Nute Gunray Gencon2020?

[GooeyChewie 372]

5 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

Okay, using the cheapest options and maximizing the Corps, SF, and support slots for all factions:
CIS - B1 x 6 + BX Saboteurs x 3 + STAP x 3 = 579
GAR - Phase 1 x 6, ARC Trooper (strike team with sniper) x 3, AT-RT x 3 = 663
Rebel - Rebel Troopers x 6, Rebel Commandos (strike team with saboteur) x 3, AT-RT x 3 = 543
Empire - Stormtrooper x6, Scout Trooper (strike team with saboteur) x 3, E-Web Heavy Blaster Team x 3 = 567

Please explain how CIS would be more broken than Rebels or Empire, both of which cost fewer points.

Absolutely!

 

The key thing to remember is that we're talking about potential future problems, not existing problems.  We only know units which have been released or spoiled; FFG probably knows about units which won't see the light of day until 2022.  A problem could swiftly come up if CIS receives both a cheaper Support and a relatively cheap Commander.

 

Suppose CIS gets a support in line with the other factions, around 55 points.  That'd drop their total in your calculations to 525, the lowest of any faction.  Then suppose they also got a Commander at 100 points.  Not the cheapest around, but close to it.  Now you've got 13 activations spending 625 points.  What to do with those remaining 175 points?  You could switch the Saboteurs for Snipers, and give all six of your B1s both the extra trooper upgrade and an E-5C heavy upgrade and still have 25 points left over to devote to miscellaneous other upgrades.  Even if that list didn't turn out absolutely busted, I really don't want to see (and I don't think FFG would want to see) a list with 13 activations, 9 of which have heavy weapons upgrades.  Thus, I think FFG might be reluctant to create a low-point Commander option out of concerns that it could cause problems at some point.

 

tl;dr Not problems now, maybe problems later.

[Tris87TJ 79]

4 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

My only real issue with Nute Gunray coming to the game is purely gameplay aesthetic. I've just never seen Nute Gunray as a leader in any capacity. I don't like the idea of the cowardly, sniveling head of a corporation being the most efficient option to "lead" my Separatist forces into battle. And I dislike the idea of the Sepratist meta becoming nothing but Nute Gunray lists just because he's cheap when their faction could really explore and work with the continuing idea of expensive but high power commanders and cheap-ish army units.

If Separatists do get a cheap commander, I'd personally rather see a character or droid that could actually handle themselves on the battlefield. I've been really happy with having Dooku and Grievous so far though.

For him to be dominant he would have to be a lot better then Grievous and Dooku which I don't think would happen.

It would be pretty cool if his model a hologram projection because he's too cowardly to show up.

[Vomikronnoxis 22]

Maybe Lok Durd would make a better choice? He only shows up once in Clone Wars, but he's at least a battlefield general. He's also featured on some in-game tank art IIRC.

[ScummyRebel 5,346]

24 minutes ago, Vomikronnoxis said:

Maybe Lok Durd would make a better choice? He only shows up once in Clone Wars, but he's at least a battlefield general. He's also featured on some in-game tank art IIRC.

You mean the tank crew card where he is in the game? 

[Patrick EWing 10]

22 hours ago, Lochlan said:

thanks to Darth Maul, likely won't get another commander (who might not even be cheap) even announced for at least a few months.  So I think it's safe to say we're minimum 6 months out from a third CIS commander.  

Except... if they follow the same release pattern, we're going to get a cheap generic one a month or two after Maul releases. I'd bet on a tactical droid.

[Lochlan 1,034]

8 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

I really don't want to see (and I don't think FFG would want to see) a list with 13 activations, 9 of which have heavy weapons upgrades.

What, like this?

798/800 (13 activations)
Commanders:
 - Leia Organa (90): Esteemed Leader (5) = 95
Operative:
 - R2-D2 (35): Comms Relay (5) = 40
Corps:
 - 2× Rebel Troopers (40): R5 Astromech Droid (8) = 96
 - 3× Rebel Troopers (40): DLT-20A Trooper (26) = 198
Special Forces:
 - 3× Commando Strike Team (20): DH-447 Sniper (28) = 144
Support:
 - 3× AT-RT (55): Rotary Blaster (20) = 225

Or maybe this?

798/800 (14 activations)
Commanders:
 - Rebel Officer = 50
Operative:
 - R2-D2 = 35
Corps:
 - 5× Rebel Troopers (40): Z-6 Trooper (22) = 310
 - Rebel Troopers = 40
Special Forces:
 - 3× Commando Strike Team (20): Proton Charge Saboteur (26) = 138
Support:
 - 3× AT-RT (55): Rotary Blaster (20) = 225

Or even this?

797/800 (13 activations)
Commanders:
 - General Veers (80): Aggressive Tactics (10) = 90
Corps:
 - Shoretroopers (52): T-21B Trooper (32) = 84
 - 2× Shoretroopers (52): T-21B Trooper (32), Medical Droid (19) = 206
 - 3× DF-90 Mortar Trooper (36) = 108
Special Forces:
 - 3× Strike Team (20): DLT-19x Sniper (28) = 144
Support:
 - 3× E-Web Team (55) = 165

Oh wait, that last one didn't have 9 heavy weapon upgrades.  Here we go:

797/800 (13 activations)
Commanders:
 - General Veers = 80
Corps:
 - 6× Stormtroopers (44): DLT-19 Stormtrooper (24) = 408
Special Forces:
 - 3× Strike Team (20): DLT-19x Sniper (28) = 144
Support:
 - 3× E-Web Team (55) = 165

You are describing something that is already possible as some sort of terrifying nightmare future scenario.  Well, it's already here, and it clearly hasn't blown up the meta.  The newest thing in any of those lists is, what, R2-D2?  So it has even been here for a while.

[Vomikronnoxis 22]

53 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

You mean the tank crew card where he is in the game? 

Yes, that's where I saw him! (I don't have the tank, so I saw it in some product shots I guess). Maybe this sort of cameo means he'll never be in the game, though?

[Vomikronnoxis 22]

4 minutes ago, Patrick EWing said:

Except... if they follow the same release pattern, we're going to get a cheap generic one a month or two after Maul releases. I'd bet on a tactical droid.

Tactical droid could be a fun model.

[Lochlan 1,034]

7 minutes ago, Patrick EWing said:

Except... if they follow the same release pattern, we're going to get a cheap generic one a month or two after Maul releases. I'd bet on a tactical droid.

If they announce specialist packs that include generic officers today, then it is possible we will get them in less than 6 months.  Maybe like 5 months.

[Patrick EWing 10]

2 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

If they announce specialist packs that include generic officers today, then it is possible we will get them in less than 6 months.  Maybe like 5 months.

Sure, but it's not like Maul is coming out this weekend. Maul is probably like 3 months out at least. So it's not going to be a long wait after Maul hits the table.

I think the Emperor came out in November and the specialists were in January. Should hopefully be similar this time.

I hope we get Maul and the tactical droid announced this weekend. Maybe even tonight!

[Lochlan 1,034]

2 minutes ago, Patrick EWing said:

Sure, but it's not like Maul is coming out this weekend. Maul is probably like 3 months out at least.

That's why I said 5 months.  There have only been 6 expansions ever that were actually released less than 4 months (120 days) after they were announced.  Assuming Maul is announced today, that means at least 4 months (likely) before he is available.  I wouldn't expect anything else for at least another month after that.

[Patrick EWing 10]

Just now, Lochlan said:

That's why I said 5 months.  There have only been 6 expansions ever that were actually released less than 4 months (120 days) after they were announced.  Assuming Maul is announced today, that means at least 4 months (likely) before he is available.  I wouldn't expect anything else for at least another month after that.

Okay, the way I read it... it sounded like you were blaming Maul's release on delaying a cheap commander by 6 months. I think I just misunderstood a little. 🍻

[Lochlan 1,034]

2 minutes ago, Patrick EWing said:

Okay, the way I read it... it sounded like you were blaming Maul's release on delaying a cheap commander by 6 months. I think I just misunderstood a little. 🍻

Well, I'm not NOT blaming Maul 😆

But that's just because we should have gotten a new commander instead of Maul, which would have matched the GCW release order.  Nobody else got a second operative before getting a third commander.

[Mokoshkana 752]

6 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Well, I'm not NOT blaming Maul 😆

But that's just because we should have gotten a new commander instead of Maul, which would have matched the GCW release order.  Nobody else got a second operative before getting a third commander.

GAR has two operatives and two commanders at the moment 😏

[arnoldrew 1,713]

9 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Well, I'm not NOT blaming Maul 😆

But that's just because we should have gotten a new commander instead of Maul, which would have matched the GCW release order.  Nobody else got a second operative before getting a third commander.

One of the OT factions did. I can't remember which came out first, but we had Palp combined with Chewie and Han combined with Boba come out months apart. Doing an Op/Co release followed by a Co/Op release has precedent.

[Lochlan 1,034]

Just now, arnoldrew said:

One of the OT factions did. I can't remember which came out first, but we had Palp combined with Chewie and Han combined with Boba come out months apart. Doing an Op/Co release followed by a Co/Op release has precedent.

Rebels got Luke>Leia>Han>Chewie

Empire got Vader>Veers>Boba>Palpatine

After four releases, both had 3 Commanders, 1 Operative.  With the presumptive Anakin/Maul announcement, GAR will be at 3 Commander/1 Operative (plus R2), whereas CIS will be at 2 Commander/2 Operative.

5 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

GAR has two operatives and two commanders at the moment 😏

Don't even get me started on two factions getting an almost auto-include operative (just because he's so cheap) when the other two (which just happen to be the two I play...) get nothing.

[Patrick EWing 10]

I'm hoping we get an Imperial probe droid operative we can place anywhere on the table and have it self destruct to do 4 automatic wounds to a target model, or 4 hits to a unit. 35 points.

I haven't thought this through very well, but I think you get my intention.

There's also a small chance Maul's droid(s) could be a cheap activation. 

[arnoldrew 1,713]

7 minutes ago, Patrick EWing said:

There's also a small chance Maul's droid(s) could be a cheap activation.

It's almost certainly a Counterpart like Iden's droid.

[the eigensheep 65]

On 7/28/2020 at 4:09 AM, Vector Strike said:

Dude, all this nutting over Nute can't be healthy...

Should we start calling him Nut Gunray instead? Maybe throw an umlaut on there so it's still pronounced correctly?

 

 

 

Edited July 29 by the eigensheep

[Steck638 117]

On 7/28/2020 at 10:31 AM, Darth Sanguis said:

I was on this boat until I started getting more games in with CIS. 

The issue is the B1s. They make droid armies so efficient. They have garbage stats, yes, but they are under costed for how resilient they can be. Even with AI attack, it's very easy to coordinate orders, and with a baseline HP of 6, with heavy cover, and LoS blocking terrain, it can be downright difficult to take full units of B1s off the board. 

CIS getting a "cheap" commander could mean serious power creep. It's likely why we haven't seen one yet like every other faction. 

As much as I want a Nute Gunray commander at 90-100 points with some sort of keyword that allows more B1s, I understand how it may cause some unbalance in the game. 
 

This is more in line with how I feel. Two melee commanders leaves the strategy for CIS just a little stale. (In my opinion). I'm looking forward to the Tactical droids which should offer a more diverse set of commands. 

I see the argument, but grievous with 4 B1s, gun upgrades and 2 coms is almost 100 points more than Leia and 4 rebs with gun upgrades. If B1s are too efficient shouldn't they be adjusted instead of grievous and dooku costing more? And does that mean grievous isn't a bit better than commander luke? Because I find he is better in most ways on the table and without delving into math.

I think it was more FFG wanted to get us the thematic commanders first, because dooku and grievous are who I think of when I think of the seppies. And I appreciate that, but I also want to try out multiple new options effectively on the table, and that's hard to do when you are spending roughly 450pts on your HQ and core. I don't think the costs are off on anything, or that they are padding one units cost to make up for something else being cheap, but I am also getting impatient for a cheap commander. I really would rather see some other characters over Nute, but he's a fan favorite and ill take him.

 

Edit: fixed spelling and autocorrect error

Edit2: another autocorrect error... is today over yet?

Edited July 29 by Steck638

[Mokoshkana 752]

10 minutes ago, Steck638 said:

I think it was more FFG wanted to get us the thematic commanders first, because dooku and grievous are who I think of when I think of the seppies. And I apricots that,

Mmmmm, I like apricots 😊

[Haslamm1 22]

Dammit no Nute this time. Have to start this up again for the next one

[Memorare 206]

1 hour ago, Haslamm1 said:

Dammit no Nute this time. Have to start this up again for the next one

It's a tragedy.

Nute Gunray 2021 or Bust! 

[Darth Sanguis 6,327]

17 hours ago, Steck638 said:

I see the argument, but grievous with 4 B1s, gun upgrades and 2 coms is almost 100 points more than Leia and 4 rebs with gun upgrades. If B1s are too efficient shouldn't they be adjusted instead of grievous and dooku costing more? And does that mean grievous isn't a bit better than commander luke? Because I find he is better in most ways on the table and without delving into math.

I think what keeps B1s from becoming OP is the rank cap, so I don't think they need adjusted just yet, (we may see issues once a cheap commander, strike teams, and a cheaper support come along, but we'll see.)All I'm saying is B1s give CIS order control at a fairly low skill cost. They also give a shockingly durable unit as the main corps unit. (I usually end up bringing all 48 minis, it takes a moment to chew through all that.) 

That said, I also think Grievous is a bit under costed. (I can't say if he's better than Luke, I tend to think force abilities are quite good at shaking things up.) I will say that I think Grievous is a little under costed, personally I think the persistent scale effect on Grievous is insanely valuable. I'm still blown away how easy it is to keep Grievous out of sight then pop out in a single round using scale and get him into the action. 
 

17 hours ago, Steck638 said:

I think it was more FFG wanted to get us the thematic commanders first, because dooku and grievous are who I think of when I think of the seppies. And I appreciate that, but I also want to try out multiple new options effectively on the table, and that's hard to do when you are spending roughly 450pts on your HQ and core. I don't think the costs are off on anything, or that they are padding one units cost to make up for something else being cheap, but I am also getting impatient for a cheap commander. I really would rather see some other characters over Nute, but he's a fan favorite and ill take him.

Could be. But when I think of hordes of B1s, Dekkas, and AATs I think of good ole Nute Gunray. 

[arnoldrew 1,713]

On 7/29/2020 at 10:07 AM, Patrick EWing said:

There's also a small chance Maul's droid(s) could be a cheap activation. 

 

On 7/29/2020 at 10:15 AM, arnoldrew said:

It's almost certainly a Counterpart like Iden's droid.

Looks like I was wrong and they are actually a Special Forces unit. Who knows if they will be cheap, though.