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Petersaber

Standard-sized upgrade cards

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

What if I stacked my cards on top of each other until I needed them? Will FFG accommodate my play style with see through cards? 

 

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

What if I am blind and need brail cards? Will FFG accomodate my play style?

Yeah! **** us for actually wanting to fit our cards on a standard 182x120cm table instead of the table that hosted the Last Supper. What are we thinking?! We are being so unreasonable...

12 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Why do you think the more recent fancy promos are those see through plastic gozantis and Demo?

Lazyness - recycling art. Can release a new promo card using old art by just changing it to transparent plastic and removing ship background.

Edited by Petersaber

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3 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

Yeah! **** us for actually wanting to fit our cards on a standard 182x120cm table. What are we thinking?! We are being so unreasonable...

You didnt address his blind question, you just sorta assumed what you what wanted and complained more.

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It's gonna be nice to be able to use a deck box as an organizer. I hate lugging around my binder. I am a little annoyed that 800-1200 point games are going to be impossible to line up on the side of the mat. I'm sure we'll find a way to make it work though. 

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13 hours ago, Muelmuel said:

Im actually kind of concerned for the replenishment of older ships.

Speculating, but it may be that reprints will come with the new cards (and in new-style packaging, without dials and so on).

Alternatively, while Armada may be dropping the mini-size cards (and X-Wing has abandoned them a while back), Legion seems to be keeping them for now. So FFG will still have production capability for that.

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Posted (edited)

Funnily enough, I buy many ffg mini american sleeves to best protect my upgrades. With this change I can now easily buy much cheaper standard size sleeves from the many competitors in this sleeve size market 😂

Edited by Muelmuel

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9 hours ago, Wayne Argabright said:

May get the upgrade pack and just copy/print them on card stock smaller to match the originals.. but what a PITA...Wonder what the official logic is in making the cards larger? 

Two main reasons I imagine.
 

First, simplifying the production process. If everything is the same size you don’t need to change up the machines between different card sizes. 

Second, go take a look at Thrawn’s old (mini sizes) card. The text maxes out the available space. The larger cards allow for more text, especially for complicated upgrades. Also, the new mechanic with the blue bars showing what token or dials you place on the card at the beginning of the game and the red bars showing what is required to ready an exhausted card take up even more space. The larger size lets these new mechanics be of a size that’s actually readable. 

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3 hours ago, bkcammack said:

Two main reasons I imagine.

First, simplifying the production process. If everything is the same size you don’t need to change up the machines between different card sizes. 

I'm so sick and tired of this argument. Anyone who knows about print manufacturing can tell you that changing printing presses and stamp dies is not a big deal.

The basic way it works is that a sheet (or roll) of cardboard paper is run through a printing line, plate cylinder presses imprint the image onto the cardboard one colour at a time, the glossy textured finish is applied last, and then a hydraulic stamp die cuts the cards from the cardboard sheet.

Changing the aluminum plates on the cylinder presses is a routine part of the printing process; newspapers literally do it every day. There's no practical difference between a printing plate with, let's say, a grid of 30x60 Mini-American size card images, versus a grid of 20x40 Standard size card images. It's just one large image that is transferred onto the plate during the platemaking process. If the images are different, it necessitates a different printing plate be made and loaded onto the cylinder press. It doesn't matter how many or the size of the card faces are on the printing plate. It could be a single image of the Mona Lisa or it could be a deck of playing cards. It doesn't matter.0

And the cutting stamp dies can be changed just as easily.

It's only a big deal to create an entirely new card size, because it would necessitate creating new dies that stamp cut the cards. But FFG and other board game makers have been using Mini-American size cards for years (decades?), therefore the print manufacturer already has the cutting dies made and ready to go. It's a routine, minor process to swap out the dies, and the cutting dies need to be changed far less frequently than the printing plates.

 

So stop claiming that Armada switching to one size card format will significantly reduce manufacturing cost and time, because it's a fallacy. If it were true, FFG never would have used 3 different card sizes in the first place!

The real reason(s) why FFG/Asmodee chose to change Armada upgrade and ship card sizes is/are debatable and contentious.

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16 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

I'm so sick and tired of this argument. Anyone who knows about print manufacturing can tell you that changing printing presses and stamp dies is not a big deal.

The basic way it works is that a sheet (or roll) of cardboard paper is run through a printing line, plate cylinder presses imprint the image onto the cardboard one colour at a time, the glossy textured finish is applied last, and then a hydraulic stamp die cuts the cards from the cardboard sheet.

Changing the aluminum plates on the cylinder presses is a routine part of the printing process; newspapers literally do it every day. There's no practical difference between a printing plate with, let's say, a grid of 30x60 Mini-American size card images, versus a grid of 20x40 Standard size card images. It's just one large image that is transferred onto the plate during the platemaking process. If the images are different, it necessitates a different printing plate be made and loaded onto the cylinder press. It doesn't matter how many or the size of the card faces are on the printing plate. It could be a single image of the Mona Lisa or it could be a deck of playing cards. It doesn't matter.0

And the cutting stamp dies can be changed just as easily.

It's only a big deal to create an entirely new card size, because it would necessitate creating new dies that stamp cut the cards. But FFG and other board game makers have been using Mini-American size cards for years (decades?), therefore the print manufacturer already has the cutting dies made and ready to go. It's a routine, minor process to swap out the dies, and the cutting dies need to be changed far less frequently than the printing plates.

 

So stop claiming that Armada switching to one size card format will significantly reduce manufacturing cost and time, because it's a fallacy. If it were true, FFG never would have used 3 different card sizes in the first place!

The real reason(s) why FFG/Asmodee chose to change Armada upgrade and ship card sizes is/are debatable and contentious.

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1 hour ago, Formynder4 said:

So stop claiming that Armada switching to one size card format will significantly reduce manufacturing cost and time, because it's a fallacy. If it were true, FFG never would have used 3 different card sizes in the first place!

Nope. It’s 100% to save money. 

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29 minutes ago, Petersaber said:

Could you elaborate? Switching between Tarot/Standard/Mini sizes on my mechanical cutter takes less than 10 seconds. What is factually incorrect in what he said?

It's not the switching of sizes that costs more, it's the varied sizes and shapes of packaging and the shipping.  A single size simplifies packing and shipping and so reduces costs.

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5 hours ago, Petersaber said:

Could you elaborate? Switching between Tarot/Standard/Mini sizes on my mechanical cutter takes less than 10 seconds. What is factually incorrect in what he said?

It's not just the cutter, it's the printing plates as well. I'm no expert, but having talked to some of the people who are in this line, it's a substantial bit of work. FFG learned a lot about printing cards through their efforts in Keyforge, and are applying those lessons learned to their other product lines now.

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I am no expert either, but I do have a million other FFG games, and I am not buying this whole changing card size to save money thing, simple because a lot of other games will still use the mini card sizes.

Lots of other FFG games are still going to use the small card sizes.  So its not like they would have to "re-calibrate" machines or how ever this all works just to print mini cards for Armada.  unless they have dedicated printers per game? 
If all of their games were going away from these mini cards, then yes I could see that.  The new TI4 expansion is not all of the sudden going to standard size cards, just to save money.  which might even be a bad example because that game only has one size.  But if they have other games still printing in mini size, then I see no issue still printing in mini-size.

What about the damage decks?  are these going to standard size as well?  I have seen no mention of them.  If you are keeping these mini, then this is for sure not the reason they changed.  

These bigger cards also use way more paper and ink to print.  That cost would have to be factored in would it not?  In fact the new stuff might cost more just for this fact alone. 

I can see this being the reason for the ship cards going to standard size.  not too many games have those tarot size cards.  and if they do there are not very many of them.  But not the upgrade cards.

To me this is basically saying all that money you spent on ships the past 5 or 6 years...thanks for the money, but it was wasted.  How much would these ships have been with no cards in them and not having to buy sleeves?
not to mention (which lots have) the table space to field a ship with full upgrades will be a nightmare. 

I am not very happy about this change.  I have hundreds and hundreds of sleeves and cards that are now garbage.  I cannot even reuse the 1000+ sleeves I have for the old cards, and now have to buy a new type of sleeves. 
(which I am going to do, but I still want to complain)

I am gladly and willing to buy all the reprinted cards, but to have to buy a new type of sleeve for cards I already have...
Simply the money I've spent on sleeves alone, that are all now useless, is what makes this most annoying. 

The only reason I can see (which someone already mentioned) is they need the room for the new mechanics and rules. 

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8 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

It's not the switching of sizes that costs more, it's the varied sizes and shapes of packaging and the shipping.  A single size simplifies packing and shipping and so reduces costs.

That’s kind of silly if that’s true.  It can’t possibly save them enough to warrant this change?  And I’m sure the savings won’t be passed onto the customer either.  

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48 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

That’s kind of silly if that’s true.  It can’t possibly save them enough to warrant this change?  And I’m sure the savings won’t be passed onto the customer either.  

What's the cheapest paper size to buy?  A4, right?  A5 is half the size but 60% more expensive. 

Here's A3 paper - £8.39 per 500 sheets:

https://www.staples.co.uk/staples-a3-paper-ream-500-sheets/cbs/297904032.html?promoCode=&Effort_Code=WW&Find_Number=297904032&m=0&isSubscription=False

A5 paper - £4.82 per 500 sheets:

https://www.staples.co.uk/multi-purpose-paper/cbs/297932588.html?promoCode=&Effort_Code=WW&Find_Number=297932588&m=0&isSubscription=False

A4 paper - £3.00 per 500 sheets:

https://www.staples.co.uk/a4-copy-paper/cbs/297910580.html

 

What's my point here?  The most common standard size of something is the cheapest to produce, because of economies of scale.  Playing card size is the most common size of small card.  It'll be the cheapest.

 

If it saves them 10p per spaceship or squadron box, and they produce a million boxes, that's £100,000.   

 

No, you might not see the 'savings passed on', but you aren't entitled to see them passed on.

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