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Standard-sized upgrade cards

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On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

You might be right. I'm confident too about non of your reasons being the reason behind that.

How many players did you see using X-Wing 1st Edition cards at public or OP events, a year after SE was released?

I didn't. No one I know did. And I bet many others here did, if they were honest. But I don't expect anyone here to support my case -- just react with the confused Emoji whenever they can't refute something I post.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

That might be your case, not mine. You have an alarming tendency to speak for other people.

So speaking solely for yourself and disregarding the possibility of others feeling differently is somehow better, in your mind?

At least I'm trying to be representative and think of others.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

So Armada a players want to be seen with cards that they have to earn on tournaments cause they're status symbols and also want to be seen with cards that everyone may get for 25$. If that's true European players are creme de la creme as we pay 25€. UK mates are just gods we cannot look to the eyes.

This is just unintelligible.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

To me this seen a bit random. I can buy people playing alt stuff to say "I'm good", I don't see anyone buying the upgrade card to say "I'm rich". I mean, what's the point? He is already playing with 100+ $ toys.

Once again, you're only speaking for yourself and it seems inconceivable to you that others may think differently.

If you can't fathom anyone paying exorbitant prices for Armada tournament prizes, then explain the items on eBay?

It's not about someone wanting to be perceived as of being "rich", it's about them not wanting to be perceived as "poor". Or simply not owning old, outdated stuff.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

Either it isn't or I'm not human.

Or you're lying or just being obstinate.

Philosophers, scholars, anthropologists, and psychiatrists have all recognized, and even rationalized, the darker aspects of human nature. There are libraries full of fiction and non-fiction books that delve into this subject matter. And virtually all religious texts contain allegories and/or rules discouraging certain aspects of human nature. In fact, the relevant ones pertaining to this discussion are three of the Seven Deadly Sins: Greed, Envy, and Pride.

To claim that you lack any of those traits, or the capacity to feel them, is indeed to claim that you are not human.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

I might agree on some points about this topic and disagree on others I guess, but this paragraph is just propaganda.

You clearly don't understand what propaganda is -- or it means something different in your native language.

On 8/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, ovinomanc3r said:

As pragmatic as unreal. We already live with cards that do different things that they say and it's not a big deal. You wanna play competitive? You better read the current FAQ and tournament regulations. Sure, a new player with old stuff or an old player out of date might face some issues but as said, at competitive level, there is some work to do that's requested to players. They have to know what have changed. If the new cards are requested eventually I don't know, but if that gonna happen I don't see the point of not telling it before the release. They're getting sales, warning about it is gonna get more sales if anything, besides another thread complaining about it. On the other hand the percentage of modified cards is not big and some are getting just a little rework like Thrawn and other just a point adjustment or corrections we are already aware of. The first doesn't change the card at all, the second is a problem you should solve at home, while building the fleet and you have all the time to check the current version of the card and the third just say something you already should know cause you had to read the FAQ to participate. So yes, we might face a bit of confusion at the beginning but I wouldn't say it would reach the level of a problem.

FFG said that 18% of the cards in the Upgrade Card Collection have been updated. That's nearly 1 in 5 cards. And logically, FFG would only bother updating the cards that players actually use. I don't think cards like Support Officer or any of the Liaisons will be updated, because virtually no one uses those cards. The more popular and useful cards are more likely to modified. And we already know many of them from the FAQs over the years.

Once the new cards are released, there's going to be a rift between new Armada players and veterans who convert, and old Armada players who don't. If you only ever play at home, the new cards won't matter, just like the FAQ probably didn't matter to you. But for anyone who plays public games or in OP events, there will be pressure, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not, to convert to the updated cards. It happened with X-Wing, it will happen to Armada.

It's also happened to countless other games. Twilight Imperium is on its 4th Edition. Arkham Horror is on its 3rd Edition. How many players still play 1st or 2nd Edition? Very few, if any.

The creation of a new edition, even if it's unofficially called "Armada 1.5" pressures players to convert, whether they want to or not. Presumably, the reason why FFG chose not to call it Armada 2.0 and state that players would have to upgrade if they wanted to play official games, is because they knew it would be controversial and divisive. That's why they said it was "optional", so players would argue with each other about it, instead of blaming them. But eventually, FFG/Asmodee knows that players will upgrade.

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3 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

How many players did you see using X-Wing 1st Edition cards at public or OP events, a year after SE was released?

 

To be honest? 0. Dunno where they go?

However, that doesn't make you reasons, the reason why people are gonna buy it. You're gonna buy it due to greed, envy and pride. I'm gonna buy cause I only own 1 SFO, I lost 1 IF, I need extra QBT and LTT and I don't own a Pelta yet, neither the Onager or the Starhawk. It just happens its gonna update some old cards so cool, I don't really care about it but I thank FFG about it instead of blaming them.

3 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

So speaking solely for yourself and disregarding the possibility of others feeling differently is somehow better, in your mind?

At least I'm trying to be representative and think of others.

 

I don't disregard the possibility of others feeling different. You are just by speaking for the Armada players. I just pointed that you are always speaking like everyone agree with you despite the fact that some disagree (and then you go mad). Sure there are some who just want to look cool, I guess you are that way but the "I'm not poor" thing is just stupid. Sure there will be someone with serious mental problems who will think that. I don't. And regarding your criticism about people speaking for themselves, I know a lot of people who don't either. Lot of people skipped the SSD, dislike the price of the Onager or the Starhawk or are gonna get the card pack to skip buying the VSD expansion pack. I again don't know the reasons they may have to act that way but it doesn't look like they're trying to not look poor.

3 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

This is just unintelligible.

 

I pay more than you for FFG so I'm cooler. Intelligible enough?

3 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

 

You clearly don't understand what propaganda is -- or it means something different in your native language.

 

Big soulless corporation. Just starting with that turned your paragraph into ideological chatter. Nothing wrong for you thinking that way, don't get me wrong. It's just that your paragraph is a cliche.

4 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

 

Once again, you're only speaking for yourself and it seems inconceivable to you that others may think differently.

 

It's you who didn't conceived people honestly buying it, or ffg honestly offering a product to their customers. If they figured out they needed to make a change for the card size they decided to update the cards at the same time they are offering old stuff to possible new players. They really did a good job. They DON'T HAVE to give old stuff to new players neither UPDATE it. That's something we know. Why the changed the size is some we can only SPECULATE about but as I said the new size is not bad per se and to me it points to long term thinking.

4 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

If you can't fathom anyone paying exorbitant prices for Armada tournament prizes, then explain the items on eBay?

It's not about someone wanting to be perceived as of being "rich", it's about them not wanting to be perceived as "poor". Or simply not owning old, outdated stuff.

 

I keep seeing those exhorbitant prices and I guess they're still there cause people don't buy it but I don't check eBay honestly. People may offer what they want, specially that market has nothing to do with offer-demand so it means nothing. But whatever, let's say people buy them? How many are they? Are they actual Armada players cause I know people who buy whatever is SW? I know a guy who is full in x-wing and never ever played it. He is just a collector. I have bought tournament material, some cards, cheap price, and just cause I like the full art and cause those kits never reached my country. On the other hand I own alt stuff I never ever use, not cause that might be cards people don't use a lot, I just don't like them despite I could just go to any match with my full set of range rules I've got on a Grand Championship but I don't, cause I don't like them. And the only reason I play with an acrylic range ruler is cause it's sturdier than the cardboard one.

You don't want to be perceived as poor? Just play Armada. You doesn't to be poor? Just stop playing Armada. xD

4 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

Or you're lying or just being obstinate.

 

Again speaking for others. It is not like I'm not flawed like everyone else. But I don't buy stuff to pretend. I buy things I need (or I think I need) or I want. I'm not naive about human nature problems but I'm not naive either about human responsibility.

 

4 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

.

FFG said that 18% of the cards in the Upgrade Card Collection have been updated. That's nearly 1 in 5 cards. And logically, FFG would only bother updating the cards that players actually use. I don't think cards like Support Officer or any of the Liaisons will be updated, because virtually no one uses those cards. The more popular and useful cards are more likely to modified. And we already know many of them from the FAQs over the years.

Once the new cards are released, there's going to be a rift between new Armada players and veterans who convert, and old Armada players who don't. If you only ever play at home, the new cards won't matter, just like the FAQ probably didn't matter to you. But for anyone who plays public games or in OP events, there will be pressure, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not, to convert to the updated cards. It happened with X-Wing, it will happen to Armada.

 

Again, 1 in 5 cards have changed. That means 4 in 5 didn't. Also of those that changed how many REALLY changed? Thrawn didn't in any sense. TRC or Rhymer actually didn't either cause those changes are well know, it's not like the actual change will create any confusion, the new player get the updated version and the old player MUST know it changed. Leia's kind of change is far from being a problem during a match. That let us with xi7 change as the rogue one. I changed that could have made by modifying the FAQ explanation anyways but whatever, it's now an errata. 1 in a 5 "problematic" change and I already know it and may play with it in mind.

So again, old players who play competitive (the only place this matters) are aware of most of this chsnges and new players will get the cards updated so they will be ok. I only see a problem if a new player enter the game with old stuff, then sure! So he run into his first game which is also a tournament (for some reason) and he face the reality:

- "you should have know that those cards got an errata"

- "where's that said?"

- "TO rules, bro, they're public, free and downloadble."

A problem easily solve with some catch up games before going competitive, acknowledging his fault and responsibility and just time.

Seriously, I don't see the problem. FFG already made changes during these five years to keep the meta as healthy as possible and now they're gonna update all your cards for 25$ that, as long as we know, you're not forced to pay if you don't want to. Even if you're, you sai yourself, they are 1 in 5 updated cards. They are too many for you so you should be ok.

 

 

 

But anyways, I'm done regarding this topic. You're too eager to discuss for my taste I don't even know anymore what you're complaining about. I thought the problem was the card size and I could understand that but all the problems and immoral business techniques you point over and over would be the same if the card pack was mini american. Seriously, wtf?! If Armada players have to show they can afford the pack, it would be the same if they were mini; if they have a sick need to run the updated product, it would be the same if they were mini; if they're gonna be problems between old stuff and new stuff, it would be the same if they were mini; if newest players want to have all old stuff in one place without buying the old stuff, it would be the same if they were mini.

EVERYTHING would be the same if they were mini but the fact that now I will need a standard size binder for my cards what makes all the "ffg is a demon that exploit the weaknesses of the despicable human beings Armada players are" crap just nonsense.

Ffg thought the card size change is a good thing (maybe just for them) and made a good product to make it digestible. Or maybe they already made a good product and then choose it to introduce the new change (good maybe just for them) again, to make it more digestible. So what? People who would pass on the card pack if mini sized may still pass. If they "can't" I would suggest them to improve themselves cause they're definitely needed.

If your problem is the card pack itself: don't buy it! You don't need it (if FFG didn't tell you already I do) and if you feel an uncontrollable push toward you FLGS to buy it, well, you've already done the hardest step which is acknowledging your problem, so good for you, and if you fail you may think the store owner will thank you and you're still able to try again the next day. It's not easy to quit smok... buying plastic toys.

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Posted (edited)

The argument that FFG is releasing the upgrade card pack as a cash grab doesn’t make much sense to me. Currently you have Imperial players buying liberties and MC-30’s so they can get Spinal Armament and Turbolaser Reroute Circuits. There’s a number of other examples of people buying expansions they don’t need (or want) just to get a specific upgrade card. The “stick it to the consumer” strategy would be to release the updated cards in new editions of existing ships, continuing to force players to buy plastic they don’t really need to get the 1 or 2 cards they want. Instead, the upgrade pack lets you get any upgrade you want, including commanders, without having to buy the ship they originally came with. You can get JJ without tracking down an Arq, Piett and Palps without spending $200 on an SSD, TRCs for all your kittens without buying 4 copies of MC-30’s, etc. 
 

Do I think the upgrade card pack will create a net increase in sales for FFG? Probably. But it’s not because they’re trying to “trick” us into buying something we don’t need. They’re building a better relationship with their customers by releasing something that has been asked for by the community. That will build customer loyalty and enthusiasm in the long run.  And they are doing more than I expect them to.
 

The legion upgrade card pack contains 60 cards and retails for $10. And most of those are the mini size. The Armada card pack will have 290 for $25. So you’re getting almost 5 times the cards for 2.5 times the cost. They could have charged a lot more or given a lot less if they wanted to stick it to the customer. It feels to me like it’s a move designed to lower the cost of entry for new players, not a cash grab. 

 

1 hour ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It's not easy to quit smok... buying plastic toys.

A veces me parece imposible parar. 

Edited by bkcammack

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5 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

How many players did you see using X-Wing 1st Edition cards at public or OP events, a year after SE was released?

1.0 cards aren't legal for use in 2nd Edition, with the exception of dual-sided prize cards that were released during the transition. You couldn't see anyone using 1.0 cards in events a year into 2nd Edition. Anyone playing 1.0 was playing a friendly/unofficial game.

5 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

But for anyone who plays public games or in OP events, there will be pressure, whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not, to convert to the updated cards.

The greatest pressure would be on people who aren't familiar with the FAQ (only played at home, just now beginning to venture into tournaments), and that can be addressed by hosts preparing a tablet and/or printouts with the FAQ; maybe even offering printouts of the errata text that cover the bottom half of the card - on paper to place into sleeves, or on repositionable labels to non-destructively attach to bare cards. I'm sure someone will have a PDF with easy cutting lines within a week of the changes being revealed. For cards that are only getting a points reduction, I'm just going to put a little dot label over the points and scribble it on.

5 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

And logically, FFG would only bother updating the cards that players actually use. I don't think cards like Support Officer or any of the Liaisons will be updated, because virtually no one uses those cards.

Alternatively, they could be updated precisely so they (might) see more play. Commander Leia is getting a points reduction but no rules change. Maybe Support Officer gets a points reduction. Maybe the Liasons can be used at least once for free, but have a resupply cost of one of the token types for the command they can change to. The new mechanics give a lot more flexibility to balance around besides just "ready every round" or "only use once". It's a chance to introduce a lot of "new" upgrades while re-using art, names, and general themes instead of duplicate effort that makes the existing content even more irrelevant.

6 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

And we already know many of them from the FAQs over the years.

Although Thrawn's update is purely visual (the text "place 3 command dials on this card" is replaced with the blue bar containing a 3 and the command dial symbol) - none of his FAQ text is going onto his card.

Most of the clarifications in the back of the FAQ are literal "frequently asked questions" along the lines of "yes, This stacks with That" or "this is the order of operations when these two specific cards interact". The rules already existed but sometimes players need to be reminded of the timing for certain interactions or be assured that they can really do what the upgrade says it does, or "no that's not how bracing works, you can't brace 1 damage".

Cards from the FAQ that I think could get text updates, not counting existing errata'd cards:

  • Screed - "ship" changed to "ship or squadron"
  • Bail Organa, Governor Pryce - blue bar with a symbol representing the round token, to replace the text "after deploying fleets, you may place 1 round token on this card"
  • Boarding Engineers - maybe to be more precise about how to pick the cards
  • Chart Officer - "an obstacle" to "any obstacles" / "that obstacle" to "those obstacles"
  • Comms Net - "After the" to "After your"
  • Engine Techs - maybe add in "This maneuver does not benefit from the effects of a Navigation command"
  • Strategic Advisor - blue bar with a symbol for the Pass Token, rewritten to give its equipped ship the pass token on exhaust, and maybe something to receive the pass token back during the status phase (this way, changes to passing rules can be written for the pass token, without having to errata Strategic Advisor)
  • Thrawn - we already know his new look, makes use of the blue bar
  • Warlord - "face with a Damage icon" to "face with at least one Damage icon"
  • Grand Inquisitor - "when an enemy ship at distance 1-5 changes its speed" to "when the speed of an enemy ship distance 1-5 changes"
  • XI7 - we know this is changing
  • Veteran Gunners - "to reroll all dice" to "to reroll all unspent dice" - maybe, although I think spent dice are no longer considered part of the pool anyways so this might be unnecessary
  • Walex Blissex - maybe explicitly mention the defense token returns readied
7 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

FFG said that 18% of the cards in the Upgrade Card Collection have been updated. That's nearly 1 in 5 cards.

I think there's currently a total of 222 distinct upgrade cards (going by the number of wiki articles and subtracting subcategories and Clone Wars upgrades). 18% of 222 is 39.96. Did FFG count point changes as a change, or were they referring specifically to text changes? How significant a change are we looking at for the 28 (assuming Leia doesn't count) yet to be revealed? We won't know for sure until a more in-depth article goes up, but I've got a feeling it'll mostly be the 10 that already have errata and another 10 that are getting actual new wording/mechanics like XI7, with the remaining 20 being small tweaks that are functionally identical (like Thrawn or my FAQ suspects).

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, bkcammack said:

The argument that FFG is releasing the upgrade card pack as a cash grab doesn’t make much sense to me. Currently you have Imperial players buying liberties and MC-30’s so they can get Spinal Armament and Turbolaser Reroute Circuits. There’s a number of other examples of people buying expansions they don’t need (or want) just to get a specific upgrade card. The “stick it to the consumer” strategy would be to release the updated cards in new editions of existing ships, continuing to force players to buy plastic they don’t really need to get the 1 or 2 cards they want. Instead, the upgrade pack lets you get any upgrade you want, including commanders, without having to buy the ship they originally came with. You can get JJ without tracking down an Arq, Piett and Palps without spending $200 on an SSD, TRCs for all your kittens without buying 4 copies of MC-30’s, etc. 
 

Do I think the upgrade card pack will create a net increase in sales for FFG? Probably. But it’s not because they’re trying to “trick” us into buying something we don’t need. They’re building a better relationship with their customers by releasing something that has been asked for by the community. That will build customer loyalty and enthusiasm in the long run.  And they are doing more than I expect them to.
 

The legion upgrade card pack contains 60 cards and retails for $10. And most of those are the mini size. The Armada card pack will have 290 for $25. So you’re getting almost 5 times the cards for 2.5 times the cost. They could have charged a lot more or given a lot less if they wanted to stick it to the customer. It feels to me like it’s a move designed to lower the cost of entry for new players, not a cash grab.

Exactly. Personally, I am not a "ship collector" and don't feel the need to own every ship in the game. Thankfully, I have friends who also play the game, are willing to let me borrow upgrades for tournaments, and live within walking distance of my house.

But most people are not in that situation, and have to buy ships (or multiples of ships, or go on eBay) just to get certain upgrades. Recently I paid $9 on eBay for two copies of the TRC alt art because I didn't want to buy multiple MC30s (even if they were in stock, which they weren't at the time). 290 upgrade cards for $25 is an incredible price.

Edited by Bertie Wooster

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8 hours ago, bkcammack said:

The legion upgrade card pack contains 60 cards and retails for $10. And most of those are the mini size. The Armada card pack will have 290 for $25. So you’re getting almost 5 times the cards for 2.5 times the cost. They could have charged a lot more or given a lot less if they wanted to stick it to the customer. It feels to me like it’s a move designed to lower the cost of entry for new players, not a cash grab.

But that would mean assuming FFG sometimes does things without the specific intention of making me suffer!  Which risks my facts-and-logic-backed, burning hot nuclear outrage being momentarily quelled...

 

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On 8/22/2020 at 2:58 PM, CaribbeanNinja said:

Complaining about FFG deciding to switch to standard sizes, and then offering them to us for $25 if you want them, may be the most entitled complaint in Armada history.

Dunno about others, but my complaint is about the future prints of cards that don't exist in Mini format being Standard size instead of Mini.

On 8/22/2020 at 10:53 AM, ovinomanc3r said:

EVERYTHING would be the same if they were mini but the fact that now I will need a standard size binder for my cards what makes all the "ffg is a demon that exploit the weaknesses of the despicable human beings Armada players are" crap just nonsense.

Noone is saying that, though.

 

By the way, is the damage deck also being upscaled? Because we know DD is included in Republic and Confederate starters, but the boxes only show the gray sleeve icon, which is for Standard cards.

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Agree with OP, I hate the change!

Practically I already have to use a second table at home (I use a foldable wallpaper paste table!) for cards, and full size just won't fit when playing (especially when using an extended points game to fit in a SSD).

Subjectively I love the contrast between the oversized ship cards, "normal" squadron cards, and mini upgrade cards. Standard across the board works great for X-Wing (not least because you have less units and less upgrades) but I now definitely won't get the upgrade pack. I'm also seriously reconsidering buying into Clone Wars as it'll effectively be a completely new game for me (i.e. no cross use of cards).

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7 hours ago, Bobthe4th said:

[...] as it'll effectively be a completely new game for me (i.e. no cross use of cards).

You'll be able to use existing upgrade cards on Republic/Separatist lists, and we've already seen a few of the new upgrades that aren't faction-locked so they could be used with Imperial/Rebel lists. We've also had standard-sized upgrade cards as promos/prizes before. Even if you don't buy any Clone Wars expansions or the Upgrade Card Collection for yourself, you could end up playing against someone who has mixed sizes for upgrade cards. Plus with a lot of people picking up multiple of the Fleet Starters, they're probably going to be selling a lot of duplicates - meaning even those who don't buy Republic/Separatist will have easy access to cross-faction cards.

And if you're playing at home, nothing's stopping you from printing mini-sized proxies of the cards. Someone on reddit did that the same day the articles dropped, even resizing the icons and text to look right next to existing mini-sized upgrades.

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On 8/22/2020 at 5:28 AM, bkcammack said:

The argument that FFG is releasing the upgrade card pack as a cash grab doesn’t make much sense to me. Currently you have Imperial players buying liberties and MC-30’s so they can get Spinal Armament and Turbolaser Reroute Circuits. There’s a number of other examples of people buying expansions they don’t need (or want) just to get a specific upgrade card. The “stick it to the consumer” strategy would be to release the updated cards in new editions of existing ships, continuing to force players to buy plastic they don’t really need to get the 1 or 2 cards they want. Instead, the upgrade pack lets you get any upgrade you want, including commanders, without having to buy the ship they originally came with. You can get JJ without tracking down an Arq, Piett and Palps without spending $200 on an SSD, TRCs for all your kittens without buying 4 copies of MC-30’s, etc. 

To some extent this will still be the case, as FFG has shown us at least two generic upgrades that will only be available with CW ships, forcing those not interested in the new factions to buy them on secondary markets or buy expansions they don't want.  It may be the case that FFG will release those upgrades in another card pack or with a GCW upgrade, but that will likely be at least a year or so away.  

I was hopeful that Armada would move towards the Xwing and Legion model of allowing people to focus on one faction and still be able to get all the generic upgrades without unwanted purchases.  For the immediate future, it does seem like there was a minor cash grab here on the marketing department's decision not to include the new generic upgrades in the card pack.

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3 hours ago, Armadness said:

was hopeful that Armada would move towards the Xwing and Legion model of allowing people to focus on one faction and still be able to get all the generic upgrades without unwanted purchases.  For the immediate future, it does seem like there was a minor cash grab here on the marketing department's decision not to include the new generic upgrades in the card pack.

But early to be making a judgement call on that.

 

doubky so given how long it took then to actually implement it, especially in XWing (where people are still complaining of it).

 

for one you’d need to at least HAVE a GCW release post CW, to make the call on wether they’re including them or not.

 

that would be the legion model, where occasionally the releases were a wave or two behind in catching up all flavours.

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I have not read this entire thread but resizing the card seem like business decision that was made as they had to update the card anyways so having all cards the same size going forward simply made everything easier. It seem a bit conspiratorial to think they did this for nefarious reasons... the cards needed to be updated and a good deal of the cards will have updated text and perhaps even small functional differences.

 

Personally I don't care and I only use the cards as a rules reference anyway and never bother to use cards that don't need some interaction such as exhausting them... I'm not a stranger to printing out cards if I need more of them either. A list is all I need along with the ship cards to hold tokens and dials. I never played against anyone who cared as long as you had a list which I could hand over to the opponent... I can even have two lists, one for me and one for the opponent. Then I have a single copy of all the card if I need to reference the rules and place them on the side in a pile.

 

I'm going ti buy a single pack of the cards for the new rules text and will happily print more cards if I need them, no big deal... I can make them small as well if I like. I can even make my own card size however I like them, but that take time I probably would not invest for something as trivial as this issue.

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5 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

But early to be making a judgement call on that.

 

doubky so given how long it took then to actually implement it, especially in XWing (where people are still complaining of it).

 

for one you’d need to at least HAVE a GCW release post CW, to make the call on wether they’re including them or not.

 

that would be the legion model, where occasionally the releases were a wave or two behind in catching up all flavours.

Right, and it will be at least a year before there is another GCW release, so for the immediate future you would have to buy an unwanted expansion if you wanted the generic upgrade cards for competitions or OP.  So, to some extent, by not including the new upgrade cards in this pack, FFG has ensured that folks have to buy some CW expansion if they plan to play competitively next year (assuming we get back to in-person tournaments).  Is it some huge money grab? No, but it was a choice that will ensure that some existing players who don't want CW still have to buy a CW expansion (or possibly a card upgrade pack down the line).

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1 hour ago, Armadness said:

Right, and it will be at least a year before there is another GCW release, so for the immediate future you would have to buy an unwanted expansion if you wanted the generic upgrade cards for competitions or OP.  So, to some extent, by not including the new upgrade cards in this pack, FFG has ensured that folks have to buy some CW expansion if they plan to play competitively next year (assuming we get back to in-person tournaments).  Is it some huge money grab? No, but it was a choice that will ensure that some existing players who don't want CW still have to buy a CW expansion (or possibly a card upgrade pack down the line).

I guess what I was more railing against was that you presented this as something OTHER than Business as Usual.

Its Business.
As Usual.

 

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In my opinion the most important thing is that the game evolve and become more balanced and remain interesting. If that means that some few tournament players need to fork out some extra money then me personally don't care one bit. My priority is about the game itself and that it evolve. That some cards become obsolete over time probably is inevitable, but points updates can somehow fix that. I think that in the digital age we should not have points on cards at all so points could be updated periodically, the same with card texts. It should be legal to play with printed cards so everything can be in a state of possible change at any time. In my opinion that would be the best... what card you can afford to buy and own should not exclude players from playing in tournaments if the wish to, owning the models to play the game should be enough.

 

I find it a bit childish to require the cards to be only "officially printed" cards for tournaments. As long as the printed card is a copy what is the problem?!?!?

 

Fortunately I would never play in a tournament so I don't care. But I do understand if some players that want to attend official tournaments gets a bit upset if they have to buy things they don't need to buy expensive cards online just for tournament play.

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3 hours ago, jorgen_cab said:

I think that in the digital age we should not have points on cards at all so points could be updated periodically, the same with card texts.

X-wing is trying to do that, with mixed results and reception. There have been a few cases where ships weren't available in the app at the same time as the product launch. I can't recall if the PDFs hadn't been updated yet either, but that would mean the only way to use them would have been Quick Builds (and while I like Quick Builds, I like them as an option).

3 hours ago, jorgen_cab said:

owning the models to play the game should be enough.

I agree with this to an extent - going so far as to think FFG could do some print-and-play components (kind of like how Legion's Skirmish objective cards are to be printed out). Additional ship variants, maybe not tournament-legal but for "extended" game modes, could make for great printouts. There's a "but" though:

3 hours ago, jorgen_cab said:

I find it a bit childish to require the cards to be only "officially printed" cards for tournaments. As long as the printed card is a copy what is the problem?!?!?

I think proxies would be too easy to edit, or to claim "Oh, sorry, this is an old proxy with the old text on it" if caught. And unlike a range ruler, where it's just a matter of lining it up with a real one for a quick visual comparison, you'd have to read the card (and there are a lot more upgrades involved than components). I wouldn't say this is a very strong reason, but I think it's worth considering.

Or if you mean "a copy" as in, as long as you own one then you can just proxy in the card's name for the duplicates, that I definitely agree with.

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1 hour ago, jorgen_cab said:

In my opinion the most important thing is that the game evolve and become more balanced and remain interesting. If that means that some few tournament players need to fork out some extra money then me personally don't care one bit. My priority is about the game itself and that it evolve. That some cards become obsolete over time probably is inevitable, but points updates can somehow fix that. I think that in the digital age we should not have points on cards at all so points could be updated periodically, the same with card texts. It should be legal to play with printed cards so everything can be in a state of possible change at any time. In my opinion that would be the best... what card you can afford to buy and own should not exclude players from playing in tournaments if the wish to, owning the models to play the game should be enough.

The points that you raised lend credence to the idea that the Upgrade Card Pack was poorly thought-out and motivated by greedy business reasons, rather than the health and natural evolution of Armada.

The fact that the points are still printed on the upgrade cards, instead of omitted from the card and maintained digitally, like in X-Wing 2E, will undoubtedly cause problems down the road as the META evolves. FFG never did points updates prior to Clone Wars, so there's no reason to believe they will do a points update after Clone Wars factions released. If another update happens, it'll probably be for an official "Armada 2.0" years from now. In the meantime, there could be new upgrade cards or updated upgrade cards that are broken because of their points value, and we'll be stuck with them and have to use FAQs again. This unavoidably causes confusion and arguments during matches. Whereas if FFG had omitted the points from the cards and curated the cards digitally via an official app, FFG could make adjustments whenever they needed to and players would have a universal and easily accessible reference source.

I've previously mentioned how changing the card size but keeping the text font size the same was a totally wasted opportunity to make the cards more readable. Again, if FFG/Asmodee had changed the card size for the right reasons, they would've considered accessibility for people with impaired vision. But they didn't, because that was never their objective.

I agree that printed cards should be acceptable for competitive play, because the requirement of official cards is just another way the FFG squeezes us for more money by deliberately making certain cards exclusive to one ship expansion. The Liberty expansion was by far the worst culprit for this, with 6 exclusive cards and 2 more that are also only available in the SSD expansion. FFG has been doing this for years and Armada players have just accepted it. It's long overdue that this practice was ended. At the very least, every non-faction-unique upgrade card should be available in at least one ship expansion per faction, so single faction players don't need to buy across the aisle just to get those cards.

The best solution would be an official Armada digital companion app that would give players access to every card, keep the cards/points up-to-date, allow us to build and save our fleets (like other Armada fleet builder apps), load saved fleets for matches, and ideally connect to an opponent's Armada app so both players could see both fleet builds and keep track of the game. Instead of having to ask for a reminder what upgrade cards are equipped on your opponent's ships, you could simply check it on your app. An app could also keep track of ship activations, exhausted/discarded tokens, exhausted upgrade cards, squadron activations, damage cards, and rounds. The utility and convenience of such an app would be immeasurable! I can't imagine any Armada player being against it (as long as it was free).

And that would just be basic functionality. A more ambitious Armada app could record battle reports and allow them to be saved, uploaded, and shared with the Armada community. Imagine being able to review any Armada match played in the world, replay it step-by-step in just a few minutes, instead of having to watch a 1-3 hour YouTube video with poor camera work, incessant camera shaking, and constant background noise. Or, if people like, the Armada app could have photo, video, and audio integration. Or, take it a step further and go for Augmented Reality features!

This isn't unprecedented for FFG games. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition uses a companion app. And Keyforge has the Master Vault app.

I know that people are going to point out that FFG/Asmodee developed an X-Wing 2E digital app, but failed to support and maintain it properly. There are several 3rd party X-Wing apps that do a superior job and are updated more frequently than FFG's official app. That's why X-Wing players stopped using it and FFG has virtually abandoned the app now. But the app's failure is on FFG/Asmodee. It doesn't mean that creating the app was a bad idea. Or that FFG shouldn't try it again and do it right next time.

There's a lot that FFG could've done to enhance Clone Wars Armada instead of just changing the card sizes and creating the Upgrade Card Collection to sell to us.

1 hour ago, jorgen_cab said:

I find it a bit childish to require the cards to be only "officially printed" cards for tournaments. As long as the printed card is a copy what is the problem?!?!?

Fortunately I would never play in a tournament so I don't care. But I do understand if some players that want to attend official tournaments gets a bit upset if they have to buy things they don't need to buy expensive cards online just for tournament play.

This is precisely why I believe that FFG and Asmodee are primarily motivated by $$$. (Save the predictable "businesses have to make money" excuses.)

I can understand requiring official ship miniatures, plastic bases, cardboard bases, dice, and tools. Those are necessary to ensure a fair match. But official cards are not a necessity. And Armada stock shortages have hindered many players from obtaining certain cards, thereby putting them at a disadvantage in competitive play.

The Upgrade Card Collection should resolve part of the problem, but when FFG causes the problem by making certain cards exclusive to certain expansions and then, years later, creates a new product to fix that problem, they don't really deserve credit for that. And it will just happen all over again with new ship expansions unless FFG changes how they distribute cards -- or allows printed cards in competitive play. If they made that pro-consumer business decision, then the criticisms of FFG/Asmodee being motivated primarily by greed would go away.

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1 hour ago, Revan Reborn said:

The points that you raised lend credence to the idea that the Upgrade Card Pack was poorly thought-out and motivated by greedy business reasons, rather than the health and natural evolution of Armada.

The fact that the points are still printed on the upgrade cards, instead of omitted from the card and maintained digitally, like in X-Wing 2E, will undoubtedly cause problems down the road as the META evolves. FFG never did points updates prior to Clone Wars, so there's no reason to believe they will do a points update after Clone Wars factions released. If another update happens, it'll probably be for an official "Armada 2.0" years from now. In the meantime, there could be new upgrade cards or updated upgrade cards that are broken because of their points value, and we'll be stuck with them and have to use FAQs again. This unavoidably causes confusion and arguments during matches. Whereas if FFG had omitted the points from the cards and curated the cards digitally via an official app, FFG could make adjustments whenever they needed to and players would have a universal and easily accessible reference source.

I've previously mentioned how changing the card size but keeping the text font size the same was a totally wasted opportunity to make the cards more readable. Again, if FFG/Asmodee had changed the card size for the right reasons, they would've considered accessibility for people with impaired vision. But they didn't, because that was never their objective.

I agree that printed cards should be acceptable for competitive play, because the requirement of official cards is just another way the FFG squeezes us for more money by deliberately making certain cards exclusive to one ship expansion. The Liberty expansion was by far the worst culprit for this, with 6 exclusive cards and 2 more that are also only available in the SSD expansion. FFG has been doing this for years and Armada players have just accepted it. It's long overdue that this practice was ended. At the very least, every non-faction-unique upgrade card should be available in at least one ship expansion per faction, so single faction players don't need to buy across the aisle just to get those cards.

The best solution would be an official Armada digital companion app that would give players access to every card, keep the cards/points up-to-date, allow us to build and save our fleets (like other Armada fleet builder apps), load saved fleets for matches, and ideally connect to an opponent's Armada app so both players could see both fleet builds and keep track of the game. Instead of having to ask for a reminder what upgrade cards are equipped on your opponent's ships, you could simply check it on your app. An app could also keep track of ship activations, exhausted/discarded tokens, exhausted upgrade cards, squadron activations, damage cards, and rounds. The utility and convenience of such an app would be immeasurable! I can't imagine any Armada player being against it (as long as it was free).

And that would just be basic functionality. A more ambitious Armada app could record battle reports and allow them to be saved, uploaded, and shared with the Armada community. Imagine being able to review any Armada match played in the world, replay it step-by-step in just a few minutes, instead of having to watch a 1-3 hour YouTube video with poor camera work, incessant camera shaking, and constant background noise. Or, if people like, the Armada app could have photo, video, and audio integration. Or, take it a step further and go for Augmented Reality features!

This isn't unprecedented for FFG games. Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition uses a companion app. And Keyforge has the Master Vault app.

I know that people are going to point out that FFG/Asmodee developed an X-Wing 2E digital app, but failed to support and maintain it properly. There are several 3rd party X-Wing apps that do a superior job and are updated more frequently than FFG's official app. That's why X-Wing players stopped using it and FFG has virtually abandoned the app now. But the app's failure is on FFG/Asmodee. It doesn't mean that creating the app was a bad idea. Or that FFG shouldn't try it again and do it right next time.

There's a lot that FFG could've done to enhance Clone Wars Armada instead of just changing the card sizes and creating the Upgrade Card Collection to sell to us.

This is precisely why I believe that FFG and Asmodee are primarily motivated by $$$. (Save the predictable "businesses have to make money" excuses.)

I can understand requiring official ship miniatures, plastic bases, cardboard bases, dice, and tools. Those are necessary to ensure a fair match. But official cards are not a necessity. And Armada stock shortages have hindered many players from obtaining certain cards, thereby putting them at a disadvantage in competitive play.

The Upgrade Card Collection should resolve part of the problem, but when FFG causes the problem by making certain cards exclusive to certain expansions and then, years later, creates a new product to fix that problem, they don't really deserve credit for that. And it will just happen all over again with new ship expansions unless FFG changes how they distribute cards -- or allows printed cards in competitive play. If they made that pro-consumer business decision, then the criticisms of FFG/Asmodee being motivated primarily by greed would go away.

Businesses have to make money. 

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