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KingmanHighborn

My thoughts on the points update.

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Posted (edited)

My thoughts on the points changes as I read them, I make this list every time a major change happens and it's just my opinion in the long run, if yours is different that's perfectly fine, just sharing mine with the community:

Rebel Ships:

Auzituck went down. This is good. I have a friend that loves to run 4. But even then I think this might make me break out my one again.

K-Wing still has no sensor, but heck it's almost as cheap as a Y-wing for most builds. Still not crazy about it. 

E-Wing going down is good. I like it. I like alot. 

HWK going down on the Scout and Kyle is nice. Surprised the whole lot didn't go down. 

YT-1300... I'm REALLY surprised there was a price drop here.

Sheathipede is back in hyperspace... why? and Why only two pilots? Nice they got a drop but pfft... oh well.

Rebel Tie ... good to see some points drop, but it's not really enough. Rex needs a talent, or something... otherwise he's only useful if there's an I6-5 with Swarm Tactics to babysit the vet.

VCX is hyperspace legal... interesting... also good it's cheaper.

YT-2400... still needs to be cheaper. But this is a start. Still say it should have dropped 20 points across the board. I'm not... thrilled but I might try it now.

 

Rebel Upgrades:

Good to get more HS crew... not my forte but nice. A few named gunners like Bistan and Ezra coming down is nice too. 

I am miffed though that Moldy Crow and Outrider didn't come down. They should be a heck of a sight cheaper. Like 9 and 7 respectfully. I don't see why these are so prohibitively expensive. But this is my only real complaint faction wise. I'm very much in the boo and hiss mood here with these not dropping though.


Imperial Ships:

Alpha-Class going down in points is excellent. 

Lambda... Jendon going UP is less so... BUUUUT I get that. He's the best Lamb pilot for a good reason.

Advanced v1, I'm REALLY surprised the Baron got bumped that low. Inquisitor getting a bit of a bump up is fine, but I think the named pilots were starting to get more use as time went on.

Tie Aggressor, Ohhh you lowered the points on the named pilots... wow... *sarcasm* Seriously this ship would be USEFUL if you STOPPED SCREWING WITH ALL THE TOOLS IT NEEDS! Seriously WHY did you UP VTG on these guys!? WHY!? 

Tie Punisher, Punisher coming down a bit is nice though. Been wanting to run it again. Wish it was HS legal.

Tie Defender, named pilots came down. Still criminal that the I1 isn't 63 points.

Tie Interceptor, Soontir goes up... but not in HS while all the other Interceptors get into the pool. That's messed up. 

Tie Phantom, JESUS why up Whisper so much? I get that she's good but jeez. 

Tie Striker, I saw those points changes coming. I4s should not be priced higher than I5s

 

Imperial Upgrades:

Fifth Brother went up a point? Meh, makes sense. Only gunner the Imps ever use though. 

 

Scum Ships:

Aggressor going down! YEAH BABY! IGs are even better! Give me Elusive, Contraband, and FCS and it's a fun time with the letters A and D.

Y-Wing, no changes, but it's still bogus Drea is more expensive than Kavil. Also VTG going up is BOGUS!!!!!! Just had to say it.

YT-1300, ohhhh it's cheap... not great but hey an I6 under 50points... can't complain. Been a while since I flew it. But why not make all the pilots HS legal?

Firespray, Boba went up... I mean I get it, but couldn't this be his HS points and leave his points alone for Extended? 

HWK-290, oh look two pilots went down... did Moldy Crow go down for scum... nope. Still trash. 

Lancer, oh I'll take a points break on this baby. 

Quadjumper went down but it's weird that Sarco and Unkar at the same cost as the Gunrunner... makes no sense. I'll take it though.

Scurrg, I mean... yeah, Nym's cheaper. VTG got a point cheaper on the platform... so that's nice. 

YV-666, in case it isn't obvious. I hate it when FFG makes a handful of pilots for a ship legal for HS and a bunch not legal. Hooray for the points drop. Not sure why Moralo is getting a kick in the coconuts though. 

Z-95, WHY. IS. THE. ONE. NON. HS. LEGAL. SHIP. THE. FREAKING. I1. CANNON. FODDER? 


Scum Upgrades:

Bossk gunner goes down... okay... 

Slave 1 goes up... 5 is a bit much but everyone called it. Wonder if we'll see Marauder again?


Republic Ships:

Arc-170, one pilot goes down... and it's the one I like, that no one else does... okay.

Y-wing, lots of points drops is good, makes the unfair sting of VTG going up hurt less. 

Delta-7, I get Obi going up, but Plo and Mace? Meh, alright. This ship is still a stellar beast in the right hands, or a tender box in the wrong hands. 

N-1, Why did Ric go up?

V-19, Very nice to see more stuff go down besides the generic but again it's BS that the GST is not HS legal. Jeez FFG. Make it all or nothing PLEASE?

 

Republic Upgrades:

R4-P44 could be 1, it's way too tricky to be useful all the time.

R4-P, I like that astromech, so I'll certainly take it at 2 points


CIS Ships:

Belbullab, glad they put it back in HS, not a Sear user, but again he should be in there too for people that do like him.

Nantex went down, so that's good. Ensnare though is one of those things that just might as well be included in the cost if you're taking the ship. It's so pricey but in the right hands, so good. 

Sith Infiltrator, meh. 0-66 might see some use, but Maul is still where it's at. 

Vulture, surprised the generics went up. I thought they'd just target discords.


CIS Upgrades:

Kraken and TA-175, well I mean they are the only useful relays... but I feel like they are going up just to force people to try the other ones. 

Ensnare, it's weird. I don't like it for it's points, yet I don't see the point in taking a Nantex without it. 


Resistance Ships:

MG-100, all of them went down, that's good. I really want to use one. Stupid that it's not HS legal though. Staple a 7 point VTG to it all day though. 

RZ-2, Zizi went up... boo.... hiss... boo... but okay I saw it coming a mile away, that's such a good pilot ability.

YT-1300, glad it dropped some too. Just not sure what to run it with.

T-70, would have liked a little break on all of them, but at least it's all hands on deck in HS. 

 

Resistance Upgrades:

Glad the BBs got added in. I still prefer R4s, but glad nonetheless.

Ferrosphere Paint went down, still I doubt I'll see anyone use it. 

 

First Order Ships:

Tie Baron, Only have one, but happy to see the bugger go down in points a bit more. 

TIE S/F, it's bogus that Quickdraw isn't in HS, and went up... why? LeHuse went down? WHY? 

Silencer, Hooray you made the I1 cheaper, would it have killed you to make the I4 generic 50-2ish? 

Upsilon, Yeah... still over nerfed... cause Doormouse is still 10-15 points over costed. Wish this thing would go back to it's launch price.

 

First Order Upgrades:

SF Gunner went down a little... that's nice.

HTD is still 10 points which is STUPID! God I wish they'd drop the points on this, 5? IS 5 too much to ask!?!?!


Generic Upgrades:

Agile Gunner, Meh. Just. Meh.

VTG, This is the biggest sin in all of the game. This upgrade WAS FINE when it was priced at LAUNCH. Stop raising it! Stop it! Think of the poor Tie Aggressor. Look in it's puppy dog eyes as another one has to be put down in the shelter, because you were too greedy to feed it some GOOD UPGRADES! SERIOUSLY! Barrage Rockets, VTG, TURRETS!? LOWER THEM ALL! Or at least lower them for just the Tie Aggressor... and rebel and scum Y-wings.... but still. 

Good to see medium and big ships get a fair break. But Seriously... the Tie Aggressor… Why do you hate it FFG? What did it do to you? Did it ruin someone's marriage or something? *sigh*

Cluster Missiles, Ion Missiles, and Proton Rockets, all going down is good. All missiles and torps need to come down. So this is a start. 

Conner Nets and Ion Bombs, good to see them come down a bit. I think the single use, unrecoverable mines though need to come down more. Like Cluster Mines at 4 or something. Electro-Proton Bomb is still a bad joke. 

Passive Sensors, I use it primarily on cheap generics so it's good it's getting a break there. Not sure other than Vader's shenanigans why it'd go up on the I5s and I6s. At those Initiatives you're taking FCS. 

Crack Shot, don't get it, it's a one use thing, and requires a good bit of positioning to work. Predator is much better. And I like Marksmanship more as a preference... so... whatever. 

Saturation Salvo, good to see it come down. I want to use it someday.

Targeting Synchronizer, useful just not sure if it's going to supplant some of the other tech upgrades. 

All the torps but Protons, glad they came down, shame Protons aren't 10. They should be 10. They really should. 

Dorsal Turret, yeah... 2 points is fair, don't change it again. Now make Ion 3 and we're good. 

Edited by KingmanHighborn

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3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Upsilon, Yeah... still over nerfed... cause Doormouse is still 10-15 points over costed. Wish this thing would go back to it's launch price.

They ought to hard-errata Dormitz to be "small and medium" only, and not allow forward deployment of large-base ships.  Then you can really bring down the price of this and Hyperspace Tracking Data.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Tie Aggressor, Ohhh you lowered the points on the named pilots... wow... *sarcasm* Seriously this ship would be USEFUL if you STOPPED SCREWING WITH ALL THE TOOLS IT NEEDS! Seriously WHY did you UP VTG on these guys!? WHY!? 

They lowered Dorsal, though. 28 points for a TAG with Dorsal is solid.  It trades 1 health of a bomber for an extra firing arc, and that really can add up.

Like, I think folks just need to play some Turret-only Aggressors.  I mean, I guess they're not super exciting in a faction with 132 aces you can choose from, but they're solid ships for what they are.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Sheathipede is back in hyperspace... why? and Why only two pilots?

Because like the Ghost, they'd only been in HS for like a hot minute, so FFG gave back the balance of that time.  Only two pilots makes sense: they cut out the Init 6 Fenn Rau, since HS is pretty restrictive on high Init ships, but you'll notice they also often restrict the lowest pilots on crew carrier type ships.  AP-5 is also without a doubt the most played Sheathipede, so only bringing Zeb/Ezra forces folks to consider new options.

This is kind of also the answer to "why aren't some pilots for XYZ ship in Hyperspace."  They're usually either [1] top aces [2] highly-played low init folks because they're cheap.  Not having all the aces and forcing folks to be creative is the entire point of Hyperspace.  Not everyone fits this pattern (Lando in Lando's Falcon), but somewhat close.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Tie Defender, named pilots came down. Still criminal that the I1 isn't 63 points.

Flipside: I'm baffled FFG has kept buffing the humble Delta Defender.  They're one of my most flown ships of 2e, and I've never felt they needed this level of buffs.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Nantex went down, so that's good. Ensnare though is one of those things that just might as well be included in the cost if you're taking the ship. It's so pricey but in the right hands, so good. 

Folks are probably sleeping on Nantex as plain generics.  They're highly mobile without stress, have a turret, and that 3-red bullseye can be potent as well.  Right now, they're wicked cheap.  You can do something like bring Grievous + 5 and that's going to be a pretty scary list.

4 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Crack Shot, don't get it, it's a one use thing, and requires a good bit of positioning to work. Predator is much better. And I like Marksmanship more as a preference... so... whatever. 

When CS was 1 point, Predator *wasn't* better.  That's why we saw Crack Shot taken overwhelmingly.  Right now at the same cost, what Crack Shot offers is immediacy.  In terms of probability and expected results, you need to get two attacks with Predator for it to have the same impact as a single chance with Crack Shot.

It'll be interesting to see folks experiment with Marksmanship, however.  It'll be cool to see how it does.

4 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Passive Sensors, I use it primarily on cheap generics so it's good it's getting a break there. Not sure other than Vader's shenanigans why it'd go up on the I5s and I6s. At those Initiatives you're taking FCS. 

The reason is because FFG made a mistake in not requiring a Lock action to equip Passive Sensors.  This meant Whisper gets all the benefits of Passive Sensors (the flexibility of targeting) without paying for them, since the cost was the same as Targeting Computer.  With the new price of 4 points on Init 5, she's paying something closer to the value of what she's getting, and has the option to save a point and just go with TC.

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5 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I am once again very glad that the average forum goer has no actual input in the points updates, because there's so much madness being suggested here I honestly don't even know where to start...

 Madness is subjective and in this case based on experience and flying style preference. 

 

4 hours ago, Maui. said:

Wait, you actually want triple upsilons back?

I own three. So... Yeah. That said it's magic was figured out weeks before the nerf. And even then, what little validation there was for a nerf being true, I think it got nerfed to hard. It went from B tier/Upper A pre nerf, to never seen sub C tier post nerf. So there's a good case to ease up on it. 

 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

They ought to hard-errata Dormitz to be "small and medium" only, and not allow forward deployment of large-base ships.  Then you can really bring down the price of this and Hyperspace Tracking Data.

Meh, I don't think it was that bad. It made it essential to get a good opening volley in and if your opponent was cagey they'd get around you. If upsilons had turrets, yeah it'd be pretty unfair. I understand the nerf I just thought instead of nerf bat, FFG went full on clubbing the baby harp seal. 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

They lowered Dorsal, though. 28 points for a TAG with Dorsal is solid.  It trades 1 health of a bomber for an extra firing arc, and that really can add up.

Like, I think folks just need to play some Turret-only Aggressors.  I mean, I guess they're not super exciting in a faction with 132 aces you can choose from, but they're solid ships for what they are.

You ain't wrong. I liked running them with ions alongside a dauntless decimator just to lock and bump, think I had intimidation too. And Joni's too, But vtg is a godsend for them. Still wish FFG would drop vtg, and barrage rockets back down. 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Because like the Ghost, they'd only been in HS for like a hot minute, so FFG gave back the balance of that time.  Only two pilots makes sense: they cut out the Init 6 Fenn Rau, since HS is pretty restrictive on high Init ships, but you'll notice they also often restrict the lowest pilots on crew carrier type ships.  AP-5 is also without a doubt the most played Sheathipede, so only bringing Zeb/Ezra forces folks to consider new options.

This is kind of also the answer to "why aren't some pilots for XYZ ship in Hyperspace."  They're usually either [1] top aces [2] highly-played low init folks because they're cheap.  Not having all the aces and forcing folks to be creative is the entire point of Hyperspace.  Not everyone fits this pattern (Lando in Lando's Falcon), but somewhat close.

I get it, I just don't like it. And yeah no Lando makes no sense. But then again I'm not high on the format. I only care cause a lot of tournaments use it. LFGS here only plays extended otherwise. And extended > hyperspace all day and every day. 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Flipside: I'm baffled FFG has kept buffing the humble Delta Defender.  They're one of my most flown ships of 2e, and I've never felt they needed this level of buffs.

Meh it's a smidge overcosted but from a competitive stand point I wouldn't touch the named pilots up or down. It's the generics that need the cut. Triple I1s with passive sensors would be great and fair. 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

When CS was 1 point, Predator *wasn't* better.  That's why we saw Crack Shot taken overwhelmingly.  Right now at the same cost, what Crack Shot offers is immediacy.  In terms of probability and expected results, you need to get two attacks with Predator for it to have the same impact as a single chance with Crack Shot.

It'll be interesting to see folks experiment with Marksmanship, however.  It'll be cool to see how it does.

I saw it a lot but was never personally on the bandwagon. Outside of Contraband Cybernetics I'm not keen on one and done style upgrades. It's why I like predator and marksmanship more. Much more consistent and there more often. 

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

The reason is because FFG made a mistake in not requiring a Lock action to equip Passive Sensors.  This meant Whisper gets all the benefits of Passive Sensors (the flexibility of targeting) without paying for them, since the cost was the same as Targeting Computer.  With the new price of 4 points on Init 5, she's paying something closer to the value of what she's getting, and has the option to save a point and just go with TC.

I don't think it was a mistake, but now that targeting computer is out they could maybe add that as a requirement. But really Whisper and Vader are the only ones I see that benefit at high Initiatives. Otherwise the go to is FCS. I4 and below passive is much better than fcs. 

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1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

I saw it a lot but was never personally on the bandwagon. Outside of Contraband Cybernetics I'm not keen on one and done style upgrades. It's why I like predator and marksmanship more. Much more consistent and there more often. 

Even if you underestimated Crack Shot, that doesn't mean it was actually weaker.

1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

I don't think it was a mistake, but now that targeting computer is out they could maybe add that as a requirement.

That would have been my preference, to errata Passive Sensors to require a Lock action on your bar.  That shuts down Whisper, and only leaves Vader, and the nerf works fine there (even if I'd prefer just a small list banning certain upgrades on some ships or with other upgrades).

1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Meh it's a smidge overcosted but from a competitive stand point I wouldn't touch the named pilots up or down. It's the generics that need the cut. Triple I1s with passive sensors would be great and fair. 

Passive Sensors would be useless on Delta Defenders.  You'd almost always just be better off taking focus to emphasize your defensive talents.  Otherwise, Fire Control System is the way to go, since you'll grab a lock when it's safe, and hold onto it forever and have passive Evade, plus passive rerolls, and will be a nightmare in any 1-on-1 situation.

Just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not Triple Defender should exist.  I think it's best that it doesn't.

1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

I own three. So... Yeah. [Wanting Triple Upsilon]

Let's grant for a second that Triple Upsilon isn't problematically strong...  It's problematically unfun for the opponent.

That's also kinda the issue with Defenders.  Tournament-wise they're not that much of an issue for large events.  However, they are a real frustration for someone just sitting down against it at the FLGS.  That's certainly been my experience with Palp Defenders.  Defenders are *REALLY* rough ships to face for newer players, and it's good for these to be balanced around casual night and small kit tourneys, more than System Opens or whatever.

Going back to Upsilons, people don't want two giant attacks in their face first turn, and I can't blame them for it.  Either you die, or you avoid it, and then whatever remains of the game is still pretty uninteresting.  It's just not good for the game, even if the winrate is low enough.

Again, Errata probably would have been better than a points nerf.  That'd keep the ships and upgrades playable, but just not with the one problematic strategy.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I am once again very glad that the average forum goer has no actual input in the points updates, because there's so much madness being suggested here I honestly don't even know where to start...

 

1 hour ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Wow that wall of text is so badly wrong in almost everything it says.

Im sorry you wasted all that time.

I love how when someone brings up that the X-wing community has a huge problem with being super unfriendly to players who aren't already super into the tournament meta because anyone with an offbeat opinion gets reacted to with naked hostility, that there is any confusion onto if this is true.

Be better, and fly like 5000% more casually.

Quote

The Bitter Fig's entire actual engagement with this player and sharing their knowledge rather than being taken aback and downright offended that someone didn't shoot out of the womb with their immaculate knowledge of X-wing.

Thank you to being the Gallant to these Goofuses and helping 'jump a player in' to a deeper understanding and level of play of X-wing. Unironically super classy behavior here I love to see.

To add to your point on why Crack Shot is so good:

Most bullseye talents reward you for being able to maintain bullseye up-time on demand on a target, because they are repeating low impact effects. 

Crack shot only requires you to get crack shot once to get 1 bonus damage, and did this for 1 point. Even if your not at the level you can push for bullseyes when you want, if you practice for a bit you can probably force it to happen at least once a game with a ship before it dies. At that point, Crack Shot is 1 extra damage over the course of the game.

This doesn't just create problems for other talents that need to compete with 1 nearly guaranteed damage, but for anything that pushed damage. Like advanced proton torpeedos change your 3 dice attack to a 5 dice attack, which pushed your damage from 1.7 to 2.5, so LESS than crack shot, despite costing 6 times as much, with the only benefit being a crit. If you somehow could double mod for free, you were still only getting .9 damage. This meant a torpeedo which had more strict requirements in some respects than crack shot (You need to basically 'call the shot' with a target lock, which often comes at positioning disadvantages, while crack shot lands any time you directly align with a ship), had a worse damage effect and was paying 5 points for an auto-crit.

A lot of elements of the game that either were more specific or similarly had changes were heavily de-valued by 1 extra average damage output over the course of the game being so guaranteed.

Now, crack shot had virtues as being one of the few upgrades in the game that were clearly good, while still not being taken universally, which I think is the ideal upgrade balance point, but it had the problem of making it really hard for any other upgrade to hit that point. Crack shot at 2 points for 1 extra damage over the game feels like a decent spot when you compare it to missiles and bombs, and creates room for other upgrades to add value without being too crazy because they don't need to force 1 damage in an extremely low effort usage of them to be 'worth it.'

Edited by dezzmont

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2 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Rude

You can disregard @Stay OT Leader’s rudeness. He’s rude a lot, kind of his thing.

You’ll find most of us disagree with much of what you said in your original post. That doesn’t excuse rudeness though.

If you want generally more engagement, my advice would be to possibly either do your writeup Offsite and link it here, do a kind of spreadsheet, or maybe choose a few things to focus on.

Just my two cents.

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1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

 

I love how when someone brings up that the X-wing community has a huge problem with being super unfriendly to players who aren't already super into the tournament meta because anyone with an offbeat opinion gets reacted to with naked hostility, that there is any confusion onto if this is true.

Be better, and fly like 5000% more casually.

In fairness the OP's opinions weren't just "offbeat", they had hyperbolic all-caps-boldface-shouting ranting so it was sort of asking for a blunt response in return.

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32 minutes ago, Dasharr said:

In fairness the OP's opinions weren't just "offbeat", they had hyperbolic all-caps-boldface-shouting ranting so it was sort of asking for a blunt response in return.

This is a bad take chief.

13 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

My thoughts on the points changes as I read them, I make this list every time a major change happens and it's just my opinion in the long run, if yours is different that's perfectly fine, just sharing mine with the community:

 

Message unbolded and re-bolded for emphasis.

So like... some guy with 200 posts and 100 + votes kinda screams 'new excited player excited to share stuff and their feelings' and who is generally an EXTREMELY positive member of the community.

Reading into excited takes that are different as your as 'shouting/ranting' is a personal problem. Be like the FGC and view every opportunity as a chance to be a rad mentor who makes people like the game more, even if someone has takes that aren't great, or are informed by inexperience. Everyone is on a journey, and when you see someone on a step you perceive as earlier than yours being too... overly enthusiastic or missing the point angrily at worst, and slapping them down, your helping make X-wing a worse game to play for EVERYONE.

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13 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Tie Aggressor, Ohhh you lowered the points on the named pilots... wow... *sarcasm* Seriously this ship would be USEFUL if you STOPPED SCREWING WITH ALL THE TOOLS IT NEEDS! Seriously WHY did you UP VTG on these guys!? WHY!? 

[...]

Y-Wing, no changes, but it's still bogus Drea is more expensive than Kavil. Also VTG going up is BOGUS!!!!!! Just had to say it.

[...]

Z-95, WHY. IS. THE. ONE. NON. HS. LEGAL. SHIP. THE. FREAKING. I1. CANNON. FODDER? 

[...]

HTD is still 10 points which is STUPID! God I wish they'd drop the points on this, 5? IS 5 too much to ask!?!?!

[...]

VTG, This is the biggest sin in all of the game. This upgrade WAS FINE when it was priced at LAUNCH. Stop raising it! Stop it! Think of the poor Tie Aggressor. Look in it's puppy dog eyes as another one has to be put down in the shelter, because you were too greedy to feed it some GOOD UPGRADES! SERIOUSLY! Barrage Rockets, VTG, TURRETS!? LOWER THEM ALL! Or at least lower them for just the Tie Aggressor... and rebel and scum Y-wings.... but still. 

Good to see medium and big ships get a fair break. But Seriously... the Tie Aggressor… Why do you hate it FFG? What did it do to you? Did it ruin someone's marriage or something? *sigh*

[Etc.]...

 

29 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

This is a bad take chief.

Message unbolded and re-bolded for emphasis.

So like... some guy with 200 posts and 100 + votes kinda screams 'new excited player excited to share stuff and their feelings' and who is generally an EXTREMELY positive member of the community.

Reading into excited takes that are different as your as 'shouting/ranting' is a personal problem. Be like the FGC and view every opportunity as a chance to be a rad mentor who makes people like the game more, even if someone has takes that aren't great, or are informed by inexperience. Everyone is on a journey, and when you see someone on a step you perceive as earlier than yours being too... overly enthusiastic or missing the point angrily at worst, and slapping them down, your helping make X-wing a worse game to play for EVERYONE.

Tone is a matter of interpretation to a certain extent, but those quotes from the OP are definitely rants.

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To argue in favor of the community, there are definitely two types of people which get a reaction from the "hardcore" part of the community. 

Personally I have never seen a negative reaction to a new player coming in with questions and personal thoughts and opinions. Those generally are welcomed with enthusiasm. 

On the other hand there is definitely a type of person that gets an negative response from the community, either justified or unjustified depending on how you look at it. 

The people who get a negative reaction from the community are the ones who conflate their opinions with statements or present their opinions as being "correct" while not really backing those opinions up with much, either in the way of tournament results or analytical data. 

The best example I can give is I remember a guy that was dead set on convincing people Pattern Analyzer was good on a Resistance A Wing while maintaining a superior tone of discourse about it and disregarding any and all arguments against him. 

Now I am not saying OP is one of those people but every time a thread like this pops up it kinda always devolves into a similar argument, so I just wanted to point out that it's not really fair to point the blame on the reaction of the community while not acknowledging the differences that provoke that response. 

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6 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Wow that wall of text is so badly wrong in almost everything it says.

Im sorry you wasted all that time.

Thers are better ways to explain why you and I imagine many other people feel differently to the OP, but lets not make snarky comments at each other expense.

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5 hours ago, Dasharr said:

In fairness the OP's opinions weren't just "offbeat", they had hyperbolic all-caps-boldface-shouting ranting so it was sort of asking for a blunt response in return.

 

Tone is a matter of interpretation to a certain extent, but those quotes from the OP are definitely rants.

Is that better? It defaulted to bold when copied over from google docs, and I just left it that way for ease of reading. 

And yeah it's a bit ranty where I felt like venting a bit, and a bit for over the top fun and entertainment factor, not meant to be insulting to anyone if they thought a few bolded words were somehow wronging them. 

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Even if you underestimated Crack Shot, that doesn't mean it was actually weaker.

Maybe not weaker, just not my cup of tea. The way I see it is if I get 1 single hit for example, and my opponent has 1 evade, crack negates it, and that's fine but the next time I have 1 hit and he has 1 evade it's moot. predator gives me that constant chance I might get another hit, and marksmanship makes that hit a crit. And for as long as the game lasts if I can get that bulls eye  I have it available. Also marksmanship works with any attack in the bull's eye so that's another reason I value it. Can't crack with a torpedo or cannon for example. 

 

8 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

That would have been my preference, to errata Passive Sensors to require a Lock action on your bar.  That shuts down Whisper, and only leaves Vader, and the nerf works fine there (even if I'd prefer just a small list banning certain upgrades on some ships or with other upgrades).

Passive Sensors would be useless on Delta Defenders.  You'd almost always just be better off taking focus to emphasize your defensive talents.  Otherwise, Fire Control System is the way to go, since you'll grab a lock when it's safe, and hold onto it forever and have passive Evade, plus passive rerolls, and will be a nightmare in any 1-on-1 situation.

Just going to have to agree to disagree on whether or not Triple Defender should exist.  I think it's best that it doesn't.

I reckon another reason they might not do that is iirc the only ships that have a sensor slot but no lock on the action bar is the Lamb and the Phantom. 

You might be right on Passive Sensors, my thought is more to just lean on the evade token and a potential block to mitigate damage. FCS might be the way to go anyways.  Though I tend to find things I3 and down have a harder time getting locks, without Passive Sensors. 

And I mean, that's fine, I personally think I1 and no talent makes them a bit predictable, and not too scary. If it was triple NAMED pilot defenders or the I4s with juke. I'd be right there in that camp with you. 

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Let's grant for a second that Triple Upsilon isn't problematically strong...  It's problematically unfun for the opponent.

That's also kinda the issue with Defenders.  Tournament-wise they're not that much of an issue for large events.  However, they are a real frustration for someone just sitting down against it at the FLGS.  That's certainly been my experience with Palp Defenders.  Defenders are *REALLY* rough ships to face for newer players, and it's good for these to be balanced around casual night and small kit tourneys, more than System Opens or whatever.

Going back to Upsilons, people don't want two giant attacks in their face first turn, and I can't blame them for it.  Either you die, or you avoid it, and then whatever remains of the game is still pretty uninteresting.  It's just not good for the game, even if the winrate is low enough.

Again, Errata probably would have been better than a points nerf.  That'd keep the ships and upgrades playable, but just not with the one problematic strategy.

I think that's the same argument for the old school harpoons.  And again it's probably just my opinion and how I like to fly and play. I loved harpoons back in the day and was a Joustero main, I had no issues with someone rolling up on me WITH harpoons. I like the idea of a list that can swing big and if it connects great, but then is tough sledding uphill if it falters. As far as a new person goes, yeah triple ups and triple defenders could grind on someone's nerves, but so can Fenn/Boba, Jedi Delta 7s, or whatever the next flavor of the month is on meta-wing. 

And again I got the reason behind the nerf of the upsilons, and the current nerf to Slave 1 on Boba. But I think the nerf was too much and a bit too soon, and made something I liked completely unusable rather than adapt and tweak the list itself.  I.E. I'm fine with points tweaks I just wish they'd up something a smidge, or drop things a smidge. With a few exceptions. 

 

6 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You can disregard @Stay OT Leader’s rudeness. He’s rude a lot, kind of his thing.

You’ll find most of us disagree with much of what you said in your original post. That doesn’t excuse rudeness though.

If you want generally more engagement, my advice would be to possibly either do your writeup Offsite and link it here, do a kind of spreadsheet, or maybe choose a few things to focus on.

Just my two cents.

I'm fine with disagreement, I've been playing X-wing since Most Wanted came out in 1.0 , and average a game a week at the FLGS since that time, not counting events and the like. I did write this up in google docs first. The whole thing was my initial take opening the points documents and reading down what the changes were and writing down my thoughts as they came to me. I.E. no filter. Just emotion and experience with the game and where my brain went on certain things. Like how it seems like the Tie Aggressor is just beat down. The overcost of things I liked, And how  I don't care for Hyperspace in general , yet have to pay attention to it, including what is and is not flyable cause it's the core format used for events. Where as game nights at the FLGS are more fun and competitive... and extended format. 

3 hours ago, Flurpy said:

The people who get a negative reaction from the community are the ones who conflate their opinions with statements or present their opinions as being "correct" while not really backing those opinions up with much, either in the way of tournament results or analytical data. 

Now I am not saying OP is one of those people but every time a thread like this pops up it kinda always devolves into a similar argument, so I just wanted to point out that it's not really fair to point the blame on the reaction of the community while not acknowledging the differences that provoke that response. 

This really wasn't meant for a deep take on the competitive meta or tournament data, just my thoughts and experiences with the game, ships and upgrades. I acknowledge there's a mainstream 'this is good' 'this is bad' and I tend to disagree with it sometimes. If I was building a list to take to a tournament it'd be a lot more analytical, or I'd be watching the bat reps from previous tournaments on GSP's channel. 

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3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

Is that better? It defaulted to bold when copied over from google docs, and I just left it that way for ease of reading. 

And yeah it's a bit ranty where I felt like venting a bit, and a bit for over the top fun and entertainment factor, not meant to be insulting to anyone if they thought a few bolded words were somehow wronging them. 

 

Yes that is much better now. Writing in all bold comes accross more as screaming something. That makes it a lot less pleasant to read to what it is now. 

 

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

And I mean, that's fine, I personally think I1 and no talent makes them a bit predictable, and not too scary. If it was triple NAMED pilot defenders or the I4s with juke. I'd be right there in that camp with you. 

 

Even though I love the Tie Defender and fly them myself I am very happy they keep it away from 3x I1 in 200pt lists.

I have flown Soontir + 2x I1 Defender a bunch and the Defenders really pull there weight. Especially if you fly them less predictable. Lot of people expect you to 4k all the time, so just don't do it every turn, but only in advantagous tuerns were the opponent can't punish it to easily with focused fire on 1 of them.  As when only 1 or 2 shots come in they often take no damage at all. 

For beginners facing 3 off them would be very much unfun.

3 hours ago, KingmanHighborn said:

 

And again I got the reason behind the nerf of the upsilons, and the current nerf to Slave 1 on Boba. But I think the nerf was too much and a bit too soon, and made something I liked completely unusable rather than adapt and tweak the list itself.  I.E. I'm fine with points tweaks I just wish they'd up something a smidge, or drop things a smidge. With a few exceptions. 

 

And yet you want the YT2400 to come down 20pts instead of the 6 points that Dash got this round. Let's see how he does with 6 pts and then we can see in 6 months if needs to come down more or not. 

1 of the builds I have used a couple times on him has perceptive co-pilot and Bistan gunner. With Bistan gunner going down 4 next to Dash's 6 that is already 10pts I got in those lists. I would love to see how that works before dropping down to much risking on having 6 months of OP Dash running around.

And this is not meant rude, but reading your post does make me happy that the point updates are not done by most forum members. As your views/points really feel like your wishlist to enhance your favorite ships and not to best balance the game at large.

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41 minutes ago, Revanur said:

And yet you want the YT2400 to come down 20pts instead of the 6 points that Dash got this round. Let's see how he does with 6 pts and then we can see in 6 months if needs to come down more or not. 

1 of the builds I have used a couple times on him has perceptive co-pilot and Bistan gunner. With Bistan gunner going down 4 next to Dash's 6 that is already 10pts I got in those lists. I would love to see how that works before dropping down to much risking on having 6 months of OP Dash running around.

And this is not meant rude, but reading your post does make me happy that the point updates are not done by most forum members. As your views/points really feel like your wishlist to enhance your favorite ships and not to best balance the game at large.

The YT-2400 is an exception to my rule. I think if you compare it to the YT-1300 and other ships it's very expensive for what it does. And Leebo and the generic suffer too. 

It does seem rude, but I'm not a games designer but informed opinions and 'wishlist' are pretty much the same thing, even if wishlist as a term is being used mean-spirited here, however I am looking at balance too. A glance at meta-wing before the plague shut everything down, kind of bares a lot of my points along about the ships that needed help. And that there was no need for vtg to continue going up, when it's no longer even being used, as it's to expensive to utilize on y-wing swarms and they already killed Dreadlocs before it even got fun in the previous points change. Now you never see pancakes or any y-wings outside of the named rebel ones and Kavil for scum. 

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1 hour ago, KingmanHighborn said:

The YT-2400 is an exception to my rule. I think if you compare it to the YT-1300 and other ships it's very expensive for what it does. And Leebo and the generic suffer too. 

It does seem rude, but I'm not a games designer but informed opinions and 'wishlist' are pretty much the same thing, even if wishlist as a term is being used mean-spirited here, however I am looking at balance too. A glance at meta-wing before the plague shut everything down, kind of bares a lot of my points along about the ships that needed help. And that there was no need for vtg to continue going up, when it's no longer even being used, as it's to expensive to utilize on y-wing swarms and they already killed Dreadlocs before it even got fun in the previous points change. Now you never see pancakes or any y-wings outside of the named rebel ones and Kavil for scum. 

I agree it was overpriced, but not 20 points overpriced and think you should also aply the rule to the YT-2400. As if Dash took a 20 pt drop he would cost the same as Chewbacca in the YT1300 does now. Which would be to cheap for Dash. Same with the generic. If you take of even 6 more points of you get to field 3 in a 200pt list. I think we should first explore the costs above it before diving into 3 four dice turret ships in a list.

 

That's why I put the the first part in front of it. As written sentences tend to be able to come accross different then in the spirit they are ment. And I really didn't want to offend you.

Maybe I can make my point more clear in that if the points change as wild as some of the opinions stated on this forum then we would have Dash come down up to 20 pts and Soontir and other aces going up 19 points as there are others on here that have called for that. Also their informed opinions that create their wishlist to give that increase.

A lot of the informed opinions people have are also influenced by their local meta and personal experiences. Which can differ greatly from those of others that play in different areas. And while meta-wing is a great tool, it is not a perfect picture to base changes on either. Others on these boards have explained that way better then I can now without looking back to their posts so I won't even try.

I am all for moderation and therefor I am happy with most of the current points update. Doesn't mean I agree with all of it or disagree with all you said. I also don't see the reason why VTG went up 4 points on small ships. Don't see the need to increase at all at the moment and then certainly not 4 in one shot. There are still plenty of spots the points could get better. Like the 2 named I4 Fangs Fighters and a few named Mining Ties, indeed a bunch of the Y-wings are overcosted still. (My opinion) But luckily we will have more point updates in the future that might address those things or if indeed needed will drop the YT2400s down even further.

Still leaves that I am happy neither you, others on these forums and even myself are doing the points updates and all we do is give our opinions. Which is a good thing to do if it is able to create a good discussion about things. 

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5 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

You have way too much spare time on your hands.  Maybe you should take up needlework or crafting?

What the heck?

Like, does anyone here really need to be? Is X-Wing not inherently a leisure-time hobby?

Most hypocritical thing I’ve seen on here in a while. Odd accusation, especially from you...

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16 hours ago, Revanur said:

I agree it was overpriced, but not 20 points overpriced and think you should also aply the rule to the YT-2400. As if Dash took a 20 pt drop he would cost the same as Chewbacca in the YT1300 does now. Which would be to cheap for Dash. Same with the generic. If you take of even 6 more points of you get to field 3 in a 200pt list. I think we should first explore the costs above it before diving into 3 four dice turret ships in a list.

I am all for moderation and therefor I am happy with most of the current points update. Doesn't mean I agree with all of it or disagree with all you said. I also don't see the reason why VTG went up 4 points on small ships. Don't see the need to increase at all at the moment and then certainly not 4 in one shot. There are still plenty of spots the points could get better. Like the 2 named I4 Fangs Fighters and a few named Mining Ties, indeed a bunch of the Y-wings are overcosted still. (My opinion) But luckily we will have more point updates in the future that might address those things or if indeed needed will drop the YT2400s down even further.

Still leaves that I am happy neither you, others on these forums and even myself are doing the points updates and all we do is give our opinions. Which is a good thing to do if it is able to create a good discussion about things. 

Well when he was 100 points he was without a doubt 20 over, I think he'd be perfect around 75-78ish And Outrider still needs to be half it's cost. Leebo should be cheaper than Chewie, and the Wild Space Fringer could get away with being 65 or even less.  Outside of Dash, as a platform it's bad, and it's sensor blindspot is a massive liability.  Maneuver wise it's similar to another ship I really like in the Lancer, and it's I2 generic is 55, And Ketsu with Shadowcaster is 68. 

Glad we agree on VTG though. As far as the I4 Fangs, yeah, I've gotten some mileage with Kad and Elusive but what hurts Joy is he has a temporary Wedge effect, that requires a 5-13 point investment. Without the Wedge Initiative. But if they dropped to 50... might be interesting it see Joy with Fearless and an Ion Torps, just to fuel his shots. 

 

And yeah these are opinions and discussions of the opinions, I have no hate for FFG. I do wonder how much this plague played a part in the changes we got since there wasn't as much info to go on.  

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