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CapitanGuinea

Ideas for a 3rd edition

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I like custom design the gameplay, and understanding the limits ffg has producing her stuff I learned to make the ones my group like (expanded universe and legend but also disneyverse1) myself. A thing i learned is that is best to separate card for ships and pilots. Id est you create basically the card for the ship with manifacturer logo (incom, sienar, koensay, etc) and when you build the Factions you simply list what class of ship is available to who. Next you have the pilots (cards similar to crew upgrade stating Pilot Skill and eventually some special rules and if the pilots has Talents and/or Force upgrades). That give us a revamp to the game because we could balance ships fairly well with a math algoritm, and would be quite free to develop characters as they should depicted (as per Mara Jade and Marek Steele both force sensitive and with the title of Emperor Hands). Today we played the old republic, enjoying the final version of jedi titles (apprentice, padawan, jedi knight, jedi master) against the siths (aspirant, assassin, apprentice, and Dark Lord) and we all were amazed how this system using mostly the ssme physical stuff worked so well. Imho we would never come back to the original game. What do you think about such a custom as a development?

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...and then you get Star Trek Attack Wing, where everyone played the same pilot with busted ability in every match.
Personally did not play attack wing more than a single demo match, but that's basically what I heard happened from someone who used to play quite a bit. Maybe some other posters here can corroborate this?
Anyway, it's just open to abuse. Kind of like with upgrades on certain ship, we'd just find the best pilot-ship combo, and that would be it. All ship would take much more playtest because you would need to test them with every pilot to see if a particular combo is abusive. 
And there's pilot that really only make sense on their particular ship, if not they become kind of useless ( Major Vynder on any ship that doesn't get a disarm token? Useless...) or kinda broken (Whisper on any ships with 3 green die and lots of HP, yes please!)
So, i'd say it's a bad idea and would require too much rebalance, for not much more addition to the gameplay aspect of the game.

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so basically are you saying that in a open-wide ambient, with most of the community armed with competitive play mindset the game experience would be spoiled.

In effect it is a risk. In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win". We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay. I understand that there is a risk that strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

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1 hour ago, CapitanGuinea said:

so basically are you saying that in a open-wide ambient, with most of the community armed with competitive play mindset the game experience would be spoiled.

In effect it is a risk. In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win". We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay. I understand that there is a risk that strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

You don’t want to count on people being wholesome for the health of a game. I remember playing Counterstrike back in the early 2000s for the first time... I didn’t even know how I was dying, or what to do differently.

 

I didn’t play a second time. 

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2 hours ago, CapitanGuinea said:

In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win". We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay. I understand that there is a risk that strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

Then in that case, feel free to homebrew. I know a guy in my area who has gone down deep into that rabbit hole and run wild with HotAC with tons of custom missions and new ships + interactions. Go wild with your ideas if you’d like.

But yeah, the main game has to be balanced assuming all types of people are rolling in.

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4 hours ago, CapitanGuinea said:

so basically are you saying that in a open-wide ambient, with most of the community armed with competitive play mindset the game experience would be spoiled.

In effect it is a risk. In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win". We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay. I understand that there is a risk that strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

Putting nearly any pilot on nearly any ship is a balance nightmare, and folks onhere have pretty easily been able to come up with some of the most disgustingly powerful stuff.  It'd be a really bad way to build a deathmatch X-Wing game, "standard" tournament style play.

That said, while I've mostly just been into standard 200/6, I'm a firm believer in there being more ways to play the game.  Building up manufacturer and faction and pilot and force seems like it'd be a lot of fun.  Maybe there are campaigns, where your characters are leveling up over time, developing skills and adding upgrades.  That's something I know a lot of folks want to have better support for in X-Wing.  It'd also be fun, no doubt, to take that structure and build some thematic fights that are only slightly balanced.  Having some structure and guidelines for ways to do things like this is going to be great for the right group of folks.

So again, go for it.

But...  For the way that a lot of folks play X-Wing, it's just not going to work.

//

That said... Hrm... it's an interesting thought experiment to figure out a way to make it work that could still be mostly balanced.

I think I'd do it by having each pilot have some complicated rating systems.  Say Red/Blue/Yellow.  I don't know what the ratings would mean, but maybe like offense/defense/utility.  Maybe someone who could go into essentially any ship would be 1/1/1.  Wedge would be something like a 4/1/3, so he can only go onto a ship which allows high-offense pilots, but also that have a bit of a utility budget.  This would probably be an X-Wing, due to iconicness, but 2-red ships like A-Wings and Z-95s probably also have high offense budgets.  Something like a YT-1300 or VCX probably would have a pretty low offense budget.  A K-Wing might have a low utility budget  Basically, there'd have to be a lot of structure to prevent the most absurd combos, by ensuring that really powerful pilots stay only on kinda average ships.

On top of that, costs would be a bit of a mess.  Wedge or whoever wouldn't be able to just cost 8 points, he'd probably need to scale based on the chassis.  Maybe each pilot has a cost factor, and a ship will tell you how many points you pay per factor step.  A factor-three pilot would cost more to add to a TIE Defender than to a TIE Fighter, for example.

It's late, and I'm not really invested in the goal, but I think it'd have to be really complicated with a lot of potential hoops to jump through.  Then if any group of friends decide they just want to ignore them, fine.  Do what you want.  Just so long as they don't get mad at folks who prefer the more rigid structure for better balance.

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18 hours ago, CapitanGuinea said:

In effect it is a risk. We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay.

It was something FFG looked at for 2.0 and discarded as "not a great idea."

In the long run, every pilot could be in every chassis, if FFG starts to just move pilots around as a way to generate new material.  But, as has been stated above, this keeps a much better handle on balance.

Quote

In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win".

Well, if this were true, 2.0 XWM wouldn't exist.

Because this is true:

Quote

strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

1.0 XWM wasn't in that bad of shape if you cut loose some of the egregious design errors.  But no one wanted bans, and players that "had" to win, couldn't/wouldn't set aside the overpowered stuff.

Lastly, we already have players who want to price every frigging upgrade per-pilot.  Can you imaging the chaos of pricing an upgrade-pilot-chassis love-triangle????

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18 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Can you imaging the chaos of pricing an upgrade-pilot-chassis love-triangle????

The one way would be to get rid of points altogether and go to Quick Builds only. Probably would need to also get rid of stand alone upgrade cards.

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Posted (edited)

I only want two things in a 3rd edition. For cannons to be able to fire alongside the primary weapons as a basal rule, and for missiles and torpedoes to be moved into a 3+  range band. They should be stand off weapons and inside 2-1 range there's only dogfighting. 

Edited by All Shields Forward

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1 hour ago, Nspace said:

The one way would be to get rid of points altogether and go to Quick Builds only. Probably would need to also get rid of stand alone upgrade cards.

That doesn't get away from pricing them correctly.   It just changes the units from Points to Threat.

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23 hours ago, CapitanGuinea said:

so basically are you saying that in a open-wide ambient, with most of the community armed with competitive play mindset the game experience would be spoiled.

In effect it is a risk. In my group we are all friend and enjoy each other company so we would never try to over do something just to "win". We are, after all, very akiend to a rpg group. And we like a x-wing game more open to do such a gameplay. I understand that there is a risk that strangers will spoil the systems fighting hard each other...

Most of the community is not hyper competetive, its just most of the people on this board. Tournament players kinda bullied a lot of the for-fun players of the boards at the end of 1st edition so theyre now over repressented.

 

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as to the OP:

Personally I prefer pilot cards over chassis cards because theyre easier to price and balance.

If you want more diverse pilot/ship options a more robust upgrade system would be how Id prefer to get there.  

For example every ship in the game should be able to take mods, but some mods are busted on say Fenn Rau.   the solution is to have classes of mods.   for example if ships could have classifications like "Factory Standard", "Modular", and "Built from scratch".   A "Factory standard" ship could take only a mod from its limited category, a modular ship could take most mods, while a "Built from scratch" ship could take basicaly any mod. you could even have some mods be factory only or modular only, which could help define factions going forward.

"built from scratch" only mods could be dangerous gambles or have drawbacks like the Fireball has.

"modular" mods could be traditional no risk enhancements like shield upgrade.

"Factory" mods could be minimal tweaks that thematically fit, like targeting computer or a once per game boost.

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7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Most of the community is not hyper competetive, its just most of the people on this board. Tournament players kinda bullied a lot of the for-fun players of the boards at the end of 1st edition so theyre now over repressented.

 

In my experience, the tournament crowd inevitably takes over discussions of any game that has any kind of competitive scene.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, clockworkspider said:

In my experience, the tournament crowd inevitably takes over discussions of any game that has any kind of competitive scene.

Sure, people do make janky lists, or repaints, or even fully disassemble ships to make 'uglies.' But X-wing's community really does uniquely bias super hard towards the tournament scene. I have played in other competitive wargames and cardgames, as well as fighting games and shooters REALLY competitively, and haven't encountered a community quite like X-wing's. I also think its critical to remember that in 2020 some of the largest games on the market right now, to the point they are cracking into the mainstream, are games with a heavily competitive scene that most of the active community aren't part of. 

There is a lack of emphasis, or even active push away from, creativity in X-wing, such as how most unique effects that make fundamental changes to the game are overpriced while more generic effects that create extreme dice consistency or give you more control over your own ships are underpriced, the overt design goal of making naked 'vanilla' ships generally optimal and most upgrades value losses without being on the 'perfect' ship, or even the fact that the models are pre-assembled and painted, and there is no focus on making 'lore' for your personal collection like there is in other wargames. 40k Discussion, for example, is extremely casual friendly and includes a lot of discussion about lore, painting, modeling, collection advice, advice on how to make thematic lists, and talking about balance from a casual standpoint. This is... not as common in X-wing by a country mile. Some of that is inevitable (after all, this is a licensed game, so people can explore the deep lore in more general star-wars communities) but some of it is just.... weird that it isn't here. List/Deckbuilding days with a unique creative limitation or custom creation contests are a big part of other games (to the point they get their own sub-communities, like reddit's /r/customhearthstone or /r/customagic) and even other FFG games focused on a competitive scene like Netrunner had them, but that is absent in X-wing in part because 'unique' or 'creative' is sorta seen as... bad in this community. Even 'official' cards that are too weird are disliked after all.

That, combined with the fact that a bad game of X-wing is way worse than a bad game of warhammer, and the fact its harder to 'train yourself up' in X-wing compared to say... a super competitive videogame where you can more easily practice online, is going to heavily bias the people who stick around in the community to people who are well past the phase where they don't know the game inside and out.

To be clear, this doesn't mean its bad X-wing is so competitive. It is just that a community and game that 'rejects' casual play isn't going to last. Plenty of hardcore competitive games find a balance where there are just enough tools and spaces for more casual players to engage with them and grow in them, and I think X-wing missed the mark there pretty hard, which is why the community is so unusually tournament scene focused: Its probably most of the community at this point.

Edited by dezzmont

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8 hours ago, dezzmont said:

even the fact that the models are pre-assembled and painted, and there is no focus on making 'lore' for your personal collection like there is in other wargames.

Some good stuff in there, even if I don't agree with some of it. However, I did want to focus on this for a second. One of the major reasons that I chose X-Wing over other tabletop games is precisely because the models are pre-assembled and painted. I'm a casual player and I don't have the time or desire to go through the whole process of building and painting plastic models. The fact that I can roll into my FLGS, buy a new ship, open it and put it directly into my list is awesome. It means I don't have to wait to play with my shiny, new toy and I can talk to the other players about flying it immediately instead of next week sometime once I have sniped the parts out, filed them down, glued them together and gone through the long process of cleaning, priming, base coating, detailing, washing and basing it.

That being said, I appreciate the artistry and skill of the people who are willing to do all of that. If there is one thing that I'd love to see from FFG, it would be what I've seen with other games with pre-assembled and painted models: a line of unpainted models released alongside the painted ones. It could open up the community while still keeping the game accessible to casual players.

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2 hours ago, Nspace said:

One of the major reasons that I chose X-Wing over other tabletop games is precisely because the models are pre-assembled and painted. I'm a casual player and I don't have the time or desire to go through the whole process of building and painting plastic models. The fact that I can roll into my FLGS, buy a new ship, open it and put it directly into my list is awesome

I actually hate painting myself, so it was part of the appeal to me as well, but after playing X-wing for a bit I did realize there was a significant cost (especially combined with the fact that many interesting abilities are gated behind canon characters).  A lot of times things aren't straight better/worse, but have ramifications: not requiring painting makes the game more accessable, but makes your ability to have your lists be something 'yours' weaker. In other wargames naming and theming your list visually is a fun little thing that makes it yours even if it is a bog standard list, being able to name the Chapter/Hive Fleet/Craftworld/Whatever and say where they are from in the universe is cool, and while you can do that with X-wing too it definitely isn't really part of the game's culture, where people WILL ask you about your custom army's lore before or after a match in a tournament in 40k.

That said, yeah what X-wing gains from it being a complete ready to go product is extreme. I am sure it wouldn't be half as big if it wasn't so easily giftable, or if you couldn't impulse buy a product while milling about for a tournament.

2 hours ago, Nspace said:

If there is one thing that I'd love to see from FFG, it would be what I've seen with other games with pre-assembled and painted models: a line of unpainted models released alongside the painted ones. It could open up the community while still keeping the game accessible to casual players.

An unpainted line would be neat, but considering the trouble FFG has had recently with moving plastic I am not sure this is realistic. I could see it being an option with newer products, especially Clone Wars products where the Clone Legions are a thing and it wouldn't be crazy hard to make up your own.

One weird thing I thought of, and I don't know if it would actually be that appealing, would be to have cards that contain character abilities and a note they 'count as' a character, but which have a blank name and sub-title and art you could print over or something. Pre-FFG L5R kiiiinda did something like this with the 'Soul of X' characters who were the same card with a different name and story because the game took place over a span of time where staple character cards would represent people who were long dead, but if you liked your original card you could still use it and some people did, so there is precident for people caring about this. I am not sure how much demand there would be in X-wing considering how a lot of the lore focus in the game is on making character abilities that evoke the movies or stories more than they are about you doing your own worldbuilding too and caring your own custom rebel cell has a pilot as deadly as Wedge or whatever, and perhaps it would be simpler to just have a service to print a totally custom card on demand that was tournament legal as long as you had the original.

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I tried Warhammer but was drawn to X-Wing for the theme, and prepainted prebuilt ready to use models. And not looking up lots of values in books, it was all on the cardboard.

 

But after a few years i decided to paint over some models using my warhammer paints, and actually lots of players repaint their ships to make very unique and personalized squadrons. You just dont have too.

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Scum4Life said:

But after a few years i decided to paint over some models using my warhammer paints, and actually lots of players repaint their ships to make very unique and personalized squadrons. You just dont have too.

Right and I am not saying its a bad thing. There are just ramifications to that for a community.

In Warhammer no matter what you can connect with your opponent based on your (almost) purely thematic choice of visuals for your forces. You both HAD to put some thought in what your generic unit was going to represent specifically in the world, even if it was as simple as 'Turquoise is my favorite color and I like ice planets so my space marines will have snow covered bases!" Even with canon armies, if I see someone rolling in with Black Templars or Salamanders, I know they care about the Black Templars or Salamanders because they chose to paint hundreds of minis up like that. 

X-wing certainly gains a lot from being a ready to go product (Again, part of why I fell out of 40k is painting is a big ask and I literally can't do it for more than half an hour at a time, and I LOVE going to tournament night and cracking open a new ship to play that night), but it loses the universality of thought put into personalizing your minis which every player of unpainted wargames with mostly generic characters can connect on, which is one part of many as to why the game's community focuses so hard on tournament play.

Edited by dezzmont

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8 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Right and I am not saying its a bad thing. There are just ramifications to that for a community.

In Warhammer no matter what you can connect with your opponent based on your (almost) purely thematic choice of visuals for your forces. You both HAD to put some thought in what your generic unit was going to represent specifically in the world, even if it was as simple as 'Turquoise is my favorite color and I like ice planets so my space marines will have snow covered bases!" Even with canon armies, if I see someone rolling in with Black Templars or Salamanders, I know they care about the Black Templars or Salamanders because they chose to paint hundreds of minis up like that. 

X-wing certainly gains a lot from being a ready to go product (Again, part of why I fell out of 40k is painting is a big ask and I literally can't do it for more than half an hour at a time, and I LOVE going to tournament night and cracking open a new ship to play that night), but it loses the universality of thought put into personalizing your minis which every player of unpainted wargames with mostly generic characters can connect on, which is one part of many as to why the game's community focuses so hard on tournament play.

Ah I see what your saying.

Its not that we can't paint the minis.

Its that painting them isn't a shared experience for all players, and that painting doesn't have to link to anything in particular, like a space marine chapters, so its arguably less meaningfull than a whole army, even if someone custom paints a Koska Frost Fire Spray.

 

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@dezzmont are you familiar with "the 8 kinds of fun"? Coined by Marc LeBlanc.

Every game makes some kinds easier than others. Xwing is sensation, challenge and submission heavy, really weak in narrative and fantasy, and at best faction dependent wrt expression.

I've started writing a blog post on it close to 2 years ago, but never finished it. The topic keeps coming up and seems to be one of the most important causes of friction between players. 

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Posted (edited)

Ooo that is delightful yeah. Great way to break it down @GreenDragoon

I am more familiar with Timmy, Johnny, and Spike, but this is a good complement. The fun thing about theories like this is that they are great critical lenses more than hard truth and mutually incompatable. This focuses more on the game, while the MTG trio focuses more on motivation, because there is often bleedover. So I think I am going to definitely incorporate this into my lexicon!

I think this may be why people care more about specific ships being bad than factions being bad. Casuals are often faction committed, but generally most factions have lists open to them that can do well in a casual space even if they don't do amazing in tournament play. Hardcore Spike types are just gunna jump factions anyway, to them they are purely mechanistic functions and they really don't care. But casuals seeking fantasy are often looking for specific pilots or ships they have an emotional attachment too being viable when some ships just plain aren't viable, and people looking to be expressive likewise often get frustrated by how locked down most upgrade cards are. 

Edited by dezzmont

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On 7/25/2020 at 4:20 PM, Vontoothskie said:

Most of the community is not hyper competetive, its just most of the people on this board. Tournament players kinda bullied a lot of the for-fun players of the boards at the end of 1st edition so theyre now over repressented.

 

 

On 7/26/2020 at 12:11 AM, clockworkspider said:

In my experience, the tournament crowd inevitably takes over discussions of any game that has any kind of competitive scene.

Yeah, my experience agrees with that. Even if most people knew each other and mostly played janky/fun stuff, as the game grew and event became larger, we had more and more people attending. And some of these people we didn't see often would just go online, play the most broken stuff and just play to win at all cost. Naturally, that kinda breaks the fun of the event because you always feel like you have no chance to win if you don't bring efficient stuff yourself, and so an arms race kinda develops for tournament.
So even a single Win-at-all-cost player can kinda impact a whole community, even if you try to keep it in check and not give in to the temptation to play the best stuff. 

I just think it's something that happens with a lot of game, and as a game designer you just have to take that in consideration. It's ok though, because so far Xwing 2.0 has been very good with that I think.

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