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ZaZ333

About the production of FFG in China.

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3 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Can you please point to where you've been attacked? Geez man. 

Well, that part:

4 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Are you familiar with the meme, where spongebob is destroying a clock, and squidward opens a closet and there are thousands of clocks all in neat little rows?

FFG producing goods in China isn't even a clock

You are saying an attempt to push FFG in the right direction isn't worth the effort due to the scale of the problem elsewhere?

For those who are participating in this thread, that's an attack on their position, since they clearly feel it is worth the effort to bring this to FFG's attention (literally the OP).

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1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

@xanderf Tooka pointed out why she doesnt believe that US based companies are necessarily better. Quit arguing for "good over perfect" when Tooka has stated why she doesnt think its good. 

Regardless of being "better," those of us in the States theoretically have a little more ability to even try to push for change in our own country.

Both viewpoints hold truth:

"Don't act like China is the root of the problem when US manufacturing practices are also immoral."

and

"Let's take this immoral practice we're contributing to and add it to the massive pile in our own backyard to hopefully fight it there."

 

Or maybe I've misunderstood.

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7 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Okay, so you'll agree to boycott "Made in America" goods too? After all, we have concentration camps where thousands and thousands of children have vanished, police teargassing journalists and peaceful protesters, a massive prison population used as forced labor, etc. 

Some random Chinese company that makes injected plastic minis isn't the Chinese Government. Just like a US widget company isn't the US government. 

Also, the reality of the situation is that the US and China's economic interests are tied together due to global capitalism and you really can't hurt the Chinese economy without hurting the US economy.

I don't think you know very much about China.  It's not like America.  The Chinese Communist Party runs everything.  Everything.  They choose what you read, what you see, what you hear.   People are so afraid of saying what they think that they use code-words to say the things they're forbidden from saying.    Every large company is, at some level, an arm of the state.  The company FFG uses will have Party workers running it who report back to CCHQ, just like every company does.  Most global corporates don't care, which is a mistake.  Others will openly back the CCP in order so secure more profits.  HSBC and Standard Chartered Bank last week backed the CCP against the Hong Kong protestors, so that they could keep their businesses operating in China. 

 

You claim that America has 'concentration camps'.  Well, that is a loaded word because it draws comparisons with the Soviet Gulags and the Nazi camps like Dachau.  I notice that one of your more - ahem - left-field politicians used that inflammatory term to describe them.  They are not like the Gulags.  You should read about the Gulags and what happened in them before you compare what's happening in America to them.  Did you know you could get sent to the Gulag for 10 years for reading the wrong book?  What you have a system for securing some of the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who are pouring in to the country.  What is the alternative?  Open the borders?  Some people will say yes, and some no, depending upon their points of view.  One side will be righter than the other.  Trump was elected because the people who like open borders have had them very open for a long time, and the people who don't like open borders don't feel that they've been listened to.  This is what closing the borders looks like. 

 

I know that the American prison system isn't working and I agree that it is a problem.  It isn't comparable to what happens in China.  Not in the least.  Chinese prisoners have no rights, and if they're political prisoners (which you can become by wearing a t-shirt with the wrong slogan) they won't have had a trial.  Their families will have no idea where they are, or if they're alive or dead.  The families will be under close surveillance for years afterwards.  Torture is commonplace and routine.  The link below is a grim read but if you can stomach it, you will have an understanding of how cruel a prison system really can be.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/extreme-torture-inside-chinas-correctional-facilities/news-story/7e4a796bc1401d593f5cc58d7fd32ecb

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Regardless of being "better," those of us in the States theoretically have a little more ability to even try to push for change in our own country.

Both viewpoints hold truth:

"Don't act like China is the root of the problem when US manufacturing practices are also immoral."

and

"Let's take this immoral practice we're contributing to and add it to the massive pile in our own backyard to hopefully fight it there."

 

Or maybe I've misunderstood.

I havent seen the second point raised till you posted it. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

I don't think you know very much about China.  It's not like America.  The Chinese Communist Party runs everything.  Everything.  They choose what you read, what you see, what you hear.   People are so afraid of saying what they think that they use code-words to say the things they're forbidden from saying.    Every large company is, at some level, an arm of the state.  The company FFG uses will have Party workers running it who report back to CCHQ, just like every company does.  Most global corporates don't care, which is a mistake.  Others will openly back the CCP in order so secure more profits.  HSBC and Standard Chartered Bank last week backed the CCP against the Hong Kong protestors, so that they could keep their businesses operating in China. 

 

You claim that America has 'concentration camps'.  Well, that is a loaded word because it draws comparisons with the Soviet Gulags and the Nazi camps like Dachau.  I notice that one of your more - ahem - left-field politicians used that inflammatory term to describe them.  They are not like the Gulags.  You should read about the Gulags and what happened in them before you compare what's happening in America to them.  Did you know you could get sent to the Gulag for 10 years for reading the wrong book?  What you have a system for securing some of the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who are pouring in to the country.  What is the alternative?  Open the borders?  Some people will say yes, and some no, depending upon their points of view.  One side will be righter than the other.  Trump was elected because the people who like open borders have had them very open for a long time, and the people who don't like open borders don't feel that they've been listened to.  This is what closing the borders looks like. 

 

I know that the American prison system isn't working and I agree that it is a problem.  It isn't comparable to what happens in China.  Not in the least.  Chinese prisoners have no rights, and if they're political prisoners (which you can become by wearing a t-shirt with the wrong slogan) they won't have had a trial.  Their families will have no idea where they are, or if they're alive or dead.  The families will be under close surveillance for years afterwards.  Torture is commonplace and routine.  The link below is a grim read but if you can stomach it, you will have an understanding of how cruel a prison system really can be.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/extreme-torture-inside-chinas-correctional-facilities/news-story/7e4a796bc1401d593f5cc58d7fd32ecb

 

 

 

Yes actually, I know a lot about China. China is extremely controversial in US socialist circles so there is a lot of discussion and research done about it. In fact my reading group spent about three months reading specifically about the state violence against the muslim minority in the west, taken from reports by communist youth groups which publish them illegally because China censors any speech that goes against their state capitalist line. I'm aware of how companies are controlled by, or heavily lobby the Chinese government. (Although let us be honest, this small aspect is marginally better than the reverse, where our government is controlled by our companies)

Please don't pretend that Global corporations have any scruples whatsoever. We know they don't. "They don't care, which is a mistake" Nah man, they don't care, which for their(immoral) goals of maximizing short term profits is the smartest option they can take.

Yes, I claim that the US has concentration camps. Just like the vast majority of Holocaust Historians who've spoken on the topic claim. And like my grandmother, and many other Japanese American survivors of US internment, claim. She spent her young childhood, starting at 5, living in a US concentration camp during WW2 because her parents emmigrated from Japan and became US citizens before they had her. The term "concentration camp" in popular usage is a loaded term because the word "death camp" has fallen out of popular usage for describing certain Nazi camps, but if we're being accurate in an academic context, they most certainly ARE concentration camps. I'm sorry if that upsets your feelings.

Again, I have read about Gulags. A barbaric practice that was extremely curtailed when the Tsars were overthrown, and which Stalin, a historical figure often viewed as a counter-revolutionary traitor by modern Marxist-Leninists, unfortunately expanded again. Some argue that their was a tendency within the party to expand the Gulags even before Stalin came to power, and I would agree that the Bolsheviks that were more right wing (and some notable centrists) definitely were predisposed to that. But you have to remember that even at the height of the Gulag system it contained a significantly smaller percentage of the population than current US prisons. (Internal USSR sources and right wing CIA sources both confirm this) 

As for the "10 years for reading the wrong book" statement, yeah, that's horrifying. Should we talk about western censorship then? The red scares? Pinkertons? Or how Sodomy laws in western countries at the time often had life sentences or chemical castration built into them? Or should we discuss Jim Crow, and widespread white supremacy? Han supremacy barely has anything on Jim Crow.

Yes actually, open the borders. Freedom of movement is a basic human right, and even ignoring the moral argument and acting completely in self interest, restricting the free flow of labor while capital and commodities can flow freely is one of the primary reasons why pay disparities exist between countries, and why jobs are outsourced to places like China. And even internally, undocumented workers in the US are exploited as a source of cheap labor by the capitalist class, driving down wages for everyone else, only because they don't have access to ANY labor protections that other workers have. If immigrants had the same rights as other US residents, the capitalist class wouldn't be able to force competition between them and other workers.

But even if you don't want open borders, at no point should you think "Putting children in densely packed, unsanitary prisons is the solution." Anne Frank died of a typhus outbreak brought on by overcrowding and unsanitary conditions in the concentration camp, not a gas chamber. If you think putting children in those conditions is EVER acceptable, you really need to look in the mirror and ask "Hanz, are we the baddies?"

The US has never had open borders when it comes to the movement of people. Trade, absolutely, free trade benefits the capitalist class. Free movement hurts them, which is why it will never happen in the current system. Arguing that because Trump won there is some popular mandate to put undocumented immigrants in concentration camps is ridiculous, especially because he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton-the human embodiment of everything wrong with american politicians- by three million votes, open borders for human beings has never existed in the US, and that Obama, the politician who you think opened the borders actually started the concentration camps!


"It isn't comparable to what happens in China" You know the US has a massive amount of political prisoners right? The war on drugs was a direct effort to target political opponents, this was admitted by members of several presidential administrations. Almost all US prisoners don't even have a trial, political or not, because something like 95 percent of people are coerced into plea deals. Torture is rampant in US prisons. There is a reason that prison **** jokes are a common occurrence in the US, and every prison has solitary confinement cells. Oh, or should we talk about conversion therapy camps, which aren't outlawed by the vast majority of states, where innocent children and teens are routinely tortured and raped? Or should we discuss the FBI's systemic imprisonment and assassination of civil rights leaders and activists?

Your article is sparse on sources(it links to none) but I'd believe it. Similar torture has been reported to happen in prisons in the US, even ignoring places like Guantanamo Bay. 

I'd like to make sure you understand that I'm not saying these things in defense of the Chinese Government, which I believe has been almost totally consumed by counter-revolutionary actors. I'm saying this against the narrative of Western Countries superiority in the arena of human rights. They, especially the US, have absolutely no leg to stand on, and they use these narratives to push for an agenda that directly harms people.

11 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Regardless of being "better," those of us in the States theoretically have a little more ability to even try to push for change in our own country.

Both viewpoints hold truth:

"Don't act like China is the root of the problem when US manufacturing practices are also immoral."

and

"Let's take this immoral practice we're contributing to and add it to the massive pile in our own backyard to hopefully fight it there."

 

Or maybe I've misunderstood.



I'd argue that we have no mechanisms to change things in the US either, the plutocracy that we had no control over is rapidly descending into fascism. 

 

Edited by ExplosiveTooka
grammar

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1 minute ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

I'd argue that we have no mechanisms to change things in the US either, the plutocracy that we had no control over is rapidly descending into fascism. 

Not many alternatives beyond trying to encourage change or giving up and ignoring it. 

I'm of the belief these authoritarian shifts are an ugly part of a natural cycle in society, and even if we're declining in the "short" term, the overall picture is one of slow, painful improvement.

For example, I think many people would agree in a broad sense war, disease, hunger, and discrimination aren't as pervasive now as they were even 50 years ago, let alone a century.

Things aren't perfect, they often aren't even remotely acceptable, but that doesn't make them hopeless or stagnant.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Not many alternatives beyond trying to encourage change or giving up and ignoring it. 

I'm of the belief these authoritarian shifts are an ugly part of a natural cycle in society, and even if we're declining in the "short" term, the overall picture is one of slow, painful improvement.

For example, I think many people would agree in a broad sense war, disease, hunger, and discrimination aren't as pervasive now as they were even 50 years ago, let alone a century.

Things aren't perfect, they often aren't even remotely acceptable, but that doesn't make them hopeless or stagnant.

China's government is terrible, in very similar ways to the US government, but while the extent the US left wing movement is restricted to mostly ineffectual and disorganized protests, China's political left is actually organized. The ACFTU, depending on your sources,has been hijacked/is being hijacked/has a high probability of being hijacked by worker led interests. I have an inkling more confidence for change in China than I do in the US.

Edited by ExplosiveTooka

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1 hour ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Yes actually, I know a lot about China. China is extremely controversial in US socialist circles so there is a lot of discussion and research done about it. In fact my reading group spent about three months reading specifically about the state violence against the muslim minority in the west, taken from reports by communist youth groups which publish them illegally because China censors any speech that goes against their state capitalist line. I'm aware of how companies are controlled by, or heavily lobby the Chinese government. (Although let us be honest, this small aspect is marginally better than the reverse, where our government is controlled by our companies)

Please don't pretend that Global corporations have any scruples whatsoever. We know they don't. "They don't care, which is a mistake" Nah man, they don't care, which for their(immoral) goals of maximizing short term profits is the smartest option they can take.

Yes, I claim that the US has concentration camps. Just like the vast majority of Holocaust Historians who've spoken on the topic claim. And like my grandmother, and many other Japanese American survivors of US internment, claim. She spent her young childhood, starting at 5, living in a US concentration camp during WW2 because her parents emmigrated from Japan and became US citizens before they had her. The term "concentration camp" in popular usage is a loaded term because the word "death camp" has fallen out of popular usage for describing certain Nazi camps, but if we're being accurate in an academic context, they most certainly ARE concentration camps. I'm sorry if that upsets your feelings.

Again, I have read about Gulags. A barbaric practice that was extremely curtailed when the Tsars were overthrown, and which Stalin, a historical figure often viewed as a counter-revolutionary traitor by modern Marxist-Leninists, unfortunately expanded again. Some argue that their was a tendency within the party to expand the Gulags even before Stalin came to power, and I would agree that the Bolsheviks that were more right wing (and some notable centrists) definitely were predisposed to that. But you have to remember that even at the height of the Gulag system it contained a significantly smaller percentage of the population than current US prisons. (Internal USSR sources and right wing CIA sources both confirm this) 

As for the "10 years for reading the wrong book" statement, yeah, that's horrifying. Should we talk about western censorship then? The red scares? Pinkertons? Or how Sodomy laws in western countries at the time often had life sentences or chemical castration built into them? Or should we discuss Jim Crow, and widespread white supremacy? Han supremacy barely has anything on Jim Crow.

Yes actually, open the borders. Freedom of movement is a basic human right, and even ignoring the moral argument and acting completely in self interest, restricting the free flow of labor while capital and commodities can flow freely is one of the primary reasons why pay disparities exist between countries, and why jobs are outsourced to places like China. And even internally, undocumented workers in the US are exploited as a source of cheap labor by the capitalist class, driving down wages for everyone else, only because they don't have access to ANY labor protections that other workers have. If immigrants had the same rights as other US residents, the capitalist class wouldn't be able to force competition between them and other workers.

But even if you don't want open borders, at no point should you think "Putting children in densely packed, unsanitary prisons is the solution." Anne Frank died of a typhus outbreak brought on by overcrowding and unsanitary conditions in the concentration camp, not a gas chamber. If you think putting children in those conditions is EVER acceptable, you really need to look in the mirror and ask "Hanz, are we the baddies?"

The US has never had open borders when it comes to the movement of people. Trade, absolutely, free trade benefits the capitalist class. Free movement hurts them, which is why it will never happen in the current system. Arguing that because Trump won there is some popular mandate to put undocumented immigrants in concentration camps is ridiculous, especially because he lost the popular vote to Hillary Clinton-the human embodiment of everything wrong with american politicians- by three million votes, open borders for human beings has never existed in the US, and that Obama, the politician who you think opened the borders actually started the concentration camps!


"It isn't comparable to what happens in China" You know the US has a massive amount of political prisoners right? The war on drugs was a direct effort to target political opponents, this was admitted by members of several presidential administrations. Almost all US prisoners don't even have a trial, political or not, because something like 95 percent of people are coerced into plea deals. Torture is rampant in US prisons. There is a reason that prison **** jokes are a common occurrence in the US, and every prison has solitary confinement cells. Oh, or should we talk about conversion therapy camps, which aren't outlawed by the vast majority of states, where innocent children and teens are routinely tortured and raped? Or should we discuss the FBI's systemic imprisonment and assassination of civil rights leaders and activists?

Your article is sparse on sources(it links to none) but I'd believe it. Similar torture has been reported to happen in prisons in the US, even ignoring places like Guantanamo Bay. 

I'd like to make sure you understand that I'm not saying these things in defense of the Chinese Government, which I believe has been almost totally consumed by counter-revolutionary actors. I'm saying this against the narrative of Western Countries superiority in the arena of human rights. They, especially the US, have absolutely no leg to stand on, and they use these narratives to push for an agenda that directly harms people.



I'd argue that we have no mechanisms to change things in the US either, the plutocracy that we had no control over is rapidly descending into fascism. 

 

Ah a well informed post. Nice to see that there ARE actually some left-wing star wars fans (i assume you are one, given the socialist circles statement), since - at least in my experience - the majority of them seems to be conservatives or just plain ignorant of politics. I always assumed it had something to do with star wars being a pretty, well ... immature franchise. (I dont see this as a negative as long as it doesnt promote infantile thinking) Its one of the reasons why i tend to dont really wanna identify with most star wars fans at all, i love this franchise but so many of its (adult) fans make me feel ashamed to be associated with it. Im not sure yet if its a positive or negative (ethically not financially) that Star Wars speaks to so many different people with sometimes totally different views on issues.

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40 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Ah a well informed post. Nice to see that there ARE actually some left-wing star wars fans (i assume you are one, given the socialist circles statement), since - at least in my experience - the majority of them seems to be conservatives or just plain ignorant of politics. I always assumed it had something to do with star wars being a pretty, well ... immature franchise. (I dont see this as a negative as long as it doesnt promote infantile thinking) Its one of the reasons why i tend to dont really wanna identify with most star wars fans at all, i love this franchise but so many of its (adult) fans make me feel ashamed to be associated with it. Im not sure yet if its a positive or negative (ethically not financially) that Star Wars speaks to so many different people with sometimes totally different views on issues.

I'm more of a Iain M Banks fan but I really like some star wars and star trek. I really like the anti-imperialist themes of the original trilogy

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@ExplosiveTooka thanks for the extra information. It's nice to see a conversation like this happen with passion and without the insults or language that usually pushes these difficult topics into shouting matches and locked threads. This is a great community, and maybe we can push for some small change that can help make things better.

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Posted (edited)

@ExplosiveTooka Thanks for your posts, I couldn't agree more. I agree that under capitalism there isn't such thing as ethic production, and I'm not particulary a big fan of bringing back the production of FFG in western countries (even if I live in France, which I think as one of the best social coverage system). I just wrote this post because the concentration camp in China are an extrem way of alienate the workers and that I think that we can all agree that is it just too much.
For the rest ? If you can, unionize.

Edited by ZaZ333

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