tokens a turn is nothing to sneeze at. B1s with E5c can pretty reliably put another down per squad, and both Grievous and Dooku have cards that let them throw extra supression around.

You can pretty consistently put 10-12 supression tokens down per turn. I've won a few games just from putting down this much suppression turn in and turn out.

Droidekas especially shine as flankers. There's less likely to be heavy return fire on the flanks, and the enemy commander is less likely to extend his courage value to the flanks. This means droidekas are good at turning back your opponent's flanking elements as they get suppressed or chased off while unsupported. From there, you can maneuver them into positions of overlapping fire covering the mid-board.

Build your plan and the rest of your list around never needing to issue these guys orders. As mentioned, they don't synergize well. Instead, focus on getting orders onto everything else, so there's just the 3 droideka tokens in your bag.

1 squad doesn't really amount to much. 3 squads are enough to force your opponent to pay attention to them (instead of the stuff that matters).

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2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I like Droidekas despite them being overcosted. I find they work best if you max them out though.

I disagree with this. With 3 squads of droidekas, 6 supression tokens a turn is nothing to sneeze at. B1s with E5c can pretty reliably put another down per squad, and both Grievous and Dooku have cards that let them throw extra supression around.

You can pretty consistently put 10-12 supression tokens down per turn. I've won a few games just from putting down this much suppression turn in and turn out.

Droidekas especially shine as flankers. There's less likely to be heavy return fire on the flanks, and the enemy commander is less likely to extend his courage value to the flanks. This means droidekas are good at turning back your opponent's flanking elements as they get suppressed or chased off while unsupported. From there, you can maneuver them into positions of overlapping fire covering the mid-board.

Build your plan and the rest of your list around never needing to issue these guys orders. As mentioned, they don't synergize well. Instead, focus on getting orders onto everything else, so there's just the 3 droideka tokens in your bag.

1 squad doesn't really amount to much. 3 squads are enough to force your opponent to pay attention to them (instead of the stuff that matters).

And therein lies the problem. You're paying 300 points for three activations, plus you're sinking another 208 for Grievous or 240 for Dooku with upgrades. So you only have four activations with less than 300 points left to add corps units.

For their current cost, Droidekas are too slow for me. Sure your can wheel mode them to get them up the board, but unless you have a big piece of terrain to park them behind which can block LOS, your opponent gets a chance to hit them (albeit in heavy cover) without shields. Once they are in range they can do some damage, but anything with a lightsaber is going to take down a unit of droideka a turn as the shields don't work in close combat.

Once STAPs come out, why would I even take Droidekas at 100 points? Sure I'm trading some survivability, but STAPs (with a stapled on 2 point upgrade) will be able to chain orders like the rest of the army, and they are far more mobile.

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I feel like Droidekas are almost good. They seem a little expensive considering some of the other units coming up. That said my dekkas usually last a pretty long time and I can usually  save them for punishing squads that dare to target my B1s instead.

I think they're close. If they were just a bit more survivable I think they'd be good to go.

Maybe boost them to Generator 2 and give them Recharge 2 ?

(It kinda struck me as odd that it was so easy to burst their shields in game when every time I see them on screen people act like once the shield is up they're never getting through them. )

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Posted (edited)

Like many have said they just don't synergies well with other units atm. For the same points that gives you 2 droidekas units, you can get a upgraded AAT that can help with coordinate chain, or soon 2-3 commando droids squad/strike teams that work better with command cards and can be coordinated. A point decrease can help, otherwise we need something that works well with them.

Edited by jocke01

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Keep them 100 points and give them Generator 4 so they are tough if not focused but crumble to a single focused turn like they do now, I think this would honestly be the best option if they are trying to prevent droids from having 16 effective activation's and also give them a very distinct feel that matches more there power that we see on screen.

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Posted (edited)

 

10 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

And therein lies the problem. You're paying 300 points for three activations, plus you're sinking another 208 for Grievous or 240 for Dooku with upgrades. So you only have four activations with less than 300 points left to add corps units.

You're not wrong on your math, but the conclusion is: since 100 points per activation is the best exchange we have access to outside of core, this list, therefore, provides the most amount of activations we can currently field--10 (though I run it at 9, with 5 B1s with upgrades).

 That'll change once we get more units, but the way you phrased it implies the list has fewer activations than other CIS lists when it, in fact, has the most. 

10 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

For their current cost, Droidekas are too slow for me. Sure your can wheel mode them to get them up the board, but unless you have a big piece of terrain to park them behind which can block LOS, your opponent gets a chance to hit them (albeit in heavy cover) without shields.

That definitely is a risk, but since this list has more activations than most CIS lists, it can sandbag a little better. B1s and your chosen leader are unlikely to do too much on turn 1, so you'll usually have 6 activations you can do before you start moving droidekas. So wait as long as possible and then wheel into position with less fear of reprisal. 

10 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

Once they are in range they can do some damage, but anything with a lightsaber is going to take down a unit of droideka a turn as the shields don't work in close combat.

Mathematically, it's not terribly likely. It assumes the lightsaber is going to hit with at least 6 hits every time they attack. White dice with S->B would block 2 and those 2 would be pierced away for 6 wounds, killing the unit. If the lightsaber wielder is consistently rolling perfect or near perfect (depending on the character) and I never roll above average, then they can count on killing a squad a turn. So it's basically a coin toss. 

The trick is if they fail, they don't put you in the usual position of "what does my squad do now?" Usually, after getting bloodied but not killed, you've got to decide whether you want to withdraw or keep the saber locked and make him waste another activation finishing the squad. Since Droidekas are vehicles, charging them is an all-or-nothing ploy. If the Jedi/sith doesn't kill them, the last one shoots point blank, and then walks through, planting 3 supression tokens and leaving him exposed. 

It's why I'll often shoot/dodge when under AI protocols. A lightsaber wielder won't kill them, even with assumed perfect rolls, and otherwise they just become so inefficient to kill with shooting. Getting them into heavy cover isn't hard, and if you dodge, that means a healthy unit can take around 10 hits before there's any drop off of firepower (4 shields, 2 cover, 1 dodge, 1/3 saves, 2 ablative wounds). Then if you think of regeration/dodge as +2 HP per turn, and heavy cover as +2 HP per unit shooting at them, you can see how they just drag the efficiency of the enemy army down.

3 squads are nigh impossible to kill. The supression starts mounting, robbing people of actions. They only manage to do 2 wounds and don't even take a model off the table, they waste their turn recovering, etc. 

So much of Legion is about the rhythm and timing of the game unfolding. Droidekas, especially 3 of them, do a lot to disrupt that timing. 

All that said, they still are over-costed. Pricing units like this is always tricky. Not only because they're vehicles, and the value of that is subject to fluctuate as the meta evolves, but just because units that have this either/or style are tough to price correctly. A unit that can be either fast and fragile with no damage output, or slow and tough with supressive fire is hard to play exactly right and therefore hard to price right.

I take them because I love droidekas and there isn't much else to use. But I think I've learned pretty well how to try to wring every drop of value out of them. Sometimes I get 100 drops, sometimes I don't. But with 3 squads, it feels like I get more out of each one.

Once BXs and STAPs come out though, my heart will be shelved until something changes.

Edited by Sekac

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10 minutes ago, Sekac said:

The trick is if they fail, they don't put you in the usual position of "what does my squad do now?" Usually, after getting bloodied but not killed, you've got to decide whether you want to withdraw or keep the saber locked and make him waste another activation finishing the squad. Since Droidekas are vehicles, charging them is an all-or-nothing ploy. If the Jedi/Sith doesn't kill them, the last one shoots point blank, and then walks through, planting 3 suppression tokens and leaving him exposed.

…That is a brilliant tactic...

11 minutes ago, Sekac said:

It's why I'll often shoot/dodge when under AI protocols. A lightsaber wielder won't kill them, even with assumed perfect rolls, and otherwise they just become so inefficient to kill with shooting. Getting them into heavy cover isn't hard, and if you dodge, that means a healthy unit can take around 10 hits before there's any drop off of firepower (4 shields, 2 cover, 1 dodge, 1/3 saves, 2 ablative wounds). Then if you think of regeneration/dodge as +2 HP per turn, and heavy cover as +2 HP per unit shooting at them, you can see how they just drag the efficiency of the enemy army down.

3 squads are nigh impossible to kill. The suppression starts mounting, robbing people of actions. They only manage to do 2 wounds and don't even take a model off the table, they waste their turn recovering, etc. 

So much of Legion is about the rhythm and timing of the game unfolding. Droidekas, especially 3 of them, do a lot to disrupt that timing. 

Would you be able to use them at the tip of the spear then, instead of the flank, to provide covering fire and literal cover for your B1s while they advance? I've considered having B2s + HA take cover behind the Destroyers while they move up - with Blast, they'd ignore any cover the enemy would have, including the cover granted to them by your own 'Dekas. I doubt it's a particularly effective concept, but it seems fun to try out.

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28 minutes ago, TheSharkJuggler said:

…That is a brilliant tactic...

Would you be able to use them at the tip of the spear then, instead of the flank, to provide covering fire and literal cover for your B1s while they advance? I've considered having B2s + HA take cover behind the Destroyers while they move up - with Blast, they'd ignore any cover the enemy would have, including the cover granted to them by your own 'Dekas. I doubt it's a particularly effective concept, but it seems fun to try out.

That's the kind of tactic I don't employ often, but it's great as a combination with "cycling out" squads.

Say you have one squad in the midfield that is getting beat up. Shields down and wounds piling up. That's a good time to recklessly expose a fresh unit. The opponent has to choose to keep focus on the wounded unit in heavy cover, or get more bang for their buck switching fire to the one standing lugnuts-in-the-wind. 

If they choose to try to eliminate an activatation, your spearthrust can hit harder. Situational, but could work.

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Theres nothing wrong with droidekas aside from their points cost being a little too high. At 100 points taking them eats into your activation count way too much. They need to be more like 85-90 points.

 

 

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